Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Yet would anyone say that Randy Couture couldn't "really fight" in a situation where there are no rules? I wouldn't.




I find it interesting that you believe that considering that the thread you linked to almost unanimously believed that Boztepe ducked the Gracies, not the other way around. Thanks. That was my own opinion formed on the letters, I didn't read the 5(+) pages of comments after it to help me make up my mind.




I think its noteworthy that the Gracies have a long history of taking challenge matches and competitions, and putting their reputations and their art on the line.

Boztepe? Not so much. He doesn't do competitions.



Well like I said earlier, do we really doubt that professional fighters can fight outside the ring? You really think a professional boxer couldn't really knock someone on their **** in a confrontation? Not at all.

I don't think anyone has suggested that at all, and it's certainly not me.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

You are basing street vs ring on a fight that didn't happen?

The Gracie's were always carefull picking matches for their fighters.

Lol nicely put, but it's hard to base it on a street fight that actually did happen between a TMA Master and MMA champion no?

 

[Hanzou]

I wouldn't.

So do you disagree, or agree with the marines? I mean, I agree that a ring fight isn't always the same as a real fight, but does that really change the fact that professional fighters can actually fight?

Thanks. That was my own opinion formed on the letters, I didn't read the 5(+) pages of comments after it to help me make up my mind.

I just find it interesting that you reached a completely different conclusion than the majority people in that thread.

He doesn't do competitions.

He doesnt do challenge fights either. The Gracies are well known to do both.

I don't think anyone has suggested that at all, and it's certainly not me.

My mistake then.

 

[drop bear]

Lol nicely put, but it's hard to base it on a street fight that actually did happen between a TMA Master and MMA champion no?

Which is my point about competition. It may not be the data we want. But it is better than making stuff up based on a perfect scenario. Which gets done a lot.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BbizTBYs-rQ

 

[Hanzou]

Mixed Martial Arts does what it says on the tin...it's a mixture of anything that works in a fight from any martial arts style, simples. There is no one style that works better, there is no style that doesn't contain something you can use. MMA'ers who aren't necessarily fighters btw ( and if they are fighters they may fight under a variety of rules ie amateur, semi pro etc so aren't all in the UFC which while a big company is just that a company not a definition of MMA). I don't see why there is a need for a discussion on 'which TMAs work and which don't' in MMA because all of the techniques, yep all, come from one TMA or another.

Well that's not necessarily true. For example, I don't see a lot of MMA fighters using Shaolin Long Fist, Hapkido, or Ninjutsu.

They don't take everything from every style. They take what is tested as effective in the octagon, and fuse it.

Which is the crux of this thread; Why aren't we seeing arts like Shaolin Long Fist, Hapkido, or Ninjutsu in the octagon? Why is nearly every fighter in MMA using pretty much the same core of 4-5 styles?

I know we've gone off track a bit, but that really is the point.

 

[jezr74]

Well that's not necessarily true. For example, I don't see a lot of MMA fighters using Shaolin Long Fist, Hapkido, or Ninjutsu.

They don't take everything from every style. They take what is tested as effective in the octagon, and fuse it.

Which is the crux of this thread; Why aren't we seeing arts like Shaolin Long Fist, Hapkido, or Ninjutsu in the octagon? Why is nearly every fighter in MMA using pretty much the same core of 4-5 styles?

I know we've gone off track a bit, but that really is the point.

Because that's the sport it is designed for. I don't see Hapkido, Ninjutsu or MMA in the boxing ring either, and don't expect it. Same way I don't see soccer balls used in an American Football game. (but some of the skills may be interchangeable)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Early on we saw Steve Jenum in the ring. He was a Bussey Ninjutsu guy. (Bussey was a Hapkido and Budo Taijutsu teacher) Over seas Anthony Netzler entered the cage and he was a Budo Taijutsu guy. There are a few more. Some won, some lost. While we have not seen anyone from Hapkido I believe I just watched the UfC on Saturday and one gentleman listed his background as Kung Fu in the introduction. He looked like an mma guy but... that is what was listed. What we do see is that regardless of who enters they make sure now a day's that they have a developed ground and striking game. Very few people could win now without both!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

We also have Benson Henderson in the UFC right now with a combination of Tae Kwon Do and Wrestling. There are more with a TMA background and have been a lot more. I will give it to you thought that BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai are the dominant styles shown in the cage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why aren't we seeing arts like Shaolin Long Fist, ... in the octagon?

If you look at Sanda/Sanshou tournament, you will see a lot of long fist and Shuai-Chiao guys there. The long fist system has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, ..., front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, ... those tools needed in Sanda/Sanshou rule set. The reason that Sanda/Shanshou guys don't compete in MMA because their take downs skill won't get proper reward in the MMA rule set. Also the Sanda/Sanshou guys think the "hit and run mobility" is as important as the "ground game" in a self-defense or street fight situation.

 

[jezr74]

Well that's not necessarily true. For example, I don't see a lot of MMA fighters using Shaolin Long Fist, Hapkido, or Ninjutsu.

They don't take everything from every style. They take what is tested as effective in the octagon, and fuse it.

Which is the crux of this thread; Why aren't we seeing arts like Shaolin Long Fist, Hapkido, or Ninjutsu in the octagon? Why is nearly every fighter in MMA using pretty much the same core of 4-5 styles?

