"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ah. Definitely not the same punch I was picturing. Do you happen to know of a video that's a good example of that as a punch?

I don't have a clip to use it for offense yet.

If you use it for

- offense, the circle can be big.
- defense, the circle can be small.

You can also use it to set up

- under hook,
- waist surrounding,
- bear hug,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- ...

It's a very important move in wrestling that you can "separate your opponent's arms" with 2 downward circles.

 

[DanT]

I was thinking of a video Dan Inosanto did where he said wing chun had "no outside game." He was talking about long-range stuff, of course. Over the last few months I thought about this statement, and it made me wonder: what style with long-range attacks would make a good hybrid with wing chun?

I don't see tae kwon do being one. In TAO OF JEET KUNE DO, Bruce Lee had some notes about savate, but I have never seen that style demonstrated so I can't say one way or the other. Lately I have been thinking that Muay Thai might be the best mix. It has long-range attacks, but it is also known as the "Art of 8 Limbs" because there are also elbow attacks. Plus Muay Thai fighters are also known for getting up close and personal by getting their opponents in "the clinch."

Anyway, it was just a thought I had about what long-range style would fit best with wing chun conceptually.

List of long range techniques:
-side kick
-front kick
-hook kick
-round house kick
-jab (body or head)
-cross
-chop
-backfist
-biu Sao (to bridge)
-man Sao (to bridge)
-Jong Sao (to bridge)

I've listed 11 techniques that can be applied from a distance, I'm sure there's many more. I do northern shaolin in addition to wing chun, but not because I need to "fill in any gaps in my wing chun", instead, I do it because I love Kung fu.

 

[Juany118]

Why don't you post a video illustrating this WSLVT punch that you keep talking about? That would really help everyone see what you mean.

I already showed one of Philipp Bayer himself where through the montage you see him constantly moving to a "sweet spot". That doesn't matter. We have the following as well, which I am sure will be dismissed he was the first Canadian and, to my knowledge, his school is still the only school in Canada that has "Recognized Organization Status" from the Wong Shun Leung Students Association BUT since Dwight Hemmings studied under Sifu Gary Lam and was awarded instructor status by DP, I am sure somehow he, or all three, will be accused of reinventing the punch. Why? Not only can you see him seek the same sweet spot as PB did in the earlier montage I posted, he actually comes right out and speaks about the importance of the elbow angle on impact, which in order to maintain, and not come up too short or shoot tool long, requires specific ranging... aka the sweet spot.

both videos are also very consistent with this one...

That one will be dismissed because he didn't study under WSL and the fact all three videos are consistent will be dismissed as well. Apparently PB stages his videos and everyone else reinvented the punch, in the exact same "wrong" way. In my experience the only thing consistent across all of YM WC, even if you debate whether or not TWC belongs there, is the mechanics of the punch. Footwork and proper ranging, so you can get proper extension and thus maximum energy tranfer to the target.

 

[Danny T]

That is fine but you are not exactly defeating the method by doing that as you are just going to ge punched in the face.

???
In answering the question as to what is inside or outside I stated:
"I refer 'outside' or 'inside' in relation to the opponent's guard. Not as a distance from the opponent."

I was then asked:
"What if your opponent just stands there with his hands drop next to his knee without any "guard?
Are you talking about "inside (front door) - between your opponent's arms)" and "outside (side door) - outside of his both arms"?

Hence my answer was to being inside or outside the opponent's guard whether it is up, lowered, or down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"I refer 'outside' or 'inside' in relation to the opponent's guard. Not as a distance from the opponent."

By using your definition, is this "inside (front door)"?

Is this outside (side door)?

 

[Juany118]

I was thinking of a video Dan Inosanto did where he said wing chun had "no outside game." He was talking about long-range stuff, of course. Over the last few months I thought about this statement, and it made me wonder: what style with long-range attacks would make a good hybrid with wing chun?

I don't see tae kwon do being one. In TAO OF JEET KUNE DO, Bruce Lee had some notes about savate, but I have never seen that style demonstrated so I can't say one way or the other. Lately I have been thinking that Muay Thai might be the best mix. It has long-range attacks, but it is also known as the "Art of 8 Limbs" because there are also elbow attacks. Plus Muay Thai fighters are also known for getting up close and personal by getting their opponents in "the clinch."

Anyway, it was just a thought I had about what long-range style would fit best with wing chun conceptually.

I briefly "back yard" trained in Savate in high school. I grew up in a 5000 square foot Victorian house. Next door was a similar house turned into apartments. A Frenchman lived there who was on the tail end of his graduate studies at a nearby University and he would practice in the back yard. He saw me practicing my fencing in the backyard and invited me one day to train.

