"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

Please see the relevant parts below:



Then



To which I replied "before feet move doesn't equal a static joint". Hope this makes it clear

Ah, so you're referring to loading through body movement prior to foot movement, then?

 

[Juany118]

The fact that this video looks OK to you (and me too) clears up exactly what I think is at the root of your disagreement with Juany and some others posting on this thread. I think it really boils down to a simple miscommunication revolving around whether you are talking about the distance covered by the entire punch from initiation to completion, or are talking about the distance you are from your target at the moment contact is made.

You seem to be saying that the punch can be initiated from any range, from near to far, since the punch and the body movement are united as one totality. So a punch from a long distance will be united with an long, explosive step, while a very close punch will involve a powerful, but very small body movement. But close or far, both are the same punch. So, as you have been saying all along, the VT punch isn't restricted by distance to a "sweet spot".

I get this. In fact I think we all do. Where the miscommunication comes in to play is when Juany and others are talking about the distance between the puncher's body and the target when contact is made. In all my experience, and in all the videos posted, there is plainly an ideal distance between puncher and target at the moment of impact. If you are too far away, or very much closer than this distance when your fist impacts your target, you will not achieve maximum transfer of power, and your punch will not be optimal.

I believe we can all agree on this too. And I think this is basically what Juany and KPM have been saying all along. Unfortunately, for much of this thread, you guys have been talking past each other, each insisting that the other understand their terms in a very particular way. This was what the poster "Guy" often did to disrupt threads. You know, WC/VT/WT is hard enough to discuss with words to begin with. Let's all work a little harder to be flexible in our use of terminology and actually communicate something meaningful!

Absolutely correct. I will admit to eventually getting frustrated and saying a bit of silliness because of it but the frustration was born of the fact that I was pretty explicit at one point that I was talking about the following.

1. The punch involves footwork.
2. When the punch hits there is an ideal distance that is determined, for each fighter, by the angle of the elbow. To acute or obtuse and you lose striking power.

I went so far as to eventually post photos showing how important angles are across the entire system.

At this point the only answer I can come up with as to why the debate still rages, and if people think I am wrong correct me, there seems to be a belief that the straight punch in WSLVT is unique among YM WC/VT Lineages. Perhaps if it hadn't been pointed out that, while there are differences, one of the things consistent across them is the straight punch the argument would not have persisted. I don't know. /Shrug.

 

[Juany118]

The video you posted of Philipp Bayer showed him doing some drills. Drills are drills, fighting is fighting. Don't see what relevance the range PB stands at during drilling has to punching in a fight, unles your aim is to initiate VT drills during fighting?

In the montage there were periods where PB is shown, advancing on a retreating partner, punching repeatedly. As he does so he makes sure his range to target, at the time of what would be impact, is consistent.

The video of Dwight Hemmings looks ok to me. Elbows could be in more but no big problem. I didn't notice him saying anything about elbow angle, are you sure you didn't get confused again about what you saw, like you did in the thread about JKD? Despite DH not mentioning in the clip, I would agree that keeping elbow down is very important in WSL VT, and not sure why you feel this is a point of contention?

It's in the period from 1:00 to 1:20 when he says "bent elbow still." You use the footwork, as with every WC/VT style I have any familiarity with to get from "disconnected to connected." When you become "connected" however the preloaded arm was only unloaded at the optimal time so that you have the proper arm extension so that the elbow is neither too bent nor too straight.

Most importantly in this clip, Hemmings shows some footwork integral to his punch which means that it can be delivered from any meaningful fighting range and is not reliant upon standing in some particular position relative to the opponent, which is just what I have been saying

the use of footwork to cover distance, and to add power to the punch, as the entire body is used with the punch, was never in dispute. The only contention that was ever made is that at the moment the fist connects to the target you can be too close, or too far.

