The value of forms

[Gweilo]

@falcon forums are great for discussion, but you will find vastly experienced people, all with their own beliefs, based on sometimes decades of hard work, sometimes blind faith, loyalty, and experience, some will tell you, you are wrong, stupid, misguided, this is a problem you will have to solve, and quickly, for your own, and your students sake, all I can offer is the following advise, don't let the comments you read stop your training, we are all basically students of movement, if you get stuck, or question what you are doing, slow down, breath and keep moving, keep moving your whole body, if you get it wrong, you will learn, if you get it right you will learn, sometimes the best way is not to plan, just do, be natural, it's Ok to not to get it right, or question what you have been taught, this is evolution, all you need to do is understand the essence of what you have been taught, and mould that to you. Opinions are just that, someone's opinion, you will get to know what's right or wrong for you, if you continue in your current art, or if a new one is needed in order for you to progress to where you need to be. Don't be disheartened by what you read here, in some cases you are reading personal beliefs, forged over time.

 

[falcon]

@falcon forums are great for discussion, but you will find vastly experienced people, all with their own beliefs, based on sometimes decades of hard work, sometimes blind faith, loyalty, and experience, some will tell you, you are wrong, stupid, misguided, this is a problem you will have to solve, and quickly, for your own, and your students sake, all I can offer is the following advise, don't let the comments you read stop your training, we are all basically students of movement, if you get stuck, or question what you are doing, slow down, breath and keep moving, keep moving your whole body, if you get it wrong, you will learn, if you get it right you will learn, sometimes the best way is not to plan, just do, be natural, it's Ok to not to get it right, or question what you have been taught, this is evolution, all you need to do is understand the essence of what you have been taught, and mould that to you. Opinions are just that, someone's opinion, you will get to know what's right or wrong for you, if you continue in your current art, or if a new one is needed in order for you to progress to where you need to be. Don't be disheartened by what you read here, in some cases you are reading personal beliefs, forged over time.

thanks for the advice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

forums are great for discussion, but you will find vastly experienced people, all with their own beliefs,

The purpose that OP starts a thread is not because he wants to argue against everybody. He just wants to collect different opinions.

Does the following discussion make any sense?

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: You should ask your Sensei.
C: You should ask your coach.
D: You should ask your teacher.
E: How long have you trained?
F: Who is your teacher?
G: ...

Sometime I believe the thread discussion do not focus on the topic. IMO, the normal discussion should be like:

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: Form can be used for ...
C: I like form because ...
D: I don't like form because ...
E: ...

Your thought?​

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Does the following discussion make any sense?

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: You should ask your Sensei.
C: You should ask your coach.
D: You should ask your teacher.
E: How long have you trained?
F: Who is your teacher?
G: ...

Sometime I believe the thread discussion do not focus on the topic. IMO, the normal discussion should be like:

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: Form can be used for ...
C: I like form because ...
D: I don't like form because ...
E: ...

Your thought?​

I think sometimes people try to gain context in order to more fully understand the questions being asked. Often, a question will baffle or confound a person trying to answer unless they are able to understand more about the person asking it.

 

[Headhunter]

The purpose that OP starts a thread is not because he wants to argue against everybody. He just wants to collect different opinions.

Does the following discussion make any sense?

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: You should ask your Sensei.
C: You should ask your coach.
D: You should ask your teacher.
E: How long have you trained?
F: Who is your teacher?
G: ...

Sometime I believe the thread discussion do not focus on the topic. IMO, the normal discussion should be like:

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: Form can be used for ...
C: I like form because ...
D: I don't like form because ...
E: ...

Your thought?​

Well yeah it does make sense because guy comes on here asking what the value of forms is. That's a question a teacher should be answering not a bunch of strangers online.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think sometimes people try to gain context in order to more fully understand the questions being asked. Often, a question will baffle or confound a person trying to answer unless they are able to understand more about the person asking it.

But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.

For example, if OP asks the following question.

What do you think the application of this Taiji move is? Whether the OP has 50 years of Taiji training, or 5 years of Taiji training will have nothing to do with this discussion subject.

 

[Headhunter]

But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.

For example, if OP asks the following question.

What do you think the application of this Taiji move is? Whether the OP has 50 years of Taiji training, or 5 years of Taiji training will have nothing to do with this discussion subject.

Jeez we know the threads been derailed when someone comes on telling us how we should be answering a thread

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Jeez we know the threads been derailed when someone comes on telling us how we should be answering a thread

Should we discussion the message instead of attacking the messenger?

"Your thought?" is not "telling us".

In another forum, I found out that people like to attack new members. I stated my observation in my post. Suddenly, every old members (include the moderator) started to attack me. I left that forum quietly and will never go back.

IMO, it's nice to keep this forum to be as friendly as possible.

 

[Gweilo]

The purpose that OP starts a thread is not because he wants to argue against everybody. He just wants to collect different opinions.

Does the following discussion make any sense?

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: You should ask your Sensei.
C: You should ask your coach.
D: You should ask your teacher.
E: How long have you trained?
F: Who is your teacher?
G: ...

Sometime I believe the thread discussion do not focus on the topic. IMO, the normal discussion should be like:

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: Form can be used for ...
C: I like form because ...
D: I don't like form because ...
E: ...

Your thought?​

Ok A it's Ok for beginners
B of course
C too many cooks spoil the broth
D too many cooks...........
E 38 years
F many , attended many seminars inclubbing matsaaki hatsumi, Fred Adams, han jae ji, bong soo han, Jong bae rim, Merrill jung, vladimir Vasiliev, Mikhail Ryabko.

