Value of upper level forms?

[HighKick]

I agree with Haruhiko that deep stances in kata were not put in to build strength (a deep stance is low, like a horse can be, but if you're talking about a "forward" stance, there is also a weight distribution factor - I'm not sure how you meant it, but no matter). There are better ways to do that. Stances, like ALL kata techniques/postures, are meant to be functional in a self-defense context. But as this context has been often sublimated in favor of competitive or exercise goals, the intended purpose being lost in the evolution of modern karate to a greater or lesser degree depending on the style.

Then, why is there a low/deep stance? After all, it generally limits your agility. What is its/their value? My initial answer is "NONE." In many/most cases there is no martial value in being in a low stance. The value is found in getting into a low stance. Like any other karate technique, the value is not so much its static position, but in its kinetic motion on its way to that position. This is where the work is done. What work?

1. Early karate had a lot of stand-up grappling. When this is the case a lower center of gravity is helpful. When trying to figure out a bunkai, a low stance is one indicator that some of this is going on. (Here, there is some value in this static position).

2. A lot of times when you grab someone it's with the intention of pulling or throwing him down. Getting into a low stance is part of the technique as your weight doing down adds power.

3. The same applies for a downward strike. Ed Parker called this "marriage of gravity."

4. In the case of a forward stance/zenkutsu-dachi, the process of moving some of your weight to the forward leg can drive it into the opponent's leg, buckling his stance and balance.

We are on the same page. I never thought anyone would think I meant you miraculously find yourself in a deep stance. Naturally, a big part of the stance is getting into it and out of it. I just assumed that was rather obvious.

There are important nuances with stance work when it comes to kicking as well. There is a myriad of stance/footwork options depending on which leg you are kicking (lead/rear), the direction you are kicking (literally 360°), what you are kicking (leg, body, head), whether you are rotating, etc... The list goes on and on.

But specific to deep stances in floor drills or forms, they do build leg, back and core strength.

 

[Haruhiko]

Then, why is there a low/deep stance? After all, it generally limits your agility. What is its/their value? My initial answer is "NONE." In many/most cases there is no martial value in being in a low stance. The value is found in getting into a low stance. Like any other karate technique, the value is not so much its static position, but in its kinetic motion on its way to that position. This is where the work is done. What work?

Exactly! It's the getting into, and then transition into, that the kata expects of the student's body and mind. It's not practical - it's anticipation around the context of the kata's purpose.

 

[HighKick]

I think you misunderstood the sarcasm/him using that as a way to portray the issue with the initial post

If it was sarcasm, yes, I missed it. Too much math in this engineering head to immediately whittle things down to basic arithmetic. Usually, getting to a basic arithmetic solution takes some very elegant math in my work.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Exactly! It's the getting into, and then transition into, that the kata expects of the student's body and mind.

Not just kata, combat (individual and large scale) is all about transition. From stance to stance, guard to guard, from defense to offense, side to side, circular to linear, straight to angled, and the list goes on. It is the crucial time between two different movements or postures. IMO, the ability to transist from one of these to the other is the greatest skill a fighter can have. Failure to do it well with proper timing and balance will result in a hesitation or leaving you vulnerable.

Have two students spar - one is told to be the attacker, the other can only defend. The action is fast and furious. Then yell, "switch!" - their roles to reverse. Unless they are very good, advanced fighters, the action will completely stop, both frozen for a second or two - a long time in the midst of flying punches and kicks. This example well illustrates the challenges of transition from defense to offense. Others are less obvious but just as crucial.

Most traditional kata have a lot of various transitions in them and is one area I think kata can directly benefit combat. Whether pre-planned or in response to something unexpected, transitions often are the key to success.

 

[TenHands]

Sure, they can be useful.

Hand techniques: You can train any of them in a "fighting" manner on a heavy bag and make them work. Just stay away from finger strikes and such because they're useless.

Foot techniques: Also good, as long as you stay away from kicks like the snapping side kick or ball-of-foot roundhouse because they're equally useless.

Throws: Dual-hand techniques work well as throws. I have found some good success using yama zuki to train the o-goshi throw. Just stay away from wrist locks and such because those are useless.

 

[wab25]

If it was sarcasm, yes, I missed it. Too much math in this engineering head to immediately whittle things down to basic arithmetic. Usually, getting to a basic arithmetic solution takes some very elegant math in my work.

There was some sarcasm.... But, you are sort of adding to my point.

Sure, all I need to do is practice punching. Depending on the skill level and determination of the other guy.... it may take some very elegant set up work to land that punch in such a way that it is effective. Which is why, first you learn to punch, then you learn to set it up, counter it... etc.

But, if all you need is to learn to punch.... and you want to spend all your time just training your punch... and leave all that extra stuff behind.... I expect you to have a really strong, fast punch.... that you can't land on a target, who spent time learning all that other stuff....

Note: all computers do is add. When you see computers solving complex equations.... all it is doing is adding. Someone had to do the work, to get that complex problem into a form where adding is all that is needed. Again, that was sort of my point.... you need to study more than just adding, even if all you want to do is add. Some problems might need more understanding to solve by adding....

 

[HighKick]

There was some sarcasm.... But, you are sort of adding to my point.

Sure, all I need to do is practice punching. Depending on the skill level and determination of the other guy.... it may take some very elegant set up work to land that punch in such a way that it is effective. Which is why, first you learn to punch, then you learn to set it up, counter it... etc.

But, if all you need is to learn to punch.... and you want to spend all your time just training your punch... and leave all that extra stuff behind.... I expect you to have a really strong, fast punch.... that you can't land on a target, who spent time learning all that other stuff....

