The value of forms

[falcon]

Okay so op asked me what my systems forms teach so here's that answer from me.

Each form in American kenpo has a specific theme and each form signposts on to the next one so they're not all just a bunch of randomly thrown together moves there's always some connection to the others.

Short form 1 teaches you how to retreat from your opponent and use the basic blocks, the theme of that form is rotation for the rotation of your hips used when blocking.

Long form 1 is the same base as short 1 but after each block a reverse punch is thrown so that adds in counter attacks and the main theme is back up mass which is your forward bow stance on the punch.

Short form 2 teaches you to step into an attack and how to have a different timing on your movement and the need for checks due to the fact your stepping into the attack. This is also the first form to go on a different angle base. The first 2 forms worked on a plus symbol. (If you looked at me doing th form from above you'd see moving in a plus shape going to the basic clock angles of 6,3,9 and 12 o clock. But this form you move on the X angle and introduces a change in height by dropping under an attack.

Long form 2 shows you to use your front hand as an attack and how to move to different angles. It also teaches something new by being the first form to punch before you block and introduces elbows.

Short form 3 is a new theme all together, the previous were all movement all of them from now on are self defence technique forms where the form is made uo of techniques from the syllabus but all put together and have to use transitions to do them at different angles. This forms them is dead attacks (grabs)

Long form 3 adds to this by doing the techniques on both sides (short form 3 you only did it one side) this teaches you to adapt to both sides of the technique and it a,so teaches isolation of wrist grab escapes. This forms theme is semi live attacks.

Long form 4s theme is live attacks (punches and kicks) and it teaches you to work on different height levels by dropping to a knee simulating you've been knocked down.

Long forms 5 theme is takedown techniques and being struck from an unnatural start point when your not expecting it.

I don't have as much info on the last 2 as those are newer forms for me. But now I'm no form master, it's not my area of expertise but I've been able to tell you all of this just off the top of my head without having to read anything, not because I was specifically trained at one point but because over all my years I was given these little bits of infortmation as I go

i understand that headhunter means well and i will admit that i have gotten frustrated with him, he has at least give me some advice on what to do i feel his messages are repetitive but at least there is advice in it. that message about criticism wasnt completely directed to him; but it still was partially; there are some people here that only say something negative and that is it.

 

[mrt2]

would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?

Do you teach ITF TKD?

 

[falcon]

Okay so op asked me what my systems forms teach so here's that answer from me.

Each form in American kenpo has a specific theme and each form signposts on to the next one so they're not all just a bunch of randomly thrown together moves there's always some connection to the others.

Short form 1 teaches you how to retreat from your opponent and use the basic blocks, the theme of that form is rotation for the rotation of your hips used when blocking.

Long form 1 is the same base as short 1 but after each block a reverse punch is thrown so that adds in counter attacks and the main theme is back up mass which is your forward bow stance on the punch.

Short form 2 teaches you to step into an attack and how to have a different timing on your movement and the need for checks due to the fact your stepping into the attack. This is also the first form to go on a different angle base. The first 2 forms worked on a plus symbol. (If you looked at me doing th form from above you'd see moving in a plus shape going to the basic clock angles of 6,3,9 and 12 o clock. But this form you move on the X angle and introduces a change in height by dropping under an attack.

Long form 2 shows you to use your front hand as an attack and how to move to different angles. It also teaches something new by being the first form to punch before you block and introduces elbows.

Short form 3 is a new theme all together, the previous were all movement all of them from now on are self defence technique forms where the form is made uo of techniques from the syllabus but all put together and have to use transitions to do them at different angles. This forms them is dead attacks (grabs)

Long form 3 adds to this by doing the techniques on both sides (short form 3 you only did it one side) this teaches you to adapt to both sides of the technique and it a,so teaches isolation of wrist grab escapes. This forms theme is semi live attacks.

Long form 4s theme is live attacks (punches and kicks) and it teaches you to work on different height levels by dropping to a knee simulating you've been knocked down.

Long forms 5 theme is takedown techniques and being struck from an unnatural start point when your not expecting it.

I don't have as much info on the last 2 as those are newer forms for me. But now I'm no form master, it's not my area of expertise but I've been able to tell you all of this just off the top of my head without having to read anything, not because I was specifically trained at one point but because over all my years I was given these little bits of infortmation as I go

thanks for the info i will read it and see if anything applies to my art, to see if it can help me better understand things.

 

[falcon]

Do you teach ITF TKD?

WTF Tkd

 

[mrt2]

WTF Tkd

OK. If you taught ITF, I would have given you specific examples of our forms that I think are good teaching tools, but since you teach a different set of forms, not much I can say.

 

[falcon]

also people wanted to know if i train under someone. I am under my original teacher but he is a ways a way so i dont get much time to really go to his dojang to train much.

 

[falcon]

OK. If you taught ITF, I would have given you specific examples of our forms that I think are good teaching tools, but since you teach a different set of forms, not much I can say.

okay well thanks for being willing. i have also been wanting to know about itf sparri g rules for there tournaments for a while but just haven't looked into it much, so would you be willing to point me to a site that has that info? i know its kinda off topic but its something i have been wanting to look into.

 

[mrt2]

okay well thanks for being willing. i have also been wanting to know about itf sparri g rules for there tournaments for a while but just haven't looked into it much, so would you be willing to point me to a site that has that info? i know its kinda off topic but its something i have been wanting to look into.

Don't know. At our school, I think we fight using WTF rules. Kind of schizophrenic, ITF forms and curriculum with WTF sparring rules, but that is how we do it.

