What Good are Forms?

[Kung Fu Wang]

The image you're showing is foundational technique training. It's a drill done together to build unity in the class, and to help teach you what to practice when you get home. Training solo forms in class is so you can learn what to practice at home, and get feedback for when you are at home.

The image does not prove that they do NOT do partner drills. The image only proves that they do solo forms.

This type of post is the exact type of response that is starting to become a pet peeve of mine in martial arts discussions. To judge a curriculum on a single photo or video of a technical demonstration.

My questions are:

1. Should you spend 100% of your group training time in partner drill?
2. Can you develop MA foundation and basic only through partner drill training?

For example, I don't teach form, but I teach a lot of partner drills. When students train partner drills without partner, they have solo drills. When they link solo drills, they have forms that they can train at home when partners are not available. I don't even teach MA stances. Students can learn the correct MA stances through the partner drill training.

IMO, this training method is more effective than the traditional MA training method.

partner drills -> solo drills -> forms

The advantage of this "partner drills base training method" is you understand exactly what you are doing when you train your solo form.

 

[skribs]

My questions are:

1. Should you spend 100% of your group training time in partner drill?
2. Can you develop MA foundation and basic only through partner training?

No, and no. At the very least, there are foundational things like rolls or falls that need to be practiced on your own before someone throws you down. The basic footwork and some of the basic techniques, at the foundational level, will need to be trained by yourself before drilling with a partner. Some of these apply more to grappling and some more to striking.

There's also things that are a waste of your partner's time for you to drill with your partner, or where you can get similar level of efficient training out of the drill solo. If I can practice a drill shadowboxing or on a heavy bag, my partner would benefit from also doing that drill, instead of holding pads for me.

That's not to say the drills shouldn't ever be practiced with a partner. But if you can practice an entry and throw in 3 seconds by yourself, or in 10 seconds with a partner (because you have to wait for him to stand back up and be ready), in a minute you can do 20 reps solo or 6 reps with a partner. In 2 minutes, you can do 40 reps solo, or 6 reps with a partner (because now it's his turn). So you mix and match, so you can get quantity of reps and quality.

Even in our hapkido, which is all about pressure points and joint locks, I want to say I spend maybe 20% of class on solo work. It gives my joints a bit of a rest from being a partner, and it lets me repeat over and over again the correction I got on my footwork or leverage, so that when I partner up again I can apply it easier.

 

[Flying Crane]

I prefer to think of a Kata like a parfait. Everyone loves a parfait. Ain't nobody say "no, I don't want a parfait, I don't like parfaits."

But is an ogre like kata?

 

[pdg]

I prefer to think of a Kata like a parfait. Everyone loves a parfait. Ain't nobody say "no, I don't want a parfait, I don't like parfaits."

Do you mean an American style parfait or a real one?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If people can't figure a martial arts application then there is no way Ai would figure it out. Ai can't even drive down the street without killing people. You know who else can't do it? Humans.

There is more to applying techniques finding how many attacks are possible. Ask people wow try to get robots to walk and run. They'll tell you the she thing. There's a lot more to walking than what we realiaze.

ha ha ha.. so many typos. Auto correct screwing me up. That's what I get for using someone else's phone.. Here's the translation:

There is more to applying techniques than finding how many attacks are possible. Ask people who try to get robots to walk and run. They'll tell you the same thing. "There's a lot more to walking than what we realize."

One thing I know for sure. My Samsung Galaxy 4 phone Ai won't be teaching anything lol. Maybe my new phone will be able to do better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

virtually moving bodies is done in 3d modeling all the time, for decades.

Same thing. Program and code written by people who think driving has an limited amount of possibilities, and doesn't count for the almost infinite number of things that could make today different than the next day.

1. Pot holes - There is no pot hole that is the same as the one down the street, nor are they always in the same spot. Water filling it up, snow filling it up, a pot hole at the top of the hill, loose asphalt, trash, deep pot hole, shallow pothole. All of this changes. When the car in front swerves to avoid one, does the ai know to do the same, does the ai know that there may be something in the road that it should avoid, or does the ai stay on course. When cars go around into the on coming traffic to avoid one does the ai know to do the same or will it ride over the pothole.