Note: all computers do is add. When you see computers solving complex equations.... all it is doing is adding. Someone had to do the work, to get that complex problem into a form where adding is all that is needed. Again, that was sort of my point.... you need to study more than just adding, even if all you want to do is add. Some problems might need more understanding to solve by adding....

PC's (and most other computers) are capable of addition, subtraction, multiplication, & division.

 

[Haruhiko]

PC's (and most other computers) are capable of addition, subtraction, multiplication, & division.

With explicit high-level input only from a user. Other than that, all they do is process and hold 0/1 states at the low-level.

 

[HighKick]

With explicit high-level input only from a user. Other than that, all they do is process and hold 0/1 states at the low-level.

Yes, but my oh my what you can do with a one or zero state! This is where the processor comes in.

 

[_Simon_]

Guys, stop flirting with me. Sheesh.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It's crazy to me how much an agreement on what is pretty much a fact on how computers work can sound like an argument on this forum.

 

[Haruhiko]

It's crazy to me how much an agreement on what is pretty much a fact on how computers work can sound like an argument on this forum.

This is how the Butlerian Jihad begins in our timeline. It all starts here. Next we'll have a mentat forum for sapho juice addicts.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Guys, stop flirting with me. Sheesh.

I'm celibate and I have to have my fun where I can

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm celibate and I have to have my fun where I can

Martial arts: because if you can't get some, you might as well kick some!

 

[windwalker099]

As what we would come to call "styles" developed, masters would select forms taught by their teachers (yes, multiple) to incorporate into their own method/style. The next step was to determine in what order to teach them.

Sounds a lot like N-Mantis

Wang Lang (王朗): Traditionally credited as the creator of Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

It is said that he told his followers to go out and catch a mantis..the names, came from the markings on the mantis's back.
The story, may not match historical records.

Seven Star Praying Mantis (七星螳螂拳)
Plum Blossom Praying Mantis (梅花螳螂拳)
Six Harmony Praying Mantis (六合螳螂拳)
Eight Step Praying Mantis (八步螳螂拳)
Tai Chi Praying Mantis (太極螳螂拳)
Secret Door Praying Mantis (秘門螳螂拳)


Each of Wang Lang's followers likely had their own martial arts background and experience,
creating their own style based on the main style as taught by Wang Lang.

 

[windwalker099]

Have two students spar - one is told to be the attacker, the other can only defend. The action is fast and furious. Then yell, "switch!" - their roles to reverse. Unless they are very good, advanced fighters, the action will completely stop, both frozen for a second or two - a long time in the midst of flying punches and kicks. This example well illustrates the challenges of transition from defense to offense. Others are less obvious but just as crucial.

A variation of this exercise:

We draw a circle and split it in half. One person stands in the center inside the circle, while the other is outside. The person inside is tasked with preventing the person outside from getting to the other side, while the person outside aims to cross to the other side. The objective is not to defeat the opponent but to control the space, either by engaging or preventing engagement.

In most CMA styles, there isn't a strict separation between attack and defense. Each aspect is blended using various theories to explain this integration, such as the 5 Elements, Taiji, and 8 Gates, among others.

Most traditional kata have a lot of various transitions in them and is one area I think kata can directly benefit combat. Whether pre-planned or in response to something unexpected, transitions often are the key to success.

In CMA, there is a concept referred to as "live" and "dead" when observing someone perform a form. This can be likened to playing an instrument; the way one "plays" the form or set is crucial. This approach seems different from what has been previously discussed.

Live and Dead: These terms are used to describe the quality and spirit of the performance. A "live" performance is vibrant, dynamic, and filled with energy and intent, while a "dead" performance lacks these qualities and appears mechanical or lifeless.

We spake of playing a Form: Just as a musician interprets a piece of music with emotion and skill, a martial artist performs a form with a similar depth of expression, showcasing their understanding and internalization of the art.

 

[Haruhiko]

Guys, stop flirting with me. Sheesh.

Tell me about your bitrate

 

[Hot Lunch]

A lot of people get to the point where they memorized the moves and can do them in order, and think that they have now mastered that kata and are ready for the next. This gets you a set of line dances and in many places a set of impressive looking belts. But, if you are looking for a martial art.... you passed all the trees and never saw the forest.... but hey, at least you have some neat looking belts and a title.....

You don't want to stay in grade school forever. Soon or later, you need to move into high school.

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Going through grade school 6 times won't get you a PhD degree.

Form training has 3 levels:

- beginner level.
- intermediate level.
- advance level.

These are two different ways of looking at it.

The concept of "beginner kata" started with Itosu creating the Pinan series. Other styles introduced similar concepts with Miyagi and Nagamine creating Gekisai/Fukyugata; then on down to "kihon katas" such as the Taikyoku series created by Gigo Funakoshi.

Before all that, you were given Passai, or Kusanku, or one of the katas that we consider to be "intermediate" or "advanced."

The beginner katas were created for you to move up. Just because you learn a new kata doesn't mean you stop learning from the ones you've been training on before.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just because you learn a new kata doesn't mean you stop learning from the ones you've been training on before.

After you have learned your advance form, you will still train your beginner level form but with more advance concept.

For example, when you train

- beginner level form, an upward block is just an upward block.
- advance level form, an upward block is to lift a curtain and walk in under it.

In other words, the

- beginner level training can be static.
- advance level train can be dynamic with footwork.

 

[Stuarto]

After you have learned your advance form, you will still train your beginner level form but with more advance concept.

For example, when you train

- beginner level form, an upward block is just an upward block.
- advance level form, an upward block is to lift a curtain and walk in under it.

In other words, the

- beginner level training can be static.
- advance level train can be dynamic with footwork.

I have started to experience a little bit of this with more katas and also pinan. Learning each individual kata and then later combining them. It is really great to start to see it come together. The hardest thing is changing it up once you have one thing ingrained as muscle memory. Throws me off a little!