 

[KPM]

Exactly, and I think I made this pretty clear. In fact I have stated it several times in as much detail as I can manage, but still a lot of questions and criticism comes. I don't think I could have been a lot clearer about what I meant here

---Uh. No. You have described a Wing Chun punch as all of us that have learned Wing Chun understand it. Nothing unique about it at all despite your claim that no one other than WSLVT does it that way. That is part of the contention here. And you haven't given good detail to really make that clear. So to some extent we were trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and get you to explain better what you meant. But if what you meant is what we see in that video from Dwight Hemming, then you don't have any special knowledge! Everyone steps with the Wing Chun punch. Everyone uses body momentum behind their Wing Chun punch. Everyone takes multiple steps to get into range where the punch will actually make contact. And I do believe in the past you even stated that you DON'T take more than one step with the punch! The rest of us have tried to explain that there is an optimal distance from the opponent at which a Wing Chun punch will land with the most effectiveness. This is the "sweet spot." This is there whether you are stepping from 5 feet away or stepping from 1 foot away. This is the thing that has been explicitly described to you multiple times but for some reason you just refuse to see it.




I couldn't really understand the issue with the disagreement, since while we wish to end up between min and max effective extension of arm at impact, this is both obvious and adds nothing in terms of insight, since we can punch (whole punch with footwork) from any effective fighting range

---But again, the impact of that punch happens at a certain distance regardless of where you start from. That has been described multiple times now. That distance where the punch lands most effectively is the "sweet spot." Range does matter. I don't think anyone has really disagreed with what you have said about the mechanics of the Wing Chun punch. It is you disagreeing with everyone that has tried to explain ranges and the "sweet spot" to you.



What I think happened is that people were initially talking about this "trapping range", but then changed their argument after realising the point I was making. I don't know why anyone would do this, but it appears to me to be what happened?

---Oh? What point were you making? The conversation only shifted when you denied the idea of different combat ranges or the fact that some ranges were more effective for Wing Chun than others.



I think the idea that I am "Guy" made certain people act in a more hostile way than normal, and probably prevented them from being able to agree with my fairly basic point about punching with footwork.

---No. It could be that you didn't make your point very well. Didn't answer questions at times. Provided no video to back up what you were saying, etc.

 

[wtxs]

I have never seen any other style punch the way as WSL VT

Are you referring to other style of martial art? Or other lineage of Wing Chun?

---Uh. No. You have described a Wing Chun punch as all of us that have learned Wing Chun understand it. Nothing unique about it at all despite your claim that no one other than WSLVT does it that way.

 

[Juany118]

---But again, the impact of that punch happens at a certain distance regardless of where you start from. That has been described multiple times now. That distance where the punch lands most effectively is the "sweet spot." Range does matter. I don't think anyone has really disagreed with what you have said about the mechanics of the Wing Chun punch. It is you disagreeing with everyone that has tried to explain ranges and the "sweet spot" to you.

I think there is another important reason for the importance of that "sweet spot" and if all you do is drills, forms and light sparring you miss something. There will come a point in a fight where you won't have the opportunity to step with your punch. Opponents can stand their ground and "take" a couple hits, especially if dealing with someone used to taking hits. They can circle instead of retreat. In either case the "sweet spot" is important to understand not just from the point of view of moving from being disconnected to connected, but in terms of maintaining the connect once established.

As DW said in that first video i posted, regarding your opponent, "...they move, they're flexible, they are going to bend and twist when you hit them. They aren't going to just stand there and say "you know what wing chun is great I am just going to stand here while you beat me up" This flexibility, if your opponent knows how to use it, means they don't have to give you the space to step after connection, they can circle, they can mount a very strong guard (I sometimes call this turtling, an old gamer term) they can use the close proximity to try and transition to grappling etc.

In that case you need to still be able to strike because "resetting" yourself by backing up, to do that picture perfect step as you punch technique we all learn, is simply not an option. As such you need to understand where that sweet spot is, that once the connection is made you still can act. Maybe you go to the blind side, but the range remains the same. Maybe you simply trap and keep striking. Maybe you low kick or bil, this usually gets them to step back. But you need to know that spot and how to use it otherwise you hit a wall.

