What Good are Forms?

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is not an example of partner drill training as I understand it.

Which clip (or picture) are you referencing to?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the following form, the back hand punch at 0.30 was a double palms strike as at 0.29. My long fist teacher's teacher Han Chin-Tang changed it into back hand punch. The reason was, this form was used as the beginner level training. The whole form had leading hand punch but did have back hand punch which did not meet the requirement to be used as the entry level training form.

At 0.2 after the left palm strike, I added in a right back hand punch. The reason was, when my opponent drops his right arm to block my waist level palm strike, his face will be exposed for my punch.

So in the last 3 generations (my teacher's teacher generation and my generation), this form had been changed twice. Who knows that how many times this form will be changed in the future.

And I feel like forms should change. Even the best form won't fit every instructor's approach equally.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And I feel like forms should change. Even the best form won't fit every instructor's approach equally.

Forms usually change based on what the teacher sees fit for the students to learn. There are very few schools that try to keep it exactly the same. If they do keep it exactly the same then it's usually more to preserve history and tradition more than anything else. name a form and look for it on youtube and you'll see many variations of it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If they do keep it exactly the same then it's usually more to preserve history and tradition more than anything else.

1000 years from today, a form that's 1000 years old, or a form that's 1050 years old are both considered as "ancient". If you burry anything in your back yard, it will become antique 1000 years from today.

If you are old, and if you are also a Chinese, anything that you may say can be quoted as "
Old Chinese saying said …".

Don't look down on yourself. You are part of the history.

 

[dvcochran]

Which clip (or picture) are you referencing to?

You post yesterday at 1:34 showing groups of people doing forms together. I think of a partner drill as two people physically interacting with each other. The classic one-step sparring in TKD for example; one person executes an attack and the other person counters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You post yesterday at 1:34 showing groups of people doing forms together. I think of a partner drill as two people physically interacting with each other. The classic one-step sparring in TKD for example; one person executes an attack and the other person counters.

Here are examples of partner drill training for both striking art and throwing art.

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[dvcochran]

Here are examples of partner drill training for both striking art and throwing art.

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[/QUOTE]
Now we are talking partner drills.

 

[JowGaWolf]

1000 years from today, a form that's 1000 years old, or a form that's 1050 years old are both considered as "ancient". If you burry anything in your back yard, it will become antique 1000 years from today.

If you are old, and if you are also a Chinese, anything that you may say can be quoted as "
Old Chinese saying said …".

Don't look down on yourself. You are part of the history.

It only becomes a part of history if someone continues your teachings. If you teach me something. I learn it. But I decided that what you taught wasn't effective to learning how to fight. Then your teachings will no longer have the option of being 1000 years old. But it will become forgotten.

If you bury anything in your back yard and I come by dig it up and decided that it's useless and only gets in the way of me growing my garden, then it will only become trash.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Don't look down on yourself. You are part of the history.

I'm only part of the history if I leave something behind, or leave something for someone to carry on. Anything less than that, then I'll be forgotten like so many others, even history won't know me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It only becomes a part of history if someone continues your teachings. If you teach me something. I learn it. But I decided that what you taught wasn't effective to learning how to fight. Then your teachings will no longer have the option of being 1000 years old. But it will become forgotten.

If you bury anything in your back yard and I come by dig it up and decided that it's useless and only gets in the way of me growing my garden, then it will only become trash.

Only history will tell whether your form contribution have any value or not.

I hope someday someone will thank me for creating this short form to help that person to remember the 13 postures training.

My teacher had created a video with 11 postures training. My short form make it complete.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Only history will tell whether your form contribution have any value or not.

As long as you leave something behind. A book or video sharing your knowledge. That's about the best way to ensure a contribution of value.

How many times have we referenced old video footage and written books about fighting.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I was stating an opinion. I wasn't trying to convince anyone. I've been down that road before. Karate is kata, kata is karate. They are inseparable. In my opinion. You may someday come to that realization yourself. Or not.

