The value of forms

[Bill Mattocks]

I like to

- sweep my opponent's leading leg,
- push his leading arm to jam his back arm, and
- apply a head lock on his neck

I cannot find this combo ever been recorded in any forms that exist on this planet.

That mean:

- Information that has been recorded in the forms are not what I want to train.
- What I want to train is not in the form.

Both statements are untrue.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.

Also keep in mind some context here. Most of the people on here have been training for longer than you've been alive. Personally I've been training for ~20 years, which is less than a lot of the people on this forum. And I still don't feel that it's enough for me to be a head instructor somewhere.

 

[Headhunter]

its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.

Lol DD literally just shared his knowledge and you just jumped down his throat for doing so and yes the names very much matter. Because if you tell your students a vague definition of what they're learning and they go to another school who does use the proper names and they give the vague description then they're going to be not taken seriously and could result in them failing belt tests from other instructors because of this. That's my thing in this. The students. You can do what you wish for your own training but for your students you do need to tell them the exact names. I don't care much about the exact details either but when I'm teaching I make sure to tell those details for that very reason

 

[jobo]

Lol first you calling anyone habitually rude is just hilarious,

Second that is absolutely not what anyone has said. What's been said is how the op doesn't seem to have the experience and knowledge neccesary for a teacher. He hasn't necessarily questioned the validity of forms he's said he doesn't understand them and now according to DD he's said he teaches a system that's not actually a system.thats what's being said and what the op is upset about is people are questioning his knowledge of what he is teaching his students.

Nothing to do with the pointless argument you always like to engage in

he has question the value of the forms, that was the first few posts that you may not have taken the time to read such was your haist to pour scorn and derision on his head for asking a question

the reaction of some unnamed people has been to suggest this questioning arises out of ignorance of the forms. where as the fact he hasn't invested countless hours in learning t5hem, means he has clarity as to there usefulness or otherwise

 

[falcon]

falcon, this can be a rough crowd but the old guys here have a lot of knowledge...A Lot Of Knowledge.
Thing is most and I include myself in this...most are here to discuss things but not to actually 'teach'.
If you would like to discuss the merits of a particular application of a movement that's one thing but expecting someone to teach you what the many application potentials are...that's not going to go over well.

i am not really asking for someone to teach me i am asking some of the benenifits people have found and see if i can learn from the discussion, and i have learn some, and some of it i dont really agree with and other things i do. but telling so.eone the know notbing is pointless in my opinion. i am just try to get a discussion going about it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is,

My opinion is that forms ('kata' to me) are the heart and soul of karate, and for me, there is no karate without kata.

i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form.

Two options, in my opinion.

The first is that your forms are not good forms. This could be because they simply were not well designed, or it could be that you were not taught them well, or you didn't learn them well. I don't know your forms or your style, so I cannot assert that to be true. It's just an option.

The second is that you haven't learned enough about your forms to know that they "don't work." Lots of tools don't work if you don't know how to use them. I mean that not as a personal insult or attack. There is a great deal I do not know about techniques, which then of course means I cannot "make them work." Instead of criticizing the tool, however, I criticize myself, since I see by the evidence of my own senses that the tools *do* work, when a master applies them. It's not the tool. It's the person (mis)using it.

In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?

I have many answers to that question.

The first is there is little reason to change the technique if it is learned correctly. It will work if it works at all (see my comments above).

The second is that it's not hard to adapt a technique that has become locked into muscle memory if the need arises. The principles are what's important in self-defense, and most forms (kata to me) have an almost unlimited ability to be flexible. Most of us who practice kata see this expressed as various types of bunkai (practical application). A block becomes a grab, a push becomes a strike, and so on. Same movement, same body mechanics, same principles, just applied differently.

I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

There are many schools with do not use forms or kata. I believe that many of them teach good self-defense techniques and produce well-rounded martial artists. That does not change my opinion on the value of forms or kata.

To paraphrase a comment someone else made here - what good is a book if you cannot eat it? Well, if it teaches you to hunt or fish or grow crops, it might be a lot of good. Just because you can't immediately put it in your mouth doesn't mean it can't sustain you.