 

[falcon]

Don't know. At our school, I think we fight using WTF rules. Kind of schizophrenic, ITF forms and curriculum with WTF sparring rules, but that is how we do it.

thats interesting never heard of that before, so you do the Olympic rules cause that would be WTF?

 

[JowGaWolf]

complicaited moves in the forms and it never really goes that way in a fight.

Sounds like you are trying to fight using the techniques in the same order that they are in the form. Advance forms will put multiple techniques together int he form but it doesn't mean you are supposed to used all of them in that order in application. You have to learn the entry and exit points of your techniques and understand where a technique actually begins and where it ends.

 

[Dirty Dog]

WTF Tkd

Well there's your problem. There's no such thing. The WT (they changed their name...) isn't a style or system. It's a sports governing body. There are no WT schools. The WT has no curriculum. They award no rank. Go look at your (excessively high) rank certificate. Notice that it isn't from the WT.
So, basically, you're lacking even a very basic understanding. You don't even know what you're teaching.

 

[falcon]

Well there's your problem. There's no such thing. The WT (they changed their name...) isn't a style or system. It's a sports governing body. There are no WT schools. The WT has no curriculum. They award no rank. Go look at your (excessively high) rank certificate. Notice that it isn't from the WT.
So, basically, you're lacking even a very basic understanding. You don't even know what you're teaching.

i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms

 

[Headhunter]

i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms

Dude...relax you said you teach wtf taekwondo so dirty dog pointed out that wtf taekwondo isn't a system..it's a sport governing body. You're getting very defensive when being pointed out your mistakes. I don't know about that stuff since im not a TKD guy so I'll leave all that to guys who know more than me. But if you are under the assumption that you are teaching wtf taekwondo when there's no such system. That would explain a lot about your lack of understanding the forms. Instead of getting defensive maybe you should look into why you've got the wrong info instead of shouting at the world.

@Dirty Dog literally has just helped you out by giving you this information, you should be thanking him for that. You've now learned something you didn't know before hand. That's a good thing. Stop acting like everyone's against you.

I know for myself I'm not a guy who's going to filter my opinion. I say what I feel because I feel life's to short to not give real opinions. If I think someone sucks (not saying you suck just doing an example) I'll say they suck. If someone thinks I think I'd prefer them to say I suck. It's just easier than all this filter crap we have to deal with these days where you have to pretend everything's great and can't give a real opinion. If someone's good tell them they're good, if they're bad tell them they're bad. you made a mistake you were called out on it. Now you know your mistakes you can learn from it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms

Just an FYI, since I've seen this argument go on like 50 times on here-his comment wasn't about you saying WTF instead of WT. It's that the system you train in is under the kukkiwon, and the WT has a sparring ruleset/competition ruleset that gels (intentionally) with kukkiwon (I think it's considered the "official" ruleset", but I'm sure Mark will correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not the style.

And the issue is
A) that you don't know the name of your style (or refer to it as something else if you do), and
B) That might indicate that you think all of the style is encompassed by the competition aspect of the style.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just an FYI, since I've seen this argument go on like 50 times on here-his comment wasn't about you saying WTF instead of WT. It's that the system you train in is under the kukkiwon, and the WT has a sparring ruleset/competition ruleset that gels (intentionally) with kukkiwon (I think it's considered the "official" ruleset", but I'm sure Mark will correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not the style.

And the issue is
A) that you don't know the name of your style (or refer to it as something else if you do), and
B) That might indicate that you think all of the style is encompassed by the competition aspect of the style.

There. Hopefully I saved us of two pages of back and forth on this issue...but not bloody likely.

 

[jobo]

i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms

the problem here, apart from some of the people you are conversing with just being habitually rude. is that you have wandered into a topic that is quite contentious to start off with.

there are people here who have spent a life time learning and perfecting forms, and your question is taken as questioning the validity of that time. to answer your question honestly would require them to accept that they have wasted decades of their life perfecting something that is of little use to the actual art of fighting. be honest would you get a little cross if it were you ?

 

[falcon]

There. Hopefully I saved us of two pages of back and forth on this issue...but not bloody likely.

its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.

 

[Danny T]

i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms

falcon, this can be a rough crowd but the old guys here have a lot of knowledge...A Lot Of Knowledge.
Thing is most and I include myself in this...most are here to discuss things but not to actually 'teach'.
If you would like to discuss the merits of a particular application of a movement that's one thing but expecting someone to teach you what the many application potentials are...that's not going to go over well.

 

[Headhunter]

the problem here, apart from some of the people you are conversing with just being habitually rude. is that you have wandered into a topic that is quite contentious to start off with.

there are people here who have spent a life time learning and perfecting forms, and your question is taken as questioning the validity of that time. to answer your question honestly would require them to accept that they have wasted decades of their life perfecting something that is of little use to the actual art of fighting. be honest would you get a little cross if it were you ?

Lol first you calling anyone habitually rude is just hilarious,

Second that is absolutely not what anyone has said. What's been said is how the op doesn't seem to have the experience and knowledge neccesary for a teacher. He hasn't necessarily questioned the validity of forms he's said he doesn't understand them and now according to DD he's said he teaches a system that's not actually a system.thats what's being said and what the op is upset about is people are questioning his knowledge of what he is teaching his students.

Nothing to do with the pointless argument you always like to engage in

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.

I mentioned this earlier in but it likely got lost-the biggest thing to me is that you're not still getting consistent training. You know you have a lot to learn, which is fine, but if you're teaching than there's an onus on you to go out of you way and make sure you continue learning.