The value of forms

[dvcochran]

Most people may understand "copy". Some people may not understand "modify".

My MA teacher had lived in my house for quite some time (I can't get any personal training better than that). One day when he saw me train the short form (drill) that he taught me. He asked me what I was doing. I told him that I just trained the short form that he taught me.

He then said, "Form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training. This 'diagonal strike' solo form that I taught you can be used for 'single leg' and also be used for 'front cut'.

If you use it for

- single leg, your left hand should be below your right arm to catch your opponent's leading leg (use hand to get leg).
- front cut, your right leg should be hook back and up your opponent's leading leg (use leg to get leg).

Since the 'diagonal strike' form can map into different applications (such as single leg , front cut, break apart a strong grip, …), when you train, you should not just train the "abstract principle". You should map it into "concrete" application."

After that day, I understood the true meaning of "self training". I'm not suppose to just copy. I need to modify to meet my need.

I say this all the time; we have to learn the why and not just the how of a form or concept.

 

[Gweilo]

Wtf.....I'm trying to work out if you're serious here....I haven't called anyone an idiot. Please quote me where I have because I believe I know where your mind is going and if I'm right I have to say thank you because you just made me laugh a lot

I apologise, It was late here, and I did not read the post fully, sorry, but I'm glad it made you smile.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.

I believe you are incorrect. If a person posts and asks why it is hot in December and cold in July, knowing that he lives in Australia gives context to his question.

Likewise, when a person asks a series of questions here that appear to be coming from someone who is maybe 14 or 15 years old, with limited training and a rather one-sided understanding of what martial arts actually is, it may add context to know more about them.

Context matters. If you do not understand that, I don't think I can add much more to this conversation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a person posts and asks why it is hot in December and cold in July, knowing that he lives in Australia gives context to his question.

A: Why it is hot in December and cold in July?
B: In a year, there will always be a month that is colder (or hotter) than another month no matter where you may live on this planet.

If a discussion (such as the value of forms) become "general MA discussion", the OP's MA background will no longer be important.

 

[dvcochran]

Don't know. At our school, I think we fight using WTF rules. Kind of schizophrenic, ITF forms and curriculum with WTF sparring rules, but that is how we do it.

I found this very interesting. There are 24 ITF forms if memory serves? What are the other parts of your curriculum (one-steps, etc...)? So you never punch to the face in sparring? I think this is the first time I have heard of a school mixing ITF & WT(F) together in class. Cool.

 

[mrt2]

I found this very interesting. There are 24 ITF forms if memory serves? What are the other parts of your curriculum (one-steps, etc...)? So you never punch to the face in sparring? I think this is the first time I have heard of a school mixing ITF & WTF together in class. Cool.

Yes, 24 ITF forms, but our school also teaches/practices Koryo, which is a WTF form, I believe. I hope someday when I make 1st Dan, I can use this fact to persuade my teacher to add Bassai to our curriculum, as he has told me it was part of his father's curriculum years ago. Bassai was my favorite form I learned back in my old Tang Soo Do days, and my understanding is some TKD schools still teach it.

As far as the rest of our curriculum, there are 13 basics, 20 one steps, 20 sparring combinations, and something called linear forms, which is not a standard TKD thing, but something our school does. They are forms that focus more on kicking, and unlike the standard forms, with these forms, you start in one place and mostly move forward so you don't wind up in the same place you started.

 

[jobo]

I believe you are incorrect. If a person posts and asks why it is hot in December and cold in July, knowing that he lives in Australia gives context to his question.

Likewise, when a person asks a series of questions here that appear to be coming from someone who is maybe 14 or 15 years old, with limited training and a rather one-sided understanding of what martial arts actually is, it may add context to know more about them.

Context matters. If you do not understand that, I don't think I can add much more to this conversation.

don't wish to pick, but more than half the globe is hot in december, you cant narrow it down to australia and most of australia isn't cold in july

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Since we are talking about the form, there are good form design and there are bad form design.

- A good form design will make you to feel good after training.
- A bad form design will make you to feel tired after training.

For example, you can repeat this form 20 times non-stop and you may still not feel tired at all.

What's your opinion about this form design?

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, 24 ITF forms, but our school also teaches/practices Koryo, which is a WTF form, I believe. I hope someday when I make 1st Dan, I can use this fact to persuade my teacher to add Bassai to our curriculum, as he has told me it was part of his father's curriculum years ago. Bassai was my favorite form I learned back in my old Tang Soo Do days, and my understanding is some TKD schools still teach it.

As far as the rest of our curriculum, there are 13 basics, 20 one steps, 20 sparring combinations, and something called linear forms, which is not a standard TKD thing, but something our school does. They are forms that focus more on kicking, and unlike the standard forms, with these forms, you start in one place and mostly move forward so you don't wind up in the same place you started.