 

[falcon]

when i get to my computer i will right out what i see the benifits of forms are, and some of the things i dont like about them. i am going to do this to try to help get some discusion going about it going, and hopefully i dont end up regretting that, i apoligize if i sound rude in some of my comments. it wont be until late tonight that i can make that post though.

 

[jobo]

I mentioned this earlier in but it likely got lost-the biggest thing to me is that you're not still getting consistent training. You know you have a lot to learn, which is fine, but if you're teaching than there's an onus on you to go out of you way and make sure you continue learning.

thats a fair point, but is surely dependent on what he is learning as to if it benefits his students or not

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

thats a fair point, but is surely dependent on what he is learning as to if it benefits his students or not

If he's learning the system of kukkiwon tkd, and he's teaching kukkiwon tkd, I would hope that what he's learning would be applicable to his students. If not, there's a lot of bigger issues.

 

[jobo]

If he's learning the system of kukkiwon tkd, and he's teaching kukkiwon tkd, I would hope that what he's learning would be applicable to his students. If not, there's a lot of bigger issues.

but he is teaching disinterested kids, what expressly are you thinking he may learn that has a direct and tangible benefit to his students ?

may be if he attended and behaved like a disinterested kid he may pick up some pointers other than that i'm at a loss what your thinking of ! clearly learning forms are of no tangible benefit to him or the kids in question

 

[Bill Mattocks]

would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?

A form or kata offers the basics (we call those kihon) in a format that shows an actual application, which can be called bunkai (practical application). Along with the movement of the basic exercise, it teaches stance, balance, timing, distancing, speed, breathing, and body mechanics. Some of this can be learned by repetition of the exercise itself of course, but not as easily, in my opinion.

One of the ways in which we practice kata is with the use of a partner (uke) who provides the supposed attacks which provoke the movements of the kata. In other words, if a kata calls for a step forward with the left foot, left middle body block, and straight right punch, the uke will step and throw a right punch, then block the incoming punch on their left.

This answers the often-asked question of "what's it for" when a student is learning kata. They can easily see what it's for. There is an incoming attack. They step up, block, and counter.

After many repetitions, the skilled uke may vary the attack. Harder, faster, with different timing and focus points. The block will have to be solid, the counter punch must be fast and thrown true. The person doing the kata must be grounded with a solid stance, good body mechanics, even their breathing must be on point. They learn to detect the incoming attack in time to perform the kata, building up speed, threat detection, and so on. The advanced uke and tori (person doing the kata) begin to improvise. Perhaps the incoming punch is thrown with the left instead of the right. Maybe at the head instead of the middle body. And so on. They work the kata together - never abandoning the format of the kata, but being flexible about what it means. They can in time discover new principles and ways of seeing and responding to attack, and this is advanced bunkai.

I can teach a middle body block and counter punch in about 30 seconds to a student. I can correct the position of their block, their fist formation, their stance, and so on. If I'm a good teacher, I will see the weaknesses in their application of the basic movement. However, performing kata will do much to bring the student's work into alignment by itself, as bad balance will lead to stumbling, weak blocks won't stop an uke's punch, and so on.

A side effect of kata is that when done with a partner, it puts an end to the flinch reflex and the fear of being hit - because the student will get hit. It's no fun. Blocking seems more important when being hit, especially after the twentieth time in a row. A basic exercise by itself doesn't provide that.

 

[falcon]

I mentioned this earlier in but it likely got lost-the biggest thing to me is that you're not still getting consistent training. You know you have a lot to learn, which is fine, but if you're teaching than there's an onus on you to go out of you way and make sure you continue learning.

i dont train a lot directly under someone. i am still kinda training under my original teacher, but its very limited training, i train bjj and that has help me understand some moves in forms. i have seen that some of them could actually be a throw, but at the same time from training bjj i have also seen that you cant practice a throw unless you have a partner to throw. i have been wanting to train around some other tkd schools around me, but finding the time and money is very difficult so i am trying to figure that stuff out.

 

[Headhunter]

i dont train a lot directly under someone. i am still kinda training under my original teacher, but its very limited training, i train bjj and that has help me understand some moves in forms. i have seen that some of them could actually be a throw, but at the same time from training bjj i have also seen that you cant practice a throw unless you have a partner to throw. i have been wanting to train around some other tkd schools around me, but finding the time and money is very difficult so i am trying to figure that stuff out.