I could have used several other posts to intro mine, but this one is short and to the point (plus, I agree.) Karate is sometimes taken as a broad term. There are so many offshoots and self-started styles or lineages that the term can be ambiguous. For me, "real" karate means what was taught in Okinawa for the past 200 years (though back then known by other terms), tweaking the imported Chinese styles.

As originally developed, the kata was composed of kumite and kihon techniques. Kihon + kumite + linking them into a set series = kata = karate. But during the 20th century, these three elements diverged: Kumite became sport adapted sparring (no throat and eye strikes and no breaks, etc); kihon became basic blocks, strikes and kicks; and kata became a bunch of moves to perform (half of which nobody really knew what they meant). Recently, this has been changing thanks to some traditional veterans who have been researching and rediscovering "traditional" Okinawan karate.

As a result, kata, kihon and combat kumite are becoming realigned. Kumite and kihon are contained in the kata once again. Once again, Karate = Kata.

 

[isshinryuronin]

And I feel like forms should change. Even the best form won't fit every instructor's approach equally.

Me think dat if it's oaky-dokey to chanj forms just to pleeze instructor's sence uv how to do (or spell) it, there B az many formz, and eventually stylz, az instructors. Just becawz one has sertin way speaking doesn't mean they shood re-rite the dikshunary.

I think it's better for the instructor to learn the true meaning/spelling/pronunciation of the form and adapt his teaching method (not the form) for a particular student. If after this he thinks the form needs to be changed, maybe his style or form he learned is not what it should be. Maybe this situation is the result of a prior instructor and the instructor before him changing what used to be a fully functional form because they thought it fit their personal approach better. After a while, the form devolves and the template no longer works as well as it should.

Another metaphor: My mother used to bake a pretty good banana bread. But I didn't like a strong banana taste so I used only one banana. My wife likes chocolate so she added a good amount of it. My son liked chocolate a lot so he added even more. My grandson hates bananas so he left out the one banana. My other grandson like chewy stuff - that's his approach, so he used less egg and more oil. Turns out he made delicious brownies, but his kids will never know what banana bread is.

The only exception, in my opinion, would be a bona fide 8th or 9th degree, who has not promoted himself, intimately understands the true meaning of his forms as originally intended by former grandmasters, and is accepted by his peers as a master himself. If this guy wants to change a move, OK by me.

 

[Mitlov]

For me, "real" karate means what was taught in Okinawa for the past 200 years (though back then known by other terms), tweaking the imported Chinese styles.

So what do you refer to karate styles like Kyokushin, 55 years old; very different than Okinawa styles; and with kumite, not kata, at its core? Hopefully not "fake karate"?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Me think dat if it's oaky-dokey to chanj forms just to pleeze instructor's sence uv how to do (or spell) it, there B az many formz, and eventually stylz, az instructors. Just becawz one has sertin way speaking doesn't mean they shood re-rite the dikshunary.

I think it's better for the instructor to learn the true meaning/spelling/pronunciation of the form and adapt his teaching method (not the form) for a particular student. If after this he thinks the form needs to be changed, maybe his style or form he learned is not what it should be. Maybe this situation is the result of a prior instructor and the instructor before him changing what used to be a fully functional form because they thought it fit their personal approach better. After a while, the form devolves and the template no longer works as well as it should.

Another metaphor: My mother used to bake a pretty good banana bread. But I didn't like a strong banana taste so I used only one banana. My wife likes chocolate so she added a good amount of it. My son liked chocolate a lot so he added even more. My grandson hates bananas so he left out the one banana. My other grandson like chewy stuff - that's his approach, so he used less egg and more oil. Turns out he made delicious brownies, but his kids will never know what banana bread is.

The only exception, in my opinion, would be a bona fide 8th or 9th degree, who has not promoted himself, intimately understands the true meaning of his forms as originally intended by former grandmasters, and is accepted by his peers as a master himself. If this guy wants to change a move, OK by me.

You lost me entirely in the first paragraph.

