"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[drop bear]

They call it improvising and I think that's what most martial artists are missing.

In part. It is also about training under different dynamics. So today i did shoot boxing. Which is kind of MMA but with boxing gloves.

Now it favors certain types of attacks while making other attacks more difficult. So i put emphasis on certain tactics. When i do BJJ tonight it will favor different attacks. And so I will focus more on those.

This idea that your whole style has to be at a certain range doing a certain method is very limiting.

And it seems some martial arts are very focused on this one method. And then the strict rules to defeat that method.

 

[Dylan9d]

In part. It is also about training under different dynamics. So today i did shoot boxing. Which is kind of MMA but with boxing gloves.

Now it favors certain types of attacks while making other attacks more difficult. So i put emphasis on certain tactics. When i do BJJ tonight it will favor different attacks. And so I will focus more on those.

This idea that your whole style has to be at a certain range doing a certain method is very limiting.

And it seems some martial arts are very focused on this one method. And then the strict rules to defeat that method.

I really have the feeling that this is the case with WC/VT/WT, they train to defend against their specific rule set. Maybe I'm completly wrong but that's the feeling I had when I trained a couple of times at different Wing Chun / Ving Tsun school.

I do feel that it is an art that can be made effective.

 

[Hazardi172]

See, here is where you create a problem. It is not meaningless. We have been telling you what it means. You can choose not to use it in your understanding of Wing Chun. But that does not make it "meaningless.

In WSL VT it is a meaningless idea, or so trivial as to not be worth mentioning . It isn't a matter of my choice, just the way it is with the WSL VT system! I fully acknowledge that it might be a useful idea in other martial arts , including other wing chun, and that it might in fact be critical to your wing chun, JKD or whatever else you do. If you are into grappling with wing chun, trapping arms, standing close to the opponent and so on then I can see why it might be helpful to think in this way

Its just like your denying that someone was able to cover 8 feet quickly with a kick and only one step despite my posting a video of it.

Pic 1- start

Pic 2- kicker takes a step forward with back foot

Pic 3- kicker plants back foot (1 step)

Pic 4- kicker steps with front foot

Pic 5- kicker pushes off back foot and makes a small jump forward. Frame speed not fast enough to catch time in air but compare with next pic to see back foot advanced

Pic 6- kicker lands again on back foot, front foot still in the air (2 steps)

Pic 7- kicker lands on front foot, drags rear foot forward (3 or 4 steps, depending on whether you count the drag)

Pic 8- kicker fully airborne, feet cross

Pic 9- kicker lands rear leg after jump then impacts pad with front leg (4 or 5 steps). You could argue that he's doing a flying kick and impacting before grounding which would make 3 or 4 steps, but then impact much reduced. I mean we can also do superman punches, but we don't because it is not sensible .

Overall the lowest possible number of steps possible to count for this kick is 3, and so you are mistaken. This is why I argued against your point, and why posting the video not the same as looking carefully at it. It is a bit like the video Juany posted of Dwight Hemmings doing the VT punch, followed it with a video of someone else doing a different type of punch, and said they were the same .

Any hostility is simply frustration with the way you have been posting and failing to see or acknowledge points that people have gone to efforts to explain in pretty good detail. That has been pointed out to you several times as well. But you choose to ignore all of that. Conversation is a two-way street. You make points. But you acknowledge other people's points as well. Most people here feel like they have been banging their head against a wall trying to discuss this with you. That was a very frequent problem with Guy! But Guy would do this on purpose just to see how many people he could irritate. Is that your game as well?

I acknowledge that people do things differently in different martial arts compared to WSL VT . I think I have said this several times . I don't really understand what else you want from me? Since I don't know JKD, Aikido and so on, it is very hard for me to say well done that's great, because I don't understand what you are trying to do in the first place! I can only speak from my own point of view which is WSL VT

As for your bit of advice about acknowledging points, I think you could do well to take a bit of your own advice . None of the people arguing so strongly over this discussion have agreed with any of the basic and sensible points about the footwork that I have made!

 

[KPM]

I really have the feeling that this is the case with WC/VT/WT, they train to defend against their specific rule set. Maybe I'm completly wrong but that's the feeling I had when I trained a couple of times at different Wing Chun / Ving Tsun school.

I do feel that it is an art that can be made effective.

That is true for far too many Wing Chun schools. Not all. But a lot of them! Too many don't spar at all, or when they do spar it is against fellow students from their school also doing Wing Chun. Or a fellow Wing Chun student that will try and represent a boxer or a kicker and give the Wing Chun person a false sense of effectiveness because their fellow student isn't really very good at boxing or kicking!