Second questions
A it's Ok for beginners
B basic understanding of movement
C i think drills are better
D i think drills are better
E....movement is key, it's Ok to say, i will do a then b, but if you avoid a and b, then stand still for c, what's the point, move, move, then move again, when your windows opens finish.

 

[Gweilo]

There was lots more instructors in Hapkido,I could have mentioned, including living and training in Korea for 6 months.

 

[Gweilo]

Forms have a basic value, in which it leads students to a routine of movejent, but it's basic, it's down to the individual to adapt these to themselves, and understand the essence or principles of those movements, these are chapter 1 and 2, progression is an understanding of these forms, and adapting them. But to question these forms, Imo is a good thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But to question these forms, Imo is a good thing.

Agree with you 100% there.

In the following forms (at 0.12, and 0.17), you use your palm to attack your opponent's groin. When you do that, your opponent will always hit on your head. You start to wonder the value of this move.

One of my long fist brothers told me this move can be used to grab a handful of sand and throw at your opponent's face. Did he learn this application from his long fist teacher (also my long fist teacher)? No! He figured this out all by himself.

At 0.12.

At 0.17.

 

[Gweilo]

I love classical Chinese arts, but from the two videos you have just posted, Imo, the practioner is so ingrossed with the style of movement, what protects the knee on the lead leg.

 

[Headhunter]

Should we discussion the message instead of attacking the messenger?

"Your thought?" is not "telling us".

In another forum, I found out that people like to attack new members. I stated my observation in my post. Suddenly, every old members (include the moderator) started to attack me. I left that forum quietly and will never go back.

IMO, it's nice to keep this forum to be as friendly as possible.

I don't think anyone has been unfriendly, to me being unfriendly is calling someone rude names, using bad language towards them and using aggressive and threatening language or being condescending and rude.

All I see on this thread is people pointing out things that he can and should improve on as an instructor. Maybe they haven't all warm and sunshine but this is a martial art forum for people who train martial arts so they should be able to take a bit of criticism. No one one has come and said

"Wtf how do you not know that idiot? You obviously are an idiot who obviously is a fake black belt. Get lost a hole"

No ones said that everyone while maybe not being all warm and happy and smiley have given advice and been inquisitive. I'm guessing if there was any genuine rudeness or bashing then the mod with the creepy spider photo would be on here telling us all to shut up

 

[Gweilo]

I don't think anyone has been unfriendly, to me being unfriendly is calling someone rude names, using bad language towards them and using aggressive and threatening language or being condescending and rude.

All I see on this thread is people pointing out things that he can and should improve on as an instructor. Maybe they haven't all warm and sunshine but this is a martial art forum for people who train martial arts so they should be able to take a bit of criticism. No one one has come and said

"Wtf how do you not know that idiot? You obviously are an idiot who obviously is a fake black belt. Get lost a hole"

No ones said that everyone while maybe not being all warm and happy and smiley have given advice and been inquisitive. I'm guessing if there was any genuine rudeness or bashing then the mod with the creepy spider photo would be on here telling us all to shut up

The only problem is, for the pot to call the kettle black, tkd uses a form of training called Kyorugi la stylised form for competition, that comes away from traditional forms to make opponents more willing to fight, making the sport version more exciting to watch, so much form forms.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.

For example, if OP asks the following question.

What do you think the application of this Taiji move is? Whether the OP has 50 years of Taiji training, or 5 years of Taiji training will have nothing to do with this discussion subject.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, so context is important.

 

[Gweilo]

@Headhunter your opinion of this persons credentials should not matter, a martial artist, will learn more about their art, teaching, than studying, just because you are more advanced, or have a different opinion , or an opinion about another practioner, it is not the done thing to call them an idiot, I know your passionate about ma, but you should keep those comments to yourself

 

[Headhunter]

@Headhunter your opinion of this persons credentials should not matter, a martial artist, will learn more about their art, teaching, than studying, just because you are more advanced, or have a different opinion , or an opinion about another practioner, it is not the done thing to call them an idiot, I know your passionate about ma, but you should keep those comments to yourself

Wtf.....I'm trying to work out if you're serious here....I haven't called anyone an idiot. Please quote me where I have because I believe I know where your mind is going and if I'm right I have to say thank you because you just made me laugh a lot

 

[Dirty Dog]

He's second Dan I think according to what I remember reading....could be wrong

So he or she isn't actually qualified to teach, under KKW standards.

So it takes about 5 years in your system for 6 geups, so a little under a year a geup? And I'm guessing the geups take longer as you get closer to 1 dan, so in t would take about 10-12 years on average for first dan? Is that the teaching rank for your style?

And is that speed assuming someone who's training daily, or would someone going daily progress more quickly through the ranks?

A person who attends 5 classes a week and puts in the effort can earn 1st Dan in about 8 years. But promotion is absolutely never based on how long they've been a student. A student who doesn't understand the material will never reach 1st Dan. Ever. It is always absolutely based on understanding and ability. I earned my Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan in two years. But I already held KKW and ITF ranks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I love classical Chinese arts, but from the two videos you have just posted, Imo, the practioner is so ingrossed with the style of movement, what protects the knee on the lead leg.

Please provide more detail. Which move? At which point (timestamp) of that form?

May be I should start a new thread so I can collect different opinions about that form (one of my favor discussion subjects).

That form was assigned as the 1st form for students to learn in Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1934).
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The Central Guoshu Institute (simplified Chinese: 中央国术馆; traditional Chinese: 中央國術館; pinyin: zhōng yāng guó shù guǎn; literally: 'Central Martial Arts Academy'); was established in Nanjing by the Kuomintang government of the Republic of China in 1928 for the propagation of Chinese martial arts