I know we've gone off track a bit, but that really is the point.

You know, another possible reason (assuming your assumption is correct) is that more likely the people attracted to MMA will just do MMA and have no background in any other style. So it's possible that in a few years time there will be no contenders with a back ground in judo or bjj either. Just a mixture of moves from differing styles taught in a way that enhances their cage fighting taught purely in a MMA school.

Below lists what I assume is the leading backgrounds for UFC contenders.
http://www.ufc.com/discover/fighter/martialArtsStyles

 

[Hanzou]

Because that's the sport it is designed for. I don't see Hapkido, Ninjutsu or MMA in the boxing ring either, and don't expect it. Same way I don't see soccer balls used in an American Football game. (but some of the skills may be interchangeable)

Bjj isn't designed for the ring either, yet it excels there.

Keep in mind, there is nothing in MMA rules that prohibits what Hapkido, Ninjutsu, or Long Fist does.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Keep in mind, there is nothing in MMA rules that prohibits what ... Long Fist does.

In the following 2 clips, these 2 American guys used only long fist and Shuai-Chiao. Their jab, cross, hook, uppercut can be effective. Their take down can be effective too. So to say that long fist and Shuai-Chiao has not been tested in the ring is not true.

 

[K-man]

I will give it to you thought that BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai are the dominant styles shown in the cage.

All of which were developed for competition.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

Bjj isn't designed for the ring either, yet it excels there.

Keep in mind, there is nothing in MMA rules that prohibits what Hapkido, Ninjutsu, or Long Fist does.

Yeah it does, it goes really well when the game goes to the ground. When it's stand up, I see the highlights of other styles excelling. Are strikes taught in bjj to an extent it would be reliable in the cage? Or would it be preferred to use say boxing? I'm assuming that BJJ is not used purely in the cage and like any other competitor would need to round up on other arts as well.

I honestly don't know the ratio of say submissions Vs. KOs. I'd speculate the submissions are higher since I'd thin it would be the easier game plan than going for a knock out.

 

[Hanzou]

If you look at Sanda/Sanshou tournament, you will see a lot of long fist and Shuai-Chiao guys there. The long fist system has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, ..., front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, ... those tools needed in Sanda/Sanshou rule set. The reason that Sanda/Shanshou guys don't compete in MMA because their take downs skill won't get proper reward in the MMA rule set. Also the Sanda/Sanshou guys think the "hit and run mobility" is as important as the "ground game" in a self-defense or street fight situation.

Despite its traditional roots, Sanda/Sanshou looks just like kickboxing.

Sanda/Sanshou is becoming a major kickboxing style in MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

In the following 2 clips, these 2 American guys used only long fist and Shuai-Chiao. Their jab, cross, hook, uppercut can be effective. Their take down can be effective too. So to say that long fist and Shuai-Chiao has not been tested in the ring is not true.

Honestly if you told me that was standard MMA, I wouldn't have known the difference.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Despite its traditional roots, Sanda/Sanshou looks just like kickboxing.

Sanda/Sanshou is becoming a major kickboxing style in MMA.

When you throw a

- roundhouse kick and your opponent moves back, you will follow by a side kick.
- jab and your opponent moves back, you will followed by a cross or hook.

IMO, that's not just look like kickboxing. It's natural transition no matter what style that you may train. There are a lot of long fist dancers. There are also some long fist guys who likes to test their skill in Sanda/Sanshou rule set.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah it does, it goes really well when the game goes to the ground. When it's stand up, I see the highlights of other styles excelling. Are strikes taught in bjj to an extent it would be reliable in the cage? Or would it be preferred to use say boxing? I'm assuming that BJJ is not used purely in the cage and like any other competitor would need to round up on other arts as well.

That's only because everyone trains in Bjj now, so with the ground game being even, it's the striking game that oftentimes determines the outcome of a fight.

If you look at the older UFCs, or specifically how the Gracies fight, they use a lot of striking from their feet as well as on the ground. I would say their striking was very reliable in the cage, just not on the level of boxing or Muay Thai.

That said, Bjj was definitely not designed for fighting in the cage. It was designed for fighting.

I honestly don't know the ratio of say submissions Vs. KOs. I'd speculate the submissions are higher since I'd thin it would be the easier game plan than going for a knock out.

Depends. There's a lot of stoppages when someone mounts someone and beats the crap out of their opponent. I don't know if that's considered a KO.

 

[jezr74]

Honestly if you told me that was standard MMA, I wouldn't have known the difference.

Very good point, when I see an arm bar for example, I have no idea if they are using JJ, BJJ, HKD, Judo, wrestling or learnt it at an MMA school. If I happen to look at the persons background, I'll assume that style is how they learnt it.

Same with a basic punch and basic kick. It would really need to be an obvious stylized move for me to tell the difference or in turn have a good understanding of that style.

 

[Steve]

We also have Benson Henderson in the UFC right now with a combination of Tae Kwon Do and Wrestling. There are more with a TMA background and have been a lot more. I will give it to you thought that BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai are the dominant styles shown in the cage.

Benson Henderson was a brown belt in bjj two or three years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a black belt by now.


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