"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

.

Hazardi also mentioned the rolling of the shoulders like a boxer, which the guy in the second video does do when punching to the kicking shield. But the difference between the two videos was that the puncher in the first video was actually concentrating on teaching good form and mechanics while the puncher in the second video was just trying to impress the interviewer with how much power he could generate and wasn't concerned with maintaining perfect technique. So it really isn't a very good comparison with which to criticize the guy in the second video. In a different circumstance his punch may very well look exactly like the puncher in the first video!

Pretty much. If you look in the second video when he shows how to train the punch he is much "cleaner." In terms of form. Another point, I would argue, is that when punching the big bag at the range, and location he was, you will be forced to recruit different muscles to make contact with appreciable power. That is the thing with any fighting art imo. You have to keep the fundamental principles in mind while being capable of adapting to the circumstances of a dynamic situation. If in your head you say "I must punch this way" but the fight doesn't permit it and you start trying to force that perfect punch, you will find yourself in a spot of bother.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he was sounding so much like Guy.

I was waiting for Hazardi to say the following:

- Your WC is not pure.
- This is against our WC principle.
- My WC doesn't do this.
- Why do you keep comparing WC to other MA?
- It doesn't matter how long you may have trained WC, you still don't know WC.
- ...

So far, he hasn't.

 

[KPM]

Here is another point that was questioned and never really got answered. Hazardi said:

We don't step in and then punch

Which prompted my question of how WSLVT does a punch from 5 feet or more a way. I believe the only answer really given was ..."just punch!" So again, given the criticism leveled at the videos of the long range kick I posted, I would like Hazardi to explain how he does his WSLVT punch from an equal distance away with a single step without stepping in first.

Hazardi? Thanks!

 

[KPM]

I was thinking of a video Dan Inosanto did where he said wing chun had "no outside game." He was talking about long-range stuff, of course. Over the last few months I thought about this statement, and it made me wonder: what style with long-range attacks would make a good hybrid with wing chun?


Anyway, it was just a thought I had about what long-range style would fit best with wing chun conceptually.

Now, to get back to the OP somewhat....I don't think we really ever defined what an "outside game" is, and this has likely caused some confusion and "cross talk." To me, in this context, "outside" means that distance where you are going to have to take at least one step or more to get close enough for your punch to land, or you are just close enough to land an extended kick but the opponent is not close enough to land a punch.

I said this in the "Wing Chun & Jeet Kune Do" thread:

A real "outside game" allows you to stay and fight at the outside ranges if you so choose. Most Wing Chun kicks are designed to be delivered at closer range. A good outside game gives you options for controlling the distance and bridging the gap in various ways. If your primary strategy at long range is to stand and wait for the opponent to close with you, or to simply use a step-slide footwork to step into the opponent waiting to draw a response that you can then defend and work at close range....then this isn't really an "outside game." It is simply a way to transition to the "inside game". This is what I have seen from most Ip Man lineages. Heck, I have to admit that this is true of the Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun that I study as well.

From my experience with JKD, what is different is the extent of bridging used and the explicit "outside game" that is taught. JKD assumes that you are starting at long range, have to manage at long range, and then close in continue the fight. There is plenty of angular footwork to stay at long range if you choose, there are long range kicks if you choose to use them, and there are very specific ways to "close the gap" that Wing Chun simply does not have. Too often Wing Chun seems to assume you will stand in your ready stance and just wait for the opponent to attack and come into close range. TWC is the exception to this because TWC does have more footwork and bridging at long range than other Wing Chun. And I think that is by design....William Cheung put it there. TWC has even been referred to at times as "long bridge" Wing Chun.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now, to get back to the OP somewhat....I don't think we really ever defined what an "outside game" is, and this has likely caused some confusion and "cross talk." To me, in this context, "outside" means that distance where you are going to have to take at least one step or more to get close enough for your punch to land, or you are just close enough to land an extended kick but the opponent is not close enough to land a punch.