It is similar to Kick-Boxing but with a view differences (in competition, street savate is apparently a different animal.) First Savate is much more heavily weighted towards kicks. I could punch you square three times in a row and it is only 1 point. It includes shin kicks and toe kicks. Savate started as street fighting and so took boots into account. They still do the toe kicks and between them and the shin kicks you needed to wear "authorized boots" in competition to prevent additional injury to your opponent (concealed or tapped lacing, no protruding heel or reinforced toe etc.) That is about where my knowledge ends. I finally "clicked" with my neighbor only 3 months before he returned to France.

Since it was only 3 months I usually don't put this on my Martial Arts resume'. But think about the fencer and track kid whose legs were stronger than most of those on the football team (tested in a track team vs football team leg press contest) but the upper body of the kid in the add in the back of comics getting sand kicked in his face at the beach.

A kicking focused art was intriguing. Plus, I forgot, the footwork at times is similar to fencing footwork because pre-competition Savate included cane fighting which was founded in fencing. Damn I need to look for Savate in my area... thanks, not like WC and Kali aren't enough

 

[Danny T]

By using your definition, is this "inside (front door)"?

Inside and outside? Yes.
Front door or side door as shown? Not so much
Can be side door and still be inside. 1/4 line to 90 degrees is side door for us. Being inside the 1/4 lines would be what you call front door.

 

[Juany118]

Nvm

 

[Hazardi172]

And this was largely my point, with the photos of WSL. How often in that other thread, when the WSL people we saying "you never punch above your head" did they also speak of the "triangle" the arm becomes when you punch. The photos I posted we simply to illustrate that (regardless of reason) those triangles are all over the form. These triangles are there to reduce the elasticity (in theory.) Both the bong and tan are based on forwarding energy. You don't swing them in front of you like a block, you slide them in front of you, like spreading peanut butter. The angle becomes important because the more support structures of the human body you bring into play the more firm (less elastic) the structure becomes.

So if your arm is in one position you use primarily muscle, another position primarily bone and tendon, a third position you recruit more generally from all three. Which is the stronger structure? To achieve that stronger structure you must be in the correct place in space in relation to the target.

You can see the same principle when a weight lifter does aclean and jerk. It is about explosive power BUT it is also about getting everything to line up right from the feet, through the legs, all the way up. The bones and tendons aren't lifting as they provide no strength on their own but without making sure all of them line up in a "sweet spot" arrangement the muscles can't support the weight either. The weight either doesn't rise high enough, or the lifter over balanced forward and the weight never hits the apex, or over balances backward after hitting the apex. How does it hit the apex and stay? Because he/she aligned the structures of the body in unison to minimize elasticity.

I am sorry, I don't think I have seen the other thread you are talking about. In the above however you seem to be talking about the punch as an arm motion only, which in WSL VT it is not

 

[Hazardi172]

I'm not sure which part of the body you're referring to here. There are at least 6 joints, plus the entire spine, between the base of the foot and the fist. Most have capsules of some sort that cannot be compressed to full-load by simple tension. There are some points where you can reduce the number of elastic points by "stacking bones" (putting the bones in perfect alignment), and that will help so long as you aren't going to bend that joint at any point during the movement (at which point you reintroduce the problem of elasticity). This isn't possible with hips, shoulders, elbows (during a punching motion). And it still doesn't overcome the elastic movement of all the mass that you're moving when you put bodyweight behind a punch.

Please see the relevant parts below:

Full loading is initiated before the feet move, which is aided by the way ground is contacted, path of force, and weight movement

Then

I'm not addressing the WSL VT punch - I'm addressing the mechanics of the human body. There are realities we have to acknowledge to get the most out of the machine we're working with. Without introducing excessive tension (including opposing tension, which kills speed and power), you can't fully load a static joint. The loading has to happen in a dynamic situation, so though the limb may not be moving, the muscles and other tissues are moving to load the joint, until it reaches a level of tension that exceeds what's holding it back, then it fires. But that firing is not like a rubber band - you still have to keep activating the muscles to continue to accelerate the limb, which can draw more on the elasticity of the joint tissues.