 

[dvcochran]

I think it's better for the instructor to learn the true meaning/spelling/pronunciation of the form and adapt his teaching method (not the form) for a particular student. If after this he thinks the form needs to be changed, maybe his style or form he learned is not what it should be. Maybe this situation is the result of a prior instructor and the instructor before him changing what used to be a fully functional form because they thought it fit their personal approach better. After a while, the form devolves and the template no longer works as well as it should.

Maybe, maybe not is the simplest answer I can come up with. I do think I get what you are trying to say.

There are/were tools used that simply do not fit the modern world. An example, when I was young (single digit) we still broke our 10 acre garden with a single harrow plow and horse. It was a MAJOR PITA and this was 40 plus years ago. (I don't know how the Amish still do it at large but I respect the hell out of them for doing it). What used to take 2 days can be done in about 3 hours now. So progression in all things is good as long as the MERITS of the past are withheld.

If I hate bananas and never have to eat them again, that is not a bad thing. Conversely, if I love chocolate to the point I over eat chocolate, that IS a bad thing. Same is true for anything.

***Again: I hope no one takes this as bashing history. I love reading about it. We can learn just as much from our bad past as our good. Maybe more.

 

[isshinryuronin]

So what do you refer to karate styles like Kyokushin, 55 years old; very different than Okinawa styles; and with kumite, not kata, at its core? Hopefully not "fake karate"?

Mas Oyama, Kyokushin creator, got his 4th degree in Okinawan Shotokan and studied with Gichin Funakoshi, whom he referred to as his true teacher. He further stated that of all the things he learned from him, KATA WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT. (according to www.historyoffighting.com) To be fair, maybe he meant that was the only worthwhile thing he learned from Funakoshi?

He also studied Goju with Yamaguchi for a number of years. From what I have read, he did incorporate traditional katas from both these systems into his Kyokushin style. Since his fame centered on his fighting ability, this was what was highlighted and promoted as his full contact tournaments became popular. But after he died, several senior students claimed mastership and the style fragmented.

Since these "youngbloods" were geared to the competitive fighting aspect of the style, and their claim to fame, it is natural that kata took a back seat. Another generation of students will most likely see their kata disappear, leaving Kyokushin as a purely competitive (and no doubt effective) fighting art, but not a complete karate style in the usual sense - more of a separate category.

 

[Buka]

There has been some great discussion about whether there is any direct Martial/Fighting value in practicing forms.

• What is your position, not just your opinion?
• If they are good and have purpose, explain why/how.
• If they are purely in the art/dance category for you explain why/how.

Many of us do them because that was how we learned to perform certain techniques.

• How do you transfer these learned muscle memory skills into application?
• How do you defend forms as useful for fighting when they are a very specific pattern and a real fight or encounter is anything but specific?

For the Non-tradition folks out there, is there anything of value in forms? Or are they more akin to a dead language? They had their time but has that time passed? If so how do you recommend training large numbers of people a certain technique all at the same time? What is your method for teaching a specific technique?

I’ve been on the road for a bit and and just now started a two week holiday in New England. But when I get back I want to answer in detail the last two questions in your OP.

In the meantime I hope everyone is well and safely training hard.

And now there’s this fancy Italian eatery that’s just calling my name......

 

[Mitlov]

Forms usually change based on what the teacher sees fit for the students to learn. There are very few schools that try to keep it exactly the same. If they do keep it exactly the same then it's usually more to preserve history and tradition more than anything else. name a form and look for it on youtube and you'll see many variations of it.

Not in standardized styles like JKA Shotokan and Kukkiwon TKD. There's individual quality of performance, but it's still the same form. Like how two people can sing the national anthem and it doesn't sound identical, but they're singing the same song.

 

[Mitlov]

Mas Oyama, Kyokushin creator, got his 4th degree in Okinawan Shotokan and studied with Gichin Funakoshi, whom he referred to as his true teacher. He further stated that of all the things he learned from him, KATA WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT. (according to www.historyoffighting.com) To be fair, maybe he meant that was the only worthwhile thing he learned from Funakoshi?

That's how I read it. The most important part of what he learned from Funakoshi, not the most important component of Kyokushin training.