Originally posted by tonbo
I'll buy that. I don't deny that parts of forms get used in actual sparring or combat. I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually be able to pull off a full technique that consists of more than a couple of moves.
Real fights usually don't last longer than "a couple of moves."
For example: a very simple technique that I know is as follows, against a right punch: From a right guarding stance, right inward block to opponent's punch. Follow with a right back knuckle to the temple, then a right back knuckle to the solar plexus. Right elbow smash to the left pin of the jaw, followed by a right outward shuto to opponent's right side of neck. End with a right inward shuto to the opponent's left side of the neck.
Why is everything done with the right hand? A backfist strike to the solar plexus?
That technique is unsuitable for such a target - there is simply too little penetration possible. Also, do you assume that the opponent is going to stand still and allow all these strikes to happen, or that after one or two strikes there will have been no effect that causes his posture to change? After the elbow strike, I would think he would have moved a bit, hopefully toward sucking floor... Two knifehand strikes with the same hand to both sides of the neck? No need... if one is done properly, there is no need for both...
Okay, please understand, this is a VERY basic technique, and I have left out checks, use of the left hand, and other "cool" bits--just put in the very bare bones.
If this is a basic form technique used in your school, it is no wonder why people have difficulty understanding how forms translate to a real fight... The number of techniques used, the targets they are aimed at, and the way they are being used all make me think that whoever put that series together (and I admit that you stated that you did not include everything in your example - I am responding only to what you shared with us) wasn't thinking too clearly... And if those techniques are being explained as all applying to the same opponent, they are being taught improperly...
Now, even if I change the targeting of the elbow to hit the chest (to be more "legal" in sparring), I *still* can't pull this whole technique off. Usually, I get about half of it before all bets are off (before my opponent either hits me or gets too close to hitting me).
And the ugly reality of thinking sparring equals fighting rears its head... The reason the series of techniques is difficult if not impossible to use in sparring is that the strikes in forms (at least the forms I know of and practice) are intended to be debilitating ones - some strikes are set ups, some are not strikes at all... But ultimately the result is the incapacitation of the opponent, and in sparring you simply aren't allowed to do what needs to be done to put the opponent through the floor.
Maybe I don't think or move fast enough, I don't know. However, I have been told before that my situation is fairly typical.
Typical for who(m)? I
will say that the number of schools that could translate forms into applicable techniques that I have been associated with is a very small number... Honestly, I can count them on one hand.
I have also been told not to rely on being able to get off whole techniques, whether from forms or not--stick to the simple moves, put together in short, simple sets. For me, flowing and doing the old "stick and move" works much better than pulling in sets from a form or whole techniques.
If you are being "told" that, then I suspect you are being "taught" that...
In one of the first forms taught in Yiliquan, Di Yi Guan Nien, the series is as follows:
Opponent attacks with right punch.
Facing opponent, step to the inside of his punch with left inside block, following with left spear hand to the neck (vital point strike to slow him down), right punch to the solar plexus (can also be a grab, and in one variant break down it must be), kick with the right leg
past the opponent to pull the kicking leg back through the opponent's knee to push him down...
Straight from the form, straight to application, works like nobody's business...
I won't deny that there are some forms more geared toward combat. Makes sense.
Admittedly, some forms do seem geared more toward practicing basic techniques than others... I was receiving some instruction on that very topic last week from RyuShiKan regarding some Okinawan forms, and was given a demonstration of where the form in question got all of its sections...
However, I will stick to the belief that "forms is forms and sparring is sparring"; forms, like techniques, were created for "ideal" situations. I have yet to have an opponent hit me or attempt to hit me in an "ideal" situation. There is usually more going on....
"Forms are forms," and "sparring is sparring" only in schools who are unable to translate their forms into real techniques. I would recommend training with any Yiliquan people, Isshin-ryu under Sherman Harrill (in Iowa), or RyuTe Karate
anywhere if you want to see how forms translate into real techniques that work no matter what...
Anyway, not to argue with you. If you or your students pull off techniques, or if anyone else does, hey....more power to you. My opinions are my own, based on my experience. If I am wrong, so be it (I know I need to train more, anyway--always will!).
And we all need to train more... Good post!
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