 

[Hazardi172]

Are you referring to other style of martial art? Or other lineage of Wing Chun?

Other martial art. WSL VT is the only wing chun I have tried. I was told by people here to refer to WSL VT rather than VT or wing chun because they disagreed with what I was saying. I don't know if other wing chun is different or the same.

 

[Hazardi172]

Uh. No. You have described a Wing Chun punch as all of us that have learned Wing Chun understand it. Nothing unique about it at all despite your claim that no one other than WSLVT does it that way. That is part of the contention here. And you haven't given good detail to really make that clear. So to some extent we were trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and get you to explain better what you meant. But if what you meant is what we see in that video from Dwight Hemming, then you don't have any special knowledge! Everyone steps with the Wing Chun punch. Everyone uses body momentum behind their Wing Chun punch. Everyone takes multiple steps to get into range where the punch will actually make contact. And I do believe in the past you even stated that you DON'T take more than one step with the punch!

I have been referring to WSL VT because I was told by someone that I should be specific and not generalise . I think it was either you or Juany that told me to do this.

I don't think I have commented on other wing chun at all, apart from the clip of a guy punching which was in the same post as the Dwight Hemmings clip (and was different). I am not claiming to have special knowledge. If you all punch in the same way as I do then extremely difficult for me to understand the level of hostility I have experienced on this thread

But again, the impact of that punch happens at a certain distance regardless of where you start from. That has been described multiple times now. That distance where the punch lands most effectively is the "sweet spot." Range does matter. I don't think anyone has really disagreed with what you have said about the mechanics of the Wing Chun punch. It is you disagreeing with everyone that has tried to explain ranges and the "sweet spot" to you.

The idea of sweet spot formulated as you describe is fairly meaningless in terms of the discussion as it was when I made my first post. Here is the post I was responding to when I entered the discussion:

Oh I agree, to a point, I see a complication in Wing Chun. A lot of the striking, imo at least, is inside trapping range. Even though we have other techniques "further out" in the more typical striking ranges I have found that striking in trapping range can be effective against other styles because they simply aren't expecting it, it is often (not always) outside their comfort zone/experience.

In response I asked "what is trapping range". Here is the answer I got to my question:

The easiest way to explain it is to say between where you typically think of punching and when you start full on grappling.

This is just a link I found on the quick, and while only from a seminar of Gary Lam's, you are basically in a position where you can still strike, but close enough so that you can say control the opponent's arm to unbalance them, whether to open a way for you to strike, or to transition to takes downs etc. Hop to 1:00 to see what I mean by the range.

WC really doesn't define ranges the way some other MA do but I have found the term useful on occassion. Also I know other styles are capable of fighting at a similar range, just speaking to the importance in WC, in my experience.

So initially the conversation appears to have been about a range where we stand and fight in wing chun, one unfamiliar to other martial arts stylists, closer than punching distance and further than grappling distance, close enough to strike and control limbs to unbalance the opponent, and to initiate takedowns. It is a particular range we fight at, and some other styles do as well, and this range is important in wing chun

This is why I initially stated that WSL VT is not range limited in this way, does not involve standing at a particular range relative to the opponent, and is not characterised by grappling arms or "trapping" at a distance that other martial arts stylists do not expect. To demonstate this I used the fact that the (WSL) VT punch always involves footwork, and that punches can be initiated at any realistic fighting distance

I think that most of you realised immediately that I was right about this, but did not want to admit it in case I was the terrible "Guy" you all seem to fear so much. This is why I think the argument moved on to a rather pointless discussion about there being some kind of limitation upon the possible distance between 2 people at the point of punch impact- an argument that is both completely obvious and utterly trivial

Oh? What point were you making? The conversation only shifted when you denied the idea of different combat ranges or the fact that some ranges were more effective for Wing Chun than others.