To which I replied "before feet move doesn't equal a static joint". Hope this makes it clear

 

[Hazardi172]

I already showed one of Philipp Bayer himself where through the montage you see him constantly moving to a "sweet spot". That doesn't matter. We have the following as well, which I am sure will be dismissed he was the first Canadian and, to my knowledge, his school is still the only school in Canada that has "Recognized Organization Status" from the Wong Shun Leung Students Association BUT since Dwight Hemmings studied under Sifu Gary Lam and was awarded instructor status by DP, I am sure somehow he, or all three, will be accused of reinventing the punch. Why? Not only can you see him seek the same sweet spot as PB did in the earlier montage I posted, he actually comes right out and speaks about the importance of the elbow angle on impact, which in order to maintain, and not come up too short or shoot tool long, requires specific ranging... aka the sweet spot.

The video you posted of Philipp Bayer showed him doing some drills. Drills are drills, fighting is fighting. Don't see what relevance the range PB stands at during drilling has to punching in a fight, unles your aim is to initiate VT drills during fighting?

The video of Dwight Hemmings looks ok to me. Elbows could be in more but no big problem. I didn't notice him saying anything about elbow angle, are you sure you didn't get confused again about what you saw, like you did in the thread about JKD? Despite DH not mentioning in the clip, I would agree that keeping elbow down is very important in WSL VT, and not sure why you feel this is a point of contention?

Most importantly in this clip, Hemmings shows some footwork integral to his punch which means that it can be delivered from any meaningful fighting range and is not reliant upon standing in some particular position relative to the opponent, which is just what I have been saying

both videos are also very consistent with this one...

That one will be dismissed because he didn't study under WSL and the fact all three videos are consistent will be dismissed as well. Apparently PB stages his videos and everyone else reinvented the punch, in the exact same "wrong" way. In my experience the only thing consistent across all of YM WC, even if you debate whether or not TWC belongs there, is the mechanics of the punch. Footwork and proper ranging, so you can get proper extension and thus maximum energy tranfer to the target.

Punching looks different in this clip. WSL VT style elbow control often lacking. Punch drawn back before throwing and hitting with upper body torque as a boxer. I wouldn't say it shares a lot with the Dwight Hemmings video

 

[KPM]

Why don't you post a video illustrating this WSLVT punch that you keep talking about? That would really help everyone see what you mean.

Hazardi.....why do you keep ignoring this request?

 

[Hazardi172]

Hazardi.....why do you keep ignoring this request?

I don't have one, sorry. The Dwight Hemmings video is ok for me though, as I mentioned above

 

[KPM]

I don't have one, sorry. The Dwight Hemmings video is ok for me though, as I mentioned above

Ok. So can you recap what you think is special about that punch that Hemmings is showing? Because it looks like a pretty standard Wing Chun punch to me, and you have said no other styles punch like WSLVT. And I'm still not seeing how this punch would be delivered from 5 feet or more away without taking more than one step. Thanks!

 

[geezer]

.... The Dwight Hemmings video is ok for me though, as I mentioned above

The fact that this video looks OK to you (and me too) clears up exactly what I think is at the root of your disagreement with Juany and some others posting on this thread. I think it really boils down to a simple miscommunication revolving around whether you are talking about the distance covered by the entire punch from initiation to completion, or are talking about the distance you are from your target at the moment contact is made.

You seem to be saying that the punch can be initiated from any range, from near to far, since the punch and the body movement are united as one totality. So a punch from a long distance will be united with an long, explosive step, while a very close punch will involve a powerful, but very small body movement. But close or far, both are the same punch. So, as you have been saying all along, the VT punch isn't restricted by distance to a "sweet spot".

I get this. In fact I think we all do. Where the miscommunication comes in to play is when Juany and others are talking about the distance between the puncher's body and the target when contact is made. In all my experience, and in all the videos posted, there is plainly an ideal distance between puncher and target at the moment of impact. If you are too far away, or very much closer than this distance when your fist impacts your target, you will not achieve maximum transfer of power, and your punch will not be optimal.

I believe we can all agree on this too. And I think this is basically what Juany and KPM have been saying all along. Unfortunately, for much of this thread, you guys have been talking past each other, each insisting that the other understand their terms in a very particular way. This was what the poster "Guy" often did to disrupt threads. You know, WC/VT/WT is hard enough to discuss with words to begin with. Let's all work a little harder to be flexible in our use of terminology and actually communicate something meaningful!

 

[Hazardi172]

Ok. So can you recap what you think is special about that punch that Hemmings is showing? Because it looks like a pretty standard Wing Chun punch to me, and you have said no other styles punch like WSLVT. And I'm still not seeing how this punch would be delivered from 5 feet or more away without taking more than one step. Thanks!

Take a large step!

It is possible to step much further punching than kicking because no need to kick standing on the landed leg, so can do something much closer to a shoot in with a punch than is possible with a kick.

