The value of forms

[Headhunter]

but no one can understand forms as they don't make any sense at all. the best you will get if you ask for an explanation is a load of meaningless waffle , like Billl posted above. i know coz ive asked many times on here and elsewhere

Just because YOU can't understand it doesn't mean everyone can't. That's just your own problem.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

i have never heard of the form for bjj before, but for your first point i would agree you do that but its only one or to moves not 20 plus so i would consider that differnet then a form.

The first form i learned is just turning and punching forward in a bunch of different directions. I believe they teach the same form in kukkiwon tkd. Not all that much different than shrimping across a floor.

 

[jobo]

I thought the issue was that he's not sure about the full usefulness of forms/parts of the system, not that the kids aren't interested in learning it. If I misread the issue then you're right my advice wouldn't really be helpful in getting kids engaged. Working at a summer/winter camp or daycare camp and seeing how the other supervisors/counselors interact with tbe kids to get them involved may help more.

that was his other thread about disinterested kids and engagement in the learning process

 

[Headhunter]

The first form i learned is just turning and punching forward in a bunch of different directions. I believe they teach the same form in kukkiwon tkd. Not all that much different than shrimping across a floor.

Exactly what I said.

In kenpo the first form is literally step back inward block x2
Step back outward x2
Step back upward x2
Step back downward x2


I mean you don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure out what that forms teaching

 

[falcon]

No it isn't. It's exactly the same thing.....it's the same as me doing a shrimp, then a bridge to mount then a triangle. All a form is is a bunch of moves put together for exercise purposes. For example a first move of a from step back block punch, then transition to 6 o clock and do an inside block then a roundhouse kick, then turn to 3 do a downward block and an elbow.

That's not all one big choreography it's different drills put together. The first drill is step back block punch that's one drill

The second is inside block roundhouse kick.


Honestly I'm sorry but this is first week stuff I'm explaining here. Yes different styles but if I didn't know that I wouldn't have gotten my first belt. You need to find a new teacher if this wasn't explained to you

i understand that basic stuff, but has you learn more advance forms you start doing really complicated movements, and its more of the advance part of forms that is confusing.

 

[Headhunter]

i understand that basic stuff, but has you learn more advance forms you start doing really complicated movements, and its more of the advance part of forms that is confusing.

Not from my experience it isn't. Far from it if anything the higher ones are easier to learn and as by that level I have a better understanding of the system so I know how things work better

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Exactly what I said.

In kenpo the first form is literally step back inward block x2
Step back outward x2
Step back upward x2
Step back downward x2


I mean you don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure out what that forms teaching

I stand corrected-I guess that's the first form I learned. I forgot about that one. But with turns instead of step back.

 

[jobo]

Just because YOU can't understand it doesn't mean everyone can't. That's just your own problem.

i've asked for it to be explained to me, if people can't proffer a succinct explanation, with out getting metaphysical, then its fair to say they don't understand them either and are just pretending they do to save face.

would you like to try ?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

that was his other thread about disinterested kids and engagement in the learning process

Ah. I think I only skimmed that one.

 

[Headhunter]

I stand corrected-I guess that's the first form I learned. I forgot about that one. But with turns instead of step back.

Yeah no there's turns but I couldn't be bothered to write all that out as well but yeah the basic movements are step back block x2 turn to a different angle then step back block x2

 

[Headhunter]

i've asked for it to be explained to me, if people can't proffer a succinct explanation, then its fair to say they don't understand them either and are just pretending they do to save face.

would you like to try ?

Not really as I find talking to you as useful as talking to a brick wall

 

[falcon]

Not from my experience it isn't. Far from it if anything the higher ones are easier to learn and as by that level I have a better understanding of the system so I know how things work better

learning the movements to a form is incredibly easy to me, its just some of the movements dont make any since to me, cause when i see different people say you doing this or that, i dont think that it would actually work how the from has you do it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

learning the movements to a form is incredibly easy to me,

I'm sure you think that, but I'm not sure it's true.

its just some of the movements dont make any since to me, cause when i see different people say you doing this or that, i dont think that it would actually work how the from has you do it.