Please see above. I stand by the argument that theory of ranges, as understood in JKD, is not required or relavant to WSL VT because punching can be initiated from any realistic fighting distance, kicks are slow and telegraphed compared to punching, and any advantage in limb length via kicking is removed due to step length limitation and slower speed

No. It could be that you didn't make your point very well. Didn't answer questions at times. Provided no video to back up what you were saying, etc.

I'm sorry, I didn't have a video. I answered every question I could but sometimes it felt like a bit of an onslaught with many people commenting from different martial arts and not much friendliness. In future if people can be a bit more accomodating (and stop making these weird accusations that I am some mystery Guy they don't like) then maybe it will be easier to converse and we will ab be able to get along

 

[Hazardi172]

There will come a point in a fight where you won't have the opportunity to step with your punch. Opponents can stand their ground and "take" a couple hits, especially if dealing with someone used to taking hits. They can circle instead of retreat. In either case the "sweet spot" is important to understand not just from the point of view of moving from being disconnected to connected, but in terms of maintaining the connect once established.

As DW said in that first video i posted, regarding your opponent, "...they move, they're flexible, they are going to bend and twist when you hit them. They aren't going to just stand there and say "you know what wing chun is great I am just going to stand here while you beat me up" This flexibility, if your opponent knows how to use it, means they don't have to give you the space to step after connection, they can circle, they can mount a very strong guard (I sometimes call this turtling, an old gamer term) they can use the close proximity to try and transition to grappling etc.

In that case you need to still be able to strike because "resetting" yourself by backing up, to do that picture perfect step as you punch technique we all learn, is simply not an option. As such you need to understand where that sweet spot is, that once the connection is made you still can act. Maybe you go to the blind side, but the range remains the same. Maybe you simply trap and keep striking. Maybe you low kick or bil, this usually gets them to step back. But you need to know that spot and how to use it otherwise you hit a wall.

I don't need to think about sweet spot at all! All I need to do is punch when close enough to punch (of course still with footwork, but different). We work the punch in so many ways that do not involve thinking at all that theorizing about where to stand seems just misconceived

 

[Juany118]

I have been referring to WSL VT because I was told by someone that I should be specific and not generalise . I think it was either you or Juany that told me to do this.

I don't think I have commented on other wing chun at all, apart from the clip of a guy punching which was in the same post as the Dwight Hemmings clip (and was different). I am not claiming to have special knowledge. If you all punch in the same way as I do then extremely difficult for me to understand the level of hostility I have experienced on this thread



The idea of sweet spot formulated as you describe is fairly meaningless in terms of the discussion as it was when I made my first post. Here is the post I was responding to when I entered the discussion:



In response I asked "what is trapping range". Here is the answer I got to my question:



So initially the conversation appears to have been about a range where we stand and fight in wing chun, one unfamiliar to other martial arts stylists, closer than punching distance and further than grappling distance, close enough to strike and control limbs to unbalance the opponent, and to initiate takedowns. It is a particular range we fight at, and some other styles do as well, and this range is important in wing chun

This is why I initially stated that WSL VT is not range limited in this way, does not involve standing at a particular range relative to the opponent, and is not characterised by grappling arms or "trapping" at a distance that other martial arts stylists do not expect. To demonstate this I used the fact that the (WSL) VT punch always involves footwork, and that punches can be initiated at any realistic fighting distance

I think that most of you realised immediately that I was right about this, but did not want to admit it in case I was the terrible "Guy" you all seem to fear so much. This is why I think the argument moved on to a rather pointless discussion about there being some kind of limitation upon the possible distance between 2 people at the point of punch impact- an argument that is both completely obvious and utterly trivial



Please see above. I stand by the argument that theory of ranges, as understood in JKD, is not required or relavant to WSL VT because punching can be initiated from any realistic fighting distance, kicks are slow and telegraphed compared to punching, and any advantage in limb length via kicking is removed due to step length limitation and slower speed