Bassia (Batsai) is a form seen in several styles. I know Shotokan has a version. It appears to be very similar regardless of style. There are the normal mechanical/style differences but from what I remember they are essentially the same.
I am not familiar with the linear form you mention. There are three Naihanchi froms which are linear but very few kicks in them, and you end at/near the starting point.
We teach Bassai as the main testing form for 1st Dan BB. Koryo is next in order.
Google Geumgang poomsae. I think you may find it surprisingly interesting. Very, very different in movement and principle.

 

[Balrog]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is,

Discipline. Focus. Concentration. Self-improvement. And a host of other things.

i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?

Then you are doing them incorrectly in either the form or in other applications, such as sparring. A side kick is a side kick. Pivot, chamber, extend, rechamber, recover. Now, did you do that in a form or in a sparring match? It should be the same both ways.

 

[mrt2]

Bassia (Batsai) is a form seen in several styles. I know Shotokan has a version. It appears to be very similar regardless of style. There are the normal mechanical/style differences but from what I remember they are essentially the same.
I am not familiar with the linear form you mention. There are three Naihanchi froms which are linear but very few kicks in them, and you end at/near the starting point.
We teach Bassai as the main testing form for 1st Dan BB. Koryo is next in order.
Google Geumgang poomsae. I think you may find it surprisingly interesting. Very, very different in movement and principle.

Bassai was the highest form I learned in Tang Soo Do, and I would like to practice it again, maybe someday teach it to our students. I think it would slot nicely in between Hwa Rang and Chung Moo at the high brown belt level. Plus, in our system, people generally are at high brown anywhere between 5 to 9 months before testing for probationary black belt, so there is enough time to learn two forms in that time.

I am aware our linears are not a standard part of TKD. I think our head instructor, or maybe his father invented them. The explanation I got was, these are more focused on blocks, punches, and kicks from a fighting stance and unlike our standard forms, they don't all start with a block. Some start with a punch, others with a kick.

 

[jobo]

Discipline. Focus. Concentration. Self-improvement. And a host of other things.

Then you are doing them incorrectly in either the form or in other applications, such as sparring. A side kick is a side kick. Pivot, chamber, extend, rechamber, recover. Now, did you do that in a form or in a sparring match? It should be the same both ways.

maybe it has those benefits, but probably its doesnt ? at least no more than say doing a jigsaw.

but the context of the question was, do they improve fighting efficiency over art that dont practice forms and the answer to that is a decisive no

 

[geezer]

Discipline. Focus. Concentration. Self-improvement...

Not for me. In fact when I'm alone, trying to catch up on work and getting really bored, I often sneak off to run through a form or two, ...then I dawdle away the time and end up even more behind.

That's not giving me discipline, concentration or helping me improve myself where I need it most at the moment.

But, I do enjoy it. And getting off the computer once in a while isn't such a terrible thing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm sure you think that, but I'm not sure it's true.



I suspect you lack a qualified instructor. Whenever I feel that a particular move has no value or practical application, I ask my instructor. In more than 12 years, he has not failed to provide instant and painful tuition that convinces me I simply did not see it.

More basic - just because you don't see the value, does not mean the value is not there. .

This brings to mind a quote Ed Parker was fond of saying: "To hear is to misunderstand, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to know.

By the way, falcon, you have been used and abused here, kind of like the new guy in prison - not to say you didn't invite it by being a little naïve and clueless in some of your posts. Perhaps you are a masochist, or just egging us on for fun. If not, you're getting great training in absorbing attacks. Now, work on your counters. Maybe some can be found in your forms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Discipline. Focus. Concentration. Self-improvement. And a host of other things.

I may add in "health" into your list.

My doctor suggests me to stop my 3 miles running (I may hurt my knees one day). I'm trying to start my form training again to replace my running.

If you drill your form 20 times non-stop, you will get similar result as "long distance running".

Non-stop is the keyword. Don't take any break between your 20 reps.

 

[Flying Crane]

I may add in "health" into your list.

My doctor suggests me to stop my 3 miles running (I may hurt my knees one day). I'm trying to start my form training again to replace my running.

If you drill your form 20 times non-stop, you will get similar result as "long distance running".

Non-stop is the keyword. Don't take any break between your 20 reps.

Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest. Not if they are being done right. Nobody.

 

[dvcochran]

Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest. Not if they are being done right. Nobody.

I was thinking the same thing. KMA and JMA forms have too many anaerobic motions to keep doing like a marathon runner.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest. Not if they are being done right. Nobody.

I was thinking the same thing. KMA and JMA forms have too many anaerobic motions to keep doing like a marathon runner.

None of them?

 

[Buka]

This brings to mind a quote Ed Parker was fond of saying: "To hear is to misunderstand, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to know.

By the way, falcon, you have been used and abused here, kind of like the new guy in prison - not to say you didn't invite it by being a little naïve and clueless in some of your posts. Perhaps you are a masochist, or just egging us on for fun. If not, you're getting great training in absorbing attacks. Now, work on your counters. Maybe some can be found in your forms.