I suspect you lack a qualified instructor. Whenever I feel that a particular move has no value or practical application, I ask my instructor. In more than 12 years, he has not failed to provide instant and painful tuition that convinces me I simply did not see it.

More basic - just because you don't see the value, does not mean the value is not there. It doesn't mean the value *is* there either; but without a competent instructor, you can't extrapolate the value on your own.

 

[Headhunter]

learning the movements to a form is incredibly easy to me, its just some of the movements dont make any since to me, cause when i see different people say you doing this or that, i dont think that it would actually work how the from has you do it.

And that's why you ask questions....really are going in circles here

 

[Dirty Dog]

only since i open my school, most of my trianing is going to the dojang everyday for about 5 years i am terrible with time frames so i just know it was around 5 years.

"About" 5 years of training and you're running a school? How is that even possible? I mean, KKW TKD schools are often known for ridiculously rapid promotion without any real understanding of basic material (let alone advanced...). But if we assume you got your 1st Dan in a year, it'd be another year to 2nd, 2 more to 3rd, 3 more to 4th. That's 7 years, and 4th Dan is considered the minimum teaching rank by the KKW. So with "about" 5 years of training, you're violating the already extremely minimal standards of the KKW as regards either time in grade or rank required for teaching.
For reference, in our Moo Duk Kwan system, you'd likely be around 4th geup.

 

[Headhunter]

"About" 5 years of training and you're running a school? How is that even possible? I mean, KKW TKD schools are often known for ridiculously rapid promotion without any real understanding of basic material (let alone advanced...). But if we assume you got your 1st Dan in a year, it'd be another year to 2nd, 2 more to 3rd, 3 more to 4th. That's 7 years, and 4th Dan is considered the minimum teaching rank by the KKW. So with "about" 5 years of training, you're violating the already extremely minimal standards of the KKW as regards either time in grade or rank required for teaching.
For reference, in our Moo Duk Kwan system, you'd likely be around 4th geup.

He's second Dan I think according to what I remember reading....could be wrong

 

[jobo]

I'm sure you think that, but I'm not sure it's true.



I suspect you lack a qualified instructor. Whenever I feel that a particular move has no value or practical application, I ask my instructor. In more than 12 years, he has not failed to provide instant and painful tuition that convinces me I simply did not see it.

More basic - just because you don't see the value, does not mean the value is not there. It doesn't mean the value *is* there either; but without a competent instructor, you can't extrapolate the value on your own.

if something has value it should be reasonably obvious what value it has

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For reference, in our Moo Duk Kwan system, you'd likely be around 4th geup.

So it takes about 5 years in your system for 6 geups, so a little under a year a geup? And I'm guessing the geups take longer as you get closer to 1 dan, so in t would take about 10-12 years on average for first dan? Is that the teaching rank for your style?

And is that speed assuming someone who's training daily, or would someone going daily progress more quickly through the ranks?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm noticing that when these types of threads come up, it tends to be kukkiwon tkders who cant figure out the meanings behind their forms.

I don't know if that means that these tkd forms have less inherent value than forms from other systems, less obvious value, or if the way that they have less rigorous standards for instructors leading to subpar instructors. But I feel like one of those is happening, that people from other styles/kwans can't relate to.

Or it might just be an odd coincidence. But I doubt it.

 

[geezer]

if something has value it should be reasonably obvious what value it has

Nope. Or, maybe. But people can be incredibly obtuse about the obvious. In general, not just in the martial arts. Me included.

Now I understand the basic function of absolutely all the moves in our escrima forms. But that's 'cause I made the forms up myself ....as a way to solo train fundamental drills and principles. On the other hand, there's also some stuff in those forms that needed fixing. Might say that they're a work in progress.

Funny thing is after working with them for many years, I start finding out stuff I that I didn't even know when I put the forms together. I figure that's because they are put together by combining stuff I learned from people with really deep knowledge and experience.

So I guess I'm still uncovering new levels and aspects of the stuff they showed me and that I thought I understood decades ago. Imagine that.

Now I'm going off to practice...