I'm sorry, I didn't have a video. I answered every question I could but sometimes it felt like a bit of an onslaught with many people commenting from different martial arts and not much friendliness. In future if people can be a bit more accomodating (and stop making these weird accusations that I am some mystery Guy they don't like) then maybe it will be easier to converse and we will ab be able to get along

All I was saying is that the WC punch has an optimal range when contact is made. Now admittedly I am a bit like a Mr. Spock and/or Data. So from there I make other connections. The point is the punch but some WC Lineages also "trap". If you can trap you can initiate locks and grapples as well and that we thus need to be concerned about those consequences. These come to my mind because my first Eastern TMA was Aikido and my next was Judo.

I am sorry if making these tertiary connections derailed things but ultimately the point I was making was that when our fist is actually hitting the target, not before, not after, there is an optimal place for us to be when we connect.

 

[Hazardi172]

there seems to be a belief that the straight punch in WSLVT is unique among YM WC/VT Lineages. Perhaps if it hadn't been pointed out that, while there are differences, one of the things consistent across them is the straight punch the argument would not have persisted. I don't know. /Shrug.

I don't think I ever said this?

However the two videos you posted showed significant differences in punching method. I don't know why you don't see it, maybe look again? I don't know what type of wing chun is shown in the second clip and don't want to say anything negative about it, but is certainly not the same as Dwight Hemming's punch

 

[Hazardi172]

All I was saying is that the WC punch has an optimal range when contact is made. Now admittedly I am a bit like a Mr. Spock and/or Data. So from there I make other connections. The point is the punch but some WC Lineages also "trap". If you can trap you can initiate locks and grapples as well and that we thus need to be concerned about those consequences. These come to my mind because my first Eastern TMA was Aikido and my next was Judo

In WSL VT we keep moving, don't stay in one place. Because the opponent also tends to move . No grappling in WSL VT.

I am sorry if making these tertiary connections derailed things but ultimately the point I was making was that when our fist is actually hitting the target, not before, not after, there is an optimal place for us to be when we connect.

I think there is a range of places for us to stand exactly at impact because the punch works from elbow close to elbow quite far out, as long as it stays down. I don't see a lot of value in analysing where the body needs to be for the punch to reach on impact because we practice it all of the time on wall bag and in other ways. Once you know the feeling, why think about it? Distance of the punch is via the footwork, not the length of the arm

 

[Juany118]

I don't need to think about sweet spot at all! All I need to do is punch when close enough to punch (of course still with footwork, but different). We work the punch in so many ways that do not involve thinking at all that theorizing about where to stand seems just misconceived

See with me it's not about theorizing. It is about applying real life experience. For 19 years this February (not all WC obviously) I will have been fighting people irl struggles on the street against everything from simply talented brawlers to people trained in different MA. What happens in the school is theory. Your instructor doing his or her best to have you train variations. However like the video I posted said... "they move, they're flexible, they are going to bend and twist when you hit them. They aren't going to just stand there and say "you know what wing chun is great I am just going to stand here while you beat me up." and that creates near infinite possibilities.

Usually I have ended up on top, though as I get older that becomes less certain. Sometimes I have ended up in hospital. The point being I don't talk about theory when I talk about being forced to hurt another human being. I talk experience. You opponent, believe it or not may not move, so if you move you must retreat, circle, or grapple. Your opponent may only circle and not backup/retreat. So you have the same three options. To assume you will still be able to step is fighting based on theory.

This is why I feel blessed with my current Sifu. He can barely hear in one ear because of the shotgun he redirected before it blew his head off serving a search warrant. He too knows what real fights on the street are like and trains us accordingly, within the limits of our WC.

 

[Hazardi172]

See with me it's not about theorizing. It is about applying real life experience. For 19 years this February (not all WC obviously) I will have been fighting people irl struggles on the street against everything from simply talented brawlers to people trained in different MA. What happens in the school is theory. Your instructor doing his or her best to have you train variations. However like the video I posted said... "they move, they're flexible, they are going to bend and twist when you hit them. They aren't going to just stand there and say "you know what wing chun is great I am just going to stand here while you beat me up." and that creates near infinite possibilities.