 

[KPM]

In WSL VT it is a meaningless idea, or so trivial as to not be worth mentioning . It isn't a matter of my choice, just the way it is with the WSL VT system! I fully acknowledge that it might be a useful idea in other martial arts ,

---But you haven't acknowledged that is past posts! In past posts you just seemed to deny that any of us knew what we were talking about. THAT is what creates any animosity you are sensing.



including other wing chun, and that it might in fact be critical to your wing chun, JKD or whatever else you do. If you are into grappling with wing chun, trapping arms, standing close to the opponent and so on then I can see why it might be helpful to think in this way

---See. Here it is again.....here you are finally acknowledging what we have said, but then qualify it by implying that if we have to think that way in our Wing Chun, then there is probably something wrong with our Wing Chun! That is exactly what Guy used to do. He concluded that everyone's Wing Chun other than WSLVT was somehow "broken". The little smiley faces you use don't cover over the fact that you post as if you think you are right and everyone else must be somehow wrong.

Pic 1- start

---Sorry. My work computer won't let those pics come through. I'll have to check it at home tonight. But the kicker does acknowledge that he takes a little "stutter step" for the last two kicks, and even says at the beginning of the video that the goal is to kick without any kind of "running start" and this is hard to do. But those little stutter steps for his last two kicks don't really add much other than getting his momentum going. They are not really full steps, and there is no way he is taking 3 or 4 steps.. Look at all the kicks preceding the final two. Here is the video again. Does anyone else here think this guy is taking multiple steps to do this kick????

As for your bit of advice about acknowledging points, I think you could do well to take a bit of your own advice . None of the people arguing so strongly over this discussion have agreed with any of the basic and sensible points about the footwork that I have made!

---Really? I suggest you go back and reread some posts. Again, you weren't saying anything special. People acknowledged that.

 

[Hazardi172]

But you haven't acknowledged that is past posts! In past posts you just seemed to deny that any of us knew what we were talking about. THAT is what creates any animosity you are sensing

Maybe you missed it, or got angry thinking I was your enemy the "Guy"

Please see here, here, here, here, here, here, and here

I hope this reassures you that I am very happy to accept that other understandings have value in other martial arts. I hope that you can extend the same courtesy to me and that we can avoid angry talk in future

including other wing chun, and that it might in fact be critical to your wing chun, JKD or whatever else you do. If you are into grappling with wing chun, trapping arms, standing close to the opponent and so on then I can see why it might be helpful to think in this way

---See. Here it is again.....here you are finally acknowledging what we have said, but then qualify it by implying that if we have to think that way in our Wing Chun, then there is probably something wrong with our Wing Chun! That is exactly what Guy used to do. He concluded that everyone's Wing Chun other than WSLVT was somehow "broken". The little smiley faces you use don't cover over the fact that you post as if you think you are right and everyone else must be somehow wrong.

In the above I am seeing why it would be helpful to think in the way you are talking about if your wing chun does the things you have said it does. How could this possibly be taken as a criticism?

I have to say that it looks like you are imagining criticism where there is none. You seem very sensitive for some reason?

My work computer won't let those pics come through. I'll have to check it at home tonight. But the kicker does acknowledge that he takes a little "stutter step" for the last two kicks, and even says at the beginning of the video that the goal is to kick without any kind of "running start" and this is hard to do. But those little stutter steps for his last two kicks don't really add much other than getting his momentum going. They are not really full steps, and there is no way he is taking 3 or 4 steps.. Look at all the kicks preceding the final two. Here is the video again. Does anyone else here think this guy is taking multiple steps to do this kick????

This is a different video. In this clip however, he is drawing up the back leg, then kicking- 2 step. Punch with footwork is a 1 step movement, first punch lands with first foot.

Also there is more than one prior step when he gets to beyond practical fighting range, while at longer fighting range he is doing a flying kick with consequent lack of power and extreme telegraphing due to the short step required to launch a kick.

This kind of kick might work well under JKD conditions, but in terms of WSL VT it would be pretty much useless, leaving the kicker exposed and helpless due to slowness, lack of power, full commitment without cover, and telegraphing.

The clip you actually posted from which I took the pictures has many steps before the kick so yes would be good if you have a look when you get home.

I suggest you go back and reread some posts. Again, you weren't saying anything special. People acknowledged that.

Please see posts above where I acknowledge that different ideas are relevant in different martial arts approaches. Acknowledging that someone is saying nothing special when it plainly and logically contradicts what was being talked about before is called bad temper and/or entrenched bias

I hope you can manage to get over this in future, and that we can post productively together on the forum

 

[Hazardi172]

The little smiley faces you use don't cover over the fact that you post as if you think you are right and everyone else must be somehow wrong.

I missed this bit. I use the faces to show what I am feeling for the infomation of others. This is why smiley faces, confused faces, sad faces, winks, and so on

Again no idea how you could take offence at the idea someone is chatting with you and smiling (now I am confused!)

 

[geezer]

I missed this bit. I use the faces to show what I am feeling for the infomation of others. This is why smiley faces, confused faces, sad faces, winks, and so on

Again no idea how you could take offence at the idea someone is chatting with you and smiling (now I am confused!)

Hazardi -- as the discussion progresses, I think it's becoming pretty clear that you aren't "Guy", and that unlike him, you are actually interested in exchanging information.

Now regarding the whole "sweet-spot" thing. I personally think range is a very important consideration in fighting, but if that mental construct isn't used in WSL-VT, that's fine with me. And it's no reflection on who's correct. WSL and some of his more accomplished students have proved that his system is effective. Different people look at things differently, and still get good results. So I thank you for your input.