Tell you a funny story about that.....

I was training with Ed one day when he said to me, "To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe." I thought that pretty cool, probably because he said it, but didn't really give it much thought, if any.

Less than a week later I was at the range, training to qualify to become a cop. I already had had a permit to carry and was familiar with both firearms and the qualification process.

On lunch break the Range Master, a grizzled old man, summoned me back to the range on the loudspeaker. So back I went. This is an indoor range I'm speaking off.

When I enter the lights are off. There's a small, ceiling spotlight on the backstop, where there's two blue balloons affixed about six feet high, about ten feet apart.

A third of the way down range another ceiling spot light is shining on a low podium, where the Range master is adjusting this big old meat knife that is sticking into the podium, something that looked like you would use to behead a steer.

At the front of the range, another spotlight is shining on a small chair and a spotting scope.

He fiddles with the knife, then sits in the chair checking it with the scope, then adjusts the chair, making quite the production out of it.

He says to me, "I'm going to shoot, one shot, hit that knife, split the bullet in two and hit both those balloons." I'm thinking to myself, "sure you are, un huh."

He sits in the chair, looks, nods, gets up and straddles the chair, his back now to the balloons. He puts on ear protection and picks up one of those old lady make-up mirrors. They look like a big lollipop. He holds it in front of him with one hand and rests the pistol over his shoulder with the other. Now I'm thinking, "this poor old man is going to seriously embarrass himself."

He makes several adjustments, checks the scope again, then the knife, blah blah, blah.
Then takes a big inhale and lets it out slowly, then shoots...........BLAM, both balloons are obliterated!

My eyes open as wide as saucers. He says, "Go back to lunch, rookie." Back I go. And when I get there, I say to the other dozen or so veteran cops "Holy crap, I just saw the greatest shot I've ever seen! Gene just split a bullet on a -" And all the guys break up laughing.
THEY tell me, go back there right now, rook, he just summoned you just before you got here.

So back I go. Two more balloons are up. He hands me the pistol and says "Shoot the backstop, anywhere in the middle of those balloons.

I do. They both explode. He asks, "Are all Karate guys as blind dumb as you, or are you special? The bullet shatters, the fragments break the balloons. Don't believe everything you see, rookie. And don't believe everything someone tells you. Investigate."

An right at that very second I hear Ed Parker's voice in my head..."to hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived."

I'm a little slow on the uptake at times. But I started to listen to teachers in a different way after that.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Tell you a funny story about that.....

I was training with Ed one day when he said to me, "To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe." I thought that pretty cool, probably because he said it, but didn't really give it much thought, if any.

Less than a week later I was at the range, training to qualify to become a cop. I already had had a permit to carry and was familiar with both firearms and the qualification process.

On lunch break the Range Master, a grizzled old man, summoned me back to the range on the loudspeaker. So back I went. This is an indoor range I'm speaking off.

When I enter the lights are off. There's a small, ceiling spotlight on the backstop, where there's two blue balloons affixed about six feet high, about ten feet apart.

A third of the way down range another ceiling spot light is shining on a low podium, where the Range master is adjusting this big old meat knife that is sticking into the podium, something that looked like you would use to behead a steer.

At the front of the range, another spotlight is shining on a small chair and a spotting scope.

He fiddles with the knife, then sits in the chair checking it with the scope, then adjusts the chair, making quite the production out of it.

He says to me, "I'm going to shoot, one shot, hit that knife, split the bullet in two and hit both those balloons." I'm thinking to myself, "sure you are, un huh."

He sits in the chair, looks, nods, gets up and straddles the chair, his back now to the balloons. He puts on ear protection and picks up one of those old lady make-up mirrors. They look like a big lollipop. He holds it in front of him with one hand and rests the pistol over his shoulder with the other. Now I'm thinking, "this poor old man is going to seriously embarrass himself."

He makes several adjustments, checks the scope again, then the knife, blah blah, blah.
Then takes a big inhale and lets it out slowly, then shoots...........BLAM, both balloons are obliterated!

My eyes open as wide as saucers. He says, "Go back to lunch, rookie." Back I go. And when I get there, I say to the other dozen or so veteran cops "Holy crap, I just saw the greatest shot I've ever seen! Gene just split a bullet on a -" And all the guys break up laughing.
THEY tell me, go back there right now, rook, he just summoned you just before you got here.

So back I go. Two more balloons are up. He hands me the pistol and says "Shoot the backstop, anywhere in the middle of those balloons.

I do. They both explode. He asks, "Are all Karate guys as blind dumb as you, or are you special? The bullet shatters, the fragments break the balloons. Don't believe everything you see, rookie. And don't believe everything someone tells you. Investigate."

An right at that very second I hear Ed Parker's voice in my head..."to hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived."

I'm a little slow on the uptake at times. But I started to listen to teachers in a different way after that.

That's an awesome story. Love it.