Usually I have ended up on top, though as I get older that becomes less certain. Sometimes I have ended up in hospital. The point being I don't talk about theory when I talk about being forced to hurt another human being. I talk experience.

Congratulations for your long service in the police, it must be a difficult job!

 

[Juany118]

Congratulations for your long service in the police, it must be a difficult job!

Actually it's only hard for those who see it as a job, but thank you. It will sound corny but I see it as a calling. I went from Highschool student considering the Priesthood (sorry liked girls too much), trained to be a teacher, was a soldier, then blue. To do any of them if it feels like a job, time to get out.

 

[KPM]

The idea of sweet spot formulated as you describe is fairly meaningless in terms of the discussion as it was when I made my first post.

---See, here is where you create a problem. It is not meaningless. We have been telling you what it means. You can choose not to use it in your understanding of Wing Chun. But that does not make it "meaningless." Its just like your denying that someone was able to cover 8 feet quickly with a kick and only one step despite my posting a video of it. Any hostility is simply frustration with the way you have been posting and failing to see or acknowledge points that people have gone to efforts to explain in pretty good detail. That has been pointed out to you several times as well. But you choose to ignore all of that. Conversation is a two-way street. You make points. But you acknowledge other people's points as well. Most people here feel like they have been banging their head against a wall trying to discuss this with you. That was a very frequent problem with Guy! But Guy would do this on purpose just to see how many people he could irritate. Is that your game as well?



So initially the conversation appears to have been about a range where we stand and fight in wing chun, one unfamiliar to other martial arts stylists, closer than punching distance and further than grappling distance,

---And again, that summary just proves you weren't really trying to understand what was being said, because that is not what was explained.




This is why I initially stated that WSL VT is not range limited in this way,

--And nobody said it was limited. What was described was simply the distance at which Wing Chun functions the best. You wouldn't remain at a distance of a leg's length away from the opponent and try to fight from there without closing in would you? A Tae Kwon Do guy would. That is kicking range. But that doesn't mean the TKD guy is limited to that range. It has already been explained that the various ranges indicate distance from the opponent and what kind of techniques can be used from that distance. You may not use this in your Wing Chun. But it is very useful to know when facing someone that doesn't do Wing Chun!



I think that most of you realised immediately that I was right about this, but did not want to admit it in case I was the terrible "Guy" you all seem to fear so much.

---Wow! Like Guy, you seem to lack a lot of personal insight!!!





kicks are slow and telegraphed compared to punching, and any advantage in limb length via kicking is removed due to step length limitation and slower speed

----Ok. You just keep right on believing that. But you may get a rude surprise if you ever actually try to spar with someone that is good at kicking!



I answered every question I could but sometimes it felt like a bit of an onslaught with many people commenting from different martial arts and not much friendliness. In future if people can be a bit more accomodating (and stop making these weird accusations that I am some mystery Guy they don't like) then maybe it will be easier to converse and we will ab be able to get along

---There is no race to immediately respond to every post. There is no reason why you can't take time to provide a detailed answer when a question is asked rather than just typing out a one-liner that really explains nothing. You have not answered every question asked of you. You ignored several. In the future, if you could actually try to understand and acknowledge what people are trying to explain to you rather than to continue to deny that they may know what they are talking about it might be easier to converse.

 

[Juany118]

The idea of sweet spot formulated as you describe is fairly meaningless in terms of the discussion as it was when I made my first post.