Now, you made a different point regarding the two videos on WC/VT punching that I hope you can clarify. I believe that you stated that the first video featuring Dwight Hammonds (?) was essentially the same or similar to what you train, while the second video was quite a bit different. Could you please point out the key differences that make the punching in the second video different from your VT?

(Note the Vulcan above: I'm trying to be logical here and look at the facts! )

 

[Vajramusti]

I find this whole thread to be quite messy.I quit reading it carefully.But some things are obvious. Hazardi is not Guy and his perspective
seems to be rooted in WSL wing chun
KPM continues his style of zigzagging through.

 

[KPM]

I find this whole thread to be quite messy.I quit reading it carefully.But some things are obvious. Hazardi is not Guy and his perspective
seems to be rooted in WSL wing chun
KPM continues his style of zigzagging through.

And how do you know that if you did not read the thread carefully? I haven't "zigzagged" anything. My comments have been very consistent.

 

[Dylan9d]

I find this whole thread to be quite messy.I quit reading it carefully.But some things are obvious. Hazardi is not Guy and his perspective
seems to be rooted in WSL wing chun
KPM continues his style of zigzagging through.

Haven't really seen anyone zigzagging and I have been following this from the start

 

[KPM]

Hazardi -- as the discussion progresses, I think it's becoming pretty clear that you aren't "Guy", and that unlike him, you are actually interested in exchanging information.

)

I think we have seen a shift in attitude since this thread began, so maybe Hazardi has been listening to our comments about "Guy-like" behavior. When Dirty Dog posted his comment I PM'd him and asked him to check into this for us. But he hasn't replied.

As I look back I will agree that I had some bias in my responses to Hazardi because he was sounding so much like Guy. Hazardi, I apologize for that!

 

[wckf92]

@Hazardi172 seems to post more info and detail than Guy I think...
Haven't seen Guy or LFJ lately so maybe they moved on or are under a temporary ban(?)

 

[Transk53]

For what's it worth, I too thought Guy had spoofed the MT joining system as it were. Apologies Hazardi.

 

[O'Malley]

Who cares if he's this "Guy" or not? If it's such an issue, an admin/mod can check out his IP.

What seems to be more of a problem is that if someone says "no in my lineage we don't need to consider this we do it differently" then is unable to convey a clear idea of why he makes such a claim it provides no basis for discussion.

And logic would require to dismiss that claim, as the burden of proof rests on the person who makes the claim.

My 1.5 cents.

 

[wtxs]

ow, you made a different point regarding the two videos on WC/VT punching that I hope you can clarify. I believe that you stated that the first video featuring Dwight Hammonds (?) was essentially the same or similar to what you train, while the second video was quite a bit different. Could you please point out the key differences that make the punching in the second video different from your VT?

Just MHO.

!st video - elbow pointed down, arm almost perpendicular to ground.

2nd video - elbow not quite pointed "down" with arm flared slightly out to the side.

 

[drop bear]

That is true for far too many Wing Chun schools. Not all. But a lot of them! Too many don't spar at all, or when they do spar it is against fellow students from their school also doing Wing Chun. Or a fellow Wing Chun student that will try and represent a boxer or a kicker and give the Wing Chun person a false sense of effectiveness because their fellow student isn't really very good at boxing or kicking!

The same issue is raised with sport jujitsu by the way.

 

[KPM]

Ok. I see. I've checked out the photo captures on a computer that will actually show them. You chose to break down the first video. I told you in post #421 that I was referring to the 2nd video because it was much smoother. In the first video he does take a small advance step and then does the kick. So, yeah. In this instance he made it a very quick 2 step kick. But the guy in the 2nd video was certainly doing a 1 step kick until he hit the 8 foot point where he put a little stutter in first. And there is no way the guy in the first video is doing a 3 or 4 step kick. From the time the front foot leaves the ground until it hits the ground again or strikes the target is one step. I said this before. When looking at gait biomechanics this is how it is done as well.....from one foot strike until the same foot strikes the ground again is one step. You can disagree with that all you want, but that is how gait analysis is done.

 

[KPM]

Just MHO.

!st video - elbow pointed down, arm almost perpendicular to ground.

2nd video - elbow not quite pointed "down" with arm flared slightly out to the side.

Hazardi also mentioned the rolling of the shoulders like a boxer, which the guy in the second video does do when punching to the kicking shield. But the difference between the two videos was that the puncher in the first video was actually concentrating on teaching good form and mechanics while the puncher in the second video was just trying to impress the interviewer with how much power he could generate and wasn't concerned with maintaining perfect technique. So it really isn't a very good comparison with which to criticize the guy in the second video. In a different circumstance his punch may very well look exactly like the puncher in the first video!

 

[KPM]

@Hazardi172 seems to post more info and detail than Guy I think...
Haven't seen Guy or LFJ lately so maybe they moved on or are under a temporary ban(?)

I'm not sure about LFJ, but I am pretty sure that Guy was fully banned....going by what Dirty Dog said earlier in this thread.