What's the protocol for this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

You can put all of this into a 3D virtual environment and still get crap responses. Wasn't it just recently where planes were crashing because of "virtual 3d environment calculations." Their software gave all the "correct responses" in the 3D virtual environment and still failed in the real one. The amazing thing about it is all of that is less complex than human movement, human reaction, timing of punches, anticipation. Does the fighter pick up a tell-tale sign, which allows them to be successful with striking.

Does the human movement deceive? For example, my big wheel punches always look as if there is an opening. Put that in a virtual environment and a computer may say yes, there is an opening, but the problem is. We don't have computers for a brain so unless a computer can compute things based on our perception then there's no way in the world it's going to be accurate in doing a lot of things.

You'll often find that computers do an excellent job when the environmental elements are limited.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is awesome, but add some water to the service and you'll probably get a different result. Put in in a 3D virtual environment, make some calculations and the best you'll get is. "If it's this much water" then you'll have a risk percentage of slipping. Add some dirt or oil to that water mixture and your calculations are screwed.
The reason why I say this is because dirt on your shoes, oil on your shoes, worn tread will affect how much or how little grip you'll have on the surface.

Those damn banana peels. What's the slip ratio calculation for a banana peel to be tested in a virtual environment?

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are quite a few tesla cars driving on autopilot, not killing people, on the streets right now.
And its got amazing collision avoidance systems.

That may be so if your are comparing it to other cars. Listen to his comments and you'll hear him bring up the environmental elements many of which wouldn't be factored into a virtual ai.

And this guy

And this guy. My thoughts on this is that recognizing a pot hole would be much easier that calculating human movement and intention.

If computers can't read this stuff in a real environment, then I would naturally think it would be the same in trying to calculate what's available for a martial arts application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Video of someone trying to just get the the structure of martial arts movement

It think the best way to go about seeing what applications are available is to do simple video analysis of different fighters actually fighting and then feed it into the computer data analysis blender. Fighters would need to actually wear sensors so I'm thinking skin tight suit with thin flexible sensors. The suits would have to be able to communicate with each other as they collect data to see if there was an action that triggered a specific response.

The problem with martial arts application analysis via computer at the moment is that you get people who are good at science but not in fighting. Because of this they miss out on subtle but important details. For example in this video below. They use a sound to measure response time. But in reality fighters use visual cues to help determine what action should be taken. The sooner you see the cue, the faster your reaction time will be in the context of someone attacking or defending.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To use the form to record technique, one long fist form has a punching combo as:

- hook punch,
- back fist,
- uppercut,
- hammer fist,
- jab,
- cross.

IMO, it's an excellent idea that one can just train this short drill and review all the possible punching techniques.

 

[dvcochran]

Q: What's wrong with the following "group" MA training pictures?
A: There are training form.
Q: Should they only train form when partners are not available?
A: They need to learn the form so they can train when they don't have partner.
Q: Should they spent their training time in partner drill training while partners are available?
A: ...

What's your answer for the last question?

Here are examples of partner drill training for both striking art and throwing art.

That is not an example of partner drill training as I understand it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My questions are:

1. Should you spend 100% of your group training time in partner drill?
2. Can you develop MA foundation and basic only through partner drill training?

For example, I don't teach form, but I teach a lot of partner drills. When students train partner drills without partner, they have solo drills. When they link solo drills, they have forms that they can train at home when partners are not available. I don't even teach MA stances. Students can learn the correct MA stances through the partner drill training.

IMO, this training method is more effective than the traditional MA training method.

partner drills -> solo drills -> forms

The advantage of this "partner drills base training method" is you understand exactly what you are doing when you train your solo form.

I don't think there's a universal answer to #1, because it's a value judgment ("should").