---See, here is where you create a problem. It is not meaningless. We have been telling you what it means. You can choose not to use it in your understanding of Wing Chun. But that does not make it "meaningless." Its just like your denying that someone was able to cover 8 feet quickly with a kick and only one step despite my posting a video of it. Any hostility is simply frustration with the way you have been posting and failing to see or acknowledge points that people have gone to efforts to explain in pretty good detail. That has been pointed out to you several times as well. But you choose to ignore all of that. Conversation is a two-way street. You make points. But you acknowledge other people's points as well. Most people here feel like they have been banging their head against a wall trying to discuss this with you. That was a very frequent problem with Guy! But Guy would do this on purpose just to see how many people he could irritate. Is that your game as well?



So initially the conversation appears to have been about a range where we stand and fight in wing chun, one unfamiliar to other martial arts stylists, closer than punching distance and further than grappling distance,

---And again, that summary just proves you weren't really trying to understand what was being said, because that is not what was explained.




This is why I initially stated that WSL VT is not range limited in this way,

--And nobody said it was limited. What was described was simply the distance at which Wing Chun functions the best. You wouldn't remain at a distance of a leg's length away from the opponent and try to fight from there without closing in would you? A Tae Kwon Do guy would. That is kicking range. But that doesn't mean the TKD guy is limited to that range. It has already been explained that the various ranges indicate distance from the opponent and what kind of techniques can be used from that distance. You may not use this in your Wing Chun. But it is very useful to know when facing someone that doesn't do Wing Chun!



I think that most of you realised immediately that I was right about this, but did not want to admit it in case I was the terrible "Guy" you all seem to fear so much.

---Wow! Like Guy, you seem to lack a lot of personal insight!!!





kicks are slow and telegraphed compared to punching, and any advantage in limb length via kicking is removed due to step length limitation and slower speed

----Ok. You just keep right on believing that. But you may get a rude surprise if you ever actually try to spar without someone that is good at kicking!



I answered every question I could but sometimes it felt like a bit of an onslaught with many people commenting from different martial arts and not much friendliness. In future if people can be a bit more accomodating (and stop making these weird accusations that I am some mystery Guy they don't like) then maybe it will be easier to converse and we will ab be able to get along

---There is no race to immediately respond to every post. There is no reason why you can't take time to provide a detailed answer when a question is asked rather than just typing out a one-liner that really explains nothing. You have not answered every question asked of you. You ignored several. In the future, if you could actually try to understand and acknowledge what people are trying to explain to you rather than to continue to deny that they may know what they are talking about it might be easier to converse.

Hell a WC guy can be good at kicking. If they get good at using the hands as a distraction, which is actually a WC technique I am taught.

My Sifu actually ocassionally makes jokes at me, more typically at the "unicorn" of our school. We both like kicks. I tend to keep low and let the guy guy know their instep, ankle of knee was just broken or use it to gain distance with the "Buffalo" of our school if I couldn't side step properly.

The "unicorn"? Remember the video I shared previously of Sifu Jerry in the unsanctioned "to KO" WC fight? That's what the "unicorn" may do as well. He can effectively go from what most see as WC, to "high kick" and back and that causes some people all sorts of bother. In that video you can actually see how in one sequence the high kicks totally threw the other guy off to the point that he was completely open to "typical" WC attacks.

 

[drop bear]

Hell a WC guy can be good at kicking. If they get good at using the hands as a distraction, which is actually a WC technique I am taught.

Anyone can be good at anything provided they understand the mechanics change when you move outside your own dynamics.

Or at least the emphasis on those mechanics.

 

[Juany118]

Anyone can be good at anything provided they understand the mechanics change when you move outside your own dynamics.

Or at least the emphasis on those mechanics.

Indeed, but some people get sucked into, for lack of a better term, the dogma of the their specific teacher. We all have personal strengths and weaknesses and it can be transferred from teacher to student. My Sifu makes fun of thus who kick, not because we kick, but because he afraid others will kick too much. I will PM you for the rest to avoid another senseless WC debate.

 

[Dylan9d]

Anyone can be good at anything provided they understand the mechanics change when you move outside your own dynamics.

Or at least the emphasis on those mechanics.

They call it improvising and I think that's what most martial artists are missing.