 

[Hazardi172]

The fact that this video looks OK to you (and me too) clears up exactly what I think is at the root of your disagreement with Juany and some others posting on this thread. I think it really boils down to a simple miscommunication revolving around whether you are talking about the distance covered by the entire punch from initiation to completion, or are talking about the distance you are from your target at the moment contact is made.

You seem to be saying that the punch can be initiated from any range, from near to far, since the punch and the body movement are united as one totality. So a punch from a long distance will be united with an long, explosive step, while a very close punch will involve a powerful, but very small body movement. But close or far, both are the same punch. So, as you have been saying all along, the VT punch isn't restricted by distance to a "sweet spot"

Exactly, and I think I made this pretty clear. In fact I have stated it several times in as much detail as I can manage, but still a lot of questions and criticism comes. I don't think I could have been a lot clearer about what I meant here

I get this. In fact I think we all do.

Well that's good to hear, thanks

Where the miscommunication comes in to play is when Juany and others are talking about the distance between the puncher's body and the target when contact is made. In all my experience, and in all the videos posted, there is plainly an ideal distance between puncher and target at the moment of impact. If you are too far away, or very much closer than this distance when your fist impacts your target, you will not achieve maximum transfer of power, and your punch will not be optimal. I believe we can all agree on this too. And I think this is basically what Juany and KPM have been saying all along.

I couldn't really understand the issue with the disagreement, since while we wish to end up between min and max effective extension of arm at impact, this is both obvious and adds nothing in terms of insight, since we can punch (whole punch with footwork) from any effective fighting range

I also dismissed the above explanation since the discussion started by talking about a "trapping range" where we can stand which is the "sweet spot" for wing chun, where we can initiate punches, kicks, grappling, and drills like Lap Sau (for whatever reason!), and where (if we are not aware of grappling) we can be grappled...

What I think happened is that people were initially talking about this "trapping range", but then changed their argument after realising the point I was making. I don't know why anyone would do this, but it appears to me to be what happened?

Unfortunately, for much of this thread, you guys have been talking past each other, each insisting that the other understand their terms in a very particular way. This was what the poster "Guy" often did to disrupt threads. You know, WC/VT/WT is hard enough to discuss with words to begin with. Let's all work a little harder to be flexible in our use of terminology and actually communicate something meaningful!

I think the idea that I am "Guy" made certain people act in a more hostile way than normal, and probably prevented them from being able to agree with my fairly basic point about punching with footwork. I don't believe that I have been disruptive here, and to be honest I have been quite shocked at the amount of hostility against quite a straight forward point of view.

I can understand why people that think I am "Guy" might have done this. What I can't really understand is why people like yourself who don't think this didn't step in to end the witch hunt . I really have not experienced anything like this on a forum before

 

[KPM]

Take a large step!

It is possible to step much further punching than kicking because no need to kick standing on the landed leg, so can do something much closer to a shoot in with a punch than is possible with a kick.

You didn't answer my question. And I've already pointed out that you are very wrong in what you just said. I posted a video showing someone delivering an explosive side kick from 8 eight away with a single step. Can you launch your WSLVT punch from eight feet away with one step? Please post a video of someone doing that as I have posted a video of someone do that with a kick. Also please take note of what Geezer posted above about "actually communicating something meaningful." You did not at all answer what I asked on my last post. You are continuing to behave just like Guy despite people repeatedly pointing this out to you. Why is that?

 

[Hazardi172]

You didn't answer my question. And I've already pointed out that you are very wrong in what you just said. I posted a video showing someone delivering an explosive side kick from 8 eight away with a single step. Can you launch your WSLVT punch from eight feet away with one step? Please post a video of someone doing that as I have posted a video of someone do that with a kick.

The explanation for this is that they take more than one step. I think I already said this

In your last post you asked me to explain how a punch like this could be done from 5 feet away. The answer is to take a large step, as I said.

Also please take note of what Geezer posted above about "actually communicating something meaningful." You did not at all answer what I asked on my last post. You are continuing to behave just like Guy despite people repeatedly pointing this out to you. Why is that?

Not sure what you want here. The kicker takes more than 1 step, kicking is slower than punching, the step can be larger with punching. All of this means that no range advantage to kicking with a step or steps vs punching with a step or steps. This information is already typed out in more detail above if you have a look

I don't know how "Guy" communicates, so hard for me to live up to this idealised person. Please take me as I am

 

[wtxs]

Why don't you post a video illustrating this WSLVT punch that you keep talking about? That would really help everyone see what you mean.

Déjà vu