As to #2, that depends. If students are expected to do their fitness training outside class, then yes, I think it's entirely possible. There are other methods that seem to speed up at least parts of the learning and serve multiple purposes (like the shrimping drill seen often in BJJ), but I've seen no evidence they're strictly necessary to fundamental development.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, and no. At the very least, there are foundational things like rolls or falls that need to be practiced on your own before someone throws you down. The basic footwork and some of the basic techniques, at the foundational level, will need to be trained by yourself before drilling with a partner. Some of these apply more to grappling and some more to striking.

There's also things that are a waste of your partner's time for you to drill with your partner, or where you can get similar level of efficient training out of the drill solo. If I can practice a drill shadowboxing or on a heavy bag, my partner would benefit from also doing that drill, instead of holding pads for me.

That's not to say the drills shouldn't ever be practiced with a partner. But if you can practice an entry and throw in 3 seconds by yourself, or in 10 seconds with a partner (because you have to wait for him to stand back up and be ready), in a minute you can do 20 reps solo or 6 reps with a partner. In 2 minutes, you can do 40 reps solo, or 6 reps with a partner (because now it's his turn). So you mix and match, so you can get quantity of reps and quality.

Even in our hapkido, which is all about pressure points and joint locks, I want to say I spend maybe 20% of class on solo work. It gives my joints a bit of a rest from being a partner, and it lets me repeat over and over again the correction I got on my footwork or leverage, so that when I partner up again I can apply it easier.

While I don't think it is optimal, I have met instructors who don't teach falls without throws. Students' first exposure to falls is in partner throw/fall drills. This is the same "can" versus "need to" issue that comes up on the side of using forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But is an ogre like kata?

I've been known to move like somewhat like an ogre in kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you mean an American style parfait or a real one?

Why, you...just wait 'til I put down my bucket of coke and trash bag full of french fries...be right there, then I'll fix you!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To use the form to record technique, one long fist form has a punching combo as:

- hook punch,
- back fist,
- uppercut,
- hammer fist,
- jab,
- cross.

IMO, it's an excellent idea that one can just train this short drill and review all the possible punching techniques.

So, what happens if an instructor wants to add another to the repertoire? Do they now need to change the form? And then if they decide hammerfist isn't used enough to warrant continued focus? There's nothing wrong with using a form for this (with a limited number like that, it's kind of handy), so long as it doesn't become immutable.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Kata and forms are the same thing no matter what kata is japanese form is english like in my karate class we call it forms instead of kata

 

[TSDTexan]

I've been known to move like somewhat like an ogre in kata.

more common than expected.

 

[TSDTexan]

So, what happens if an instructor wants to add another to the repertoire? Do they now need to change the form? And then if they decide hammerfist isn't used enough to warrant continued focus? There's nothing wrong with using a form for this (with a limited number like that, it's kind of handy), so long as it doesn't become immutable.

ahh... the dirty secret of karate.

The old masters railed on about not changing the forms, while they in fact did change the forms, as did future generations.

Well, one way to go about doing it without breaking the rule is change the form but give it a new name.

Make sure you have about 3 or more changes to edit in. then you can just add a numeric designation and keep the old name but include shodan behind it.

Alternately, what is often done is the particular edit gets named after the editor.

For example There is a kata named Rohai
and later on there became a new one called Chibana no Rohai.

Make sure to document the new applications at the various places the edits have been made. This will prevent a lot of arguing over your intent in the future generations about 50-100 years later.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, what happens if an instructor wants to add another to the repertoire? Do they now need to change the form?

In the following form, the back hand punch at 0.30 was a double palms strike as at 0.29. My long fist teacher's teacher Han Chin-Tang changed it into back hand punch. The reason was, this form was used as the beginner level training. The whole form had leading hand punch but did have back hand punch which did not meet the requirement to be used as the entry level training form.

At 0.2 after the left palm strike, I added in a right back hand punch. The reason was, when my opponent drops his right arm to block my waist level palm strike, his face will be exposed for my punch.

So in the last 3 generations (my teacher's teacher generation and my generation), this form had been changed twice. Who knows that how many times this form will be changed in the future.