And how long have you been doing that for training every now and then? Because if that's how you've been doing all your training all your life it's no wonder your missing stuff being explained

 

[Headhunter]

i dont train a lot directly under someone. i am still kinda training under my original teacher, but its very limited training, i train bjj and that has help me understand some moves in forms. i have seen that some of them could actually be a throw, but at the same time from training bjj i have also seen that you cant practice a throw unless you have a partner to throw. i have been wanting to train around some other tkd schools around me, but finding the time and money is very difficult so i am trying to figure that stuff out.

Also I train bjj and they do solo drills as well for warm ups. Shrimping, bridges to mount, triangles, butt scoots and forward and backward rolls. So yes not forms but still a similar idea.

Chuck Norris has even said one of the Gracies or machados (can't remember which been a while since I saw the video) taught him a jiu jitsu kata so he could still practice his jiu jitsu even now he's got a lot of injuries and can't roll as well

 

[falcon]

only since i open my school, most of my trianing is going to the dojang everyday for about 5 years i am terrible with time frames so i just know it was around 5 years.

 

[Headhunter]

only since i open my school, most of my trianing is going to the dojang everyday for about 5 years i am terrible with time frames so i just know it was around 5 years.

if you've genuinely training daily for 5 years and still don't have the understanding of forms then that is your instructors fault. Which raises a lot of other questions. You need to find a guy who does the same style as you and get him to watch you do your stuff and see what he thinks. Because honestly if you're genuinely training daily for 5 years and don't have that basic knowledge then something isn't right

 

[falcon]

Also I train bjj and they do solo drills as well for warm ups. Shrimping, bridges to mount, triangles, butt scoots and forward and backward rolls. So yes not forms but still a similar idea.

Chuck Norris has even said one of the Gracies or machados (can't remember which been a while since I saw the video) taught him a jiu jitsu kata so he could still practice his jiu jitsu even now he's got a lot of injuries and can't roll as well

i have never heard of the form for bjj before, but for your first point i would agree you do that but its only one or to moves not 20 plus so i would consider that differnet then a form.

 

[jobo]

if you've genuinely training daily for 5 years and still don't have the understanding of forms then that is your instructors fault. Which raises a lot of other questions. You need to find a guy who does the same style as you and get him to watch you do your stuff and see what he thinks. Because honestly if you're genuinely training daily for 5 years and don't have that basic knowledge then something isn't right

but no one can understand forms as they don't make any sense at all. the best you will get if you ask for an explanation is a load of meaningless waffle , like Billl posted above. i know coz ive asked many times on here and elsewhere

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

but he is teaching disinterested kids, what expressly are you thinking he may learn that has a direct and tangible benefit to his students ?

may be if he attended and behaved like a disinterested kid he may pick up some pointers other than that i'm at a loss what your thinking of ! clearly learning forms are of no tangible benefit to him or the kids in question

I thought the issue was that he's not sure about the full usefulness of forms/parts of the system, not that the kids aren't interested in learning it. If I misread the issue then you're right my advice wouldn't really be helpful in getting kids engaged. Working at a summer/winter camp or daycare camp and seeing how the other supervisors/counselors interact with tbe kids to get them involved may help more.

 

[Headhunter]

i have never heard of the form for bjj before, but for your first point i would agree you do that but its only one or to moves not 20 plus so i would consider that differnet then a form.

No it isn't. It's exactly the same thing.....it's the same as me doing a shrimp, then a bridge to mount then a triangle. All a form is is a bunch of moves put together for exercise purposes. For example a first move of a from step back block punch, then transition to 6 o clock and do an inside block then a roundhouse kick, then turn to 3 do a downward block and an elbow.

That's not all one big choreography it's different drills put together. The first drill is step back block punch that's one drill

The second is inside block roundhouse kick.


Honestly I'm sorry but this is first week stuff I'm explaining here. Yes different styles but if I didn't know that I wouldn't have gotten my first belt. You need to find a new teacher if this wasn't explained to you