I said this in the "Wing Chun & Jeet Kune Do" thread:

A real "outside game" allows you to stay and fight at the outside ranges if you so choose. Most Wing Chun kicks are designed to be delivered at closer range. A good outside game gives you options for controlling the distance and bridging the gap in various ways. If your primary strategy at long range is to stand and wait for the opponent to close with you, or to simply use a step-slide footwork to step into the opponent waiting to draw a response that you can then defend and work at close range....then this isn't really an "outside game." It is simply a way to transition to the "inside game". This is what I have seen from most Ip Man lineages. Heck, I have to admit that this is true of the Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun that I study as well.

I agree with that definition, except that I'd add that any step to a punch has to be small, or you're already "outside". An extreme step to get in is actually a n entry movement, not an outside attack.

And the observation of a weak outside game is familiar. Arts that look to excel inside don't spend much time training distance (most WC, BJJ, NGA, Judo). Most of these have methods for getting inside to do what we do. If we don't work on having some outside moves, though, we end up with a quandary. In every style I know of, one part of the strategy is to not play the other person's game unless you are much better at it. So what do you do if you have someone who is your equal or better inside? Or what if they have good defenses against those entry moves. Having a valid (even if small) arsenal from a distance gives two new options: play the outside game if they are weak at it, or use the outside game to draw them into giving an openin for the inside game.

 

[Juany118]

I agree with that definition, except that I'd add that any step to a punch has to be small, or you're already "outside". An extreme step to get in is actually a n entry movement, not an outside attack.

And the observation of a weak outside game is familiar. Arts that look to excel inside don't spend much time training distance (most WC, BJJ, NGA, Judo). Most of these have methods for getting inside to do what we do. If we don't work on having some outside moves, though, we end up with a quandary. In every style I know of, one part of the strategy is to not play the other person's game unless you are much better at it. So what do you do if you have someone who is your equal or better inside? Or what if they have good defenses against those entry moves. Having a valid (even if small) arsenal from a distance gives two new options: play the outside game if they are weak at it, or use the outside game to draw them into giving an openin for the inside game.

Also for @KPM , one of the things I will admit that I noticed is that TWC feels like it has more stepping than others I have taken. As was said by another in the footwork thread, I shuffle but largely when I am putting on the brakes so to speak. Also when others may "simply" pivot, for say a defense, we may perform a release step after a pivot or out right "t" step as part of our reorientation.

 

[wingchun100]

Now, to get back to the OP somewhat....I don't think we really ever defined what an "outside game" is, and this has likely caused some confusion and "cross talk." To me, in this context, "outside" means that distance where you are going to have to take at least one step or more to get close enough for your punch to land, or you are just close enough to land an extended kick but the opponent is not close enough to land a punch.

I said this in the "Wing Chun & Jeet Kune Do" thread:

A real "outside game" allows you to stay and fight at the outside ranges if you so choose. Most Wing Chun kicks are designed to be delivered at closer range. A good outside game gives you options for controlling the distance and bridging the gap in various ways. If your primary strategy at long range is to stand and wait for the opponent to close with you, or to simply use a step-slide footwork to step into the opponent waiting to draw a response that you can then defend and work at close range....then this isn't really an "outside game." It is simply a way to transition to the "inside game". This is what I have seen from most Ip Man lineages. Heck, I have to admit that this is true of the Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun that I study as well.

From my experience with JKD, what is different is the extent of bridging used and the explicit "outside game" that is taught. JKD assumes that you are starting at long range, have to manage at long range, and then close in continue the fight. There is plenty of angular footwork to stay at long range if you choose, there are long range kicks if you choose to use them, and there are very specific ways to "close the gap" that Wing Chun simply does not have. Too often Wing Chun seems to assume you will stand in your ready stance and just wait for the opponent to attack and come into close range. TWC is the exception to this because TWC does have more footwork and bridging at long range than other Wing Chun. And I think that is by design....William Cheung put it there. TWC has even been referred to at times as "long bridge" Wing Chun.

I like that definition as well.

William Cheung is the only person that I have seen do kicks during Biu Jee.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Which prompted my question of how WSLVT does a punch from 5 feet or more a way.

If you need to move in 2 steps to punch, you can hide your 1st step in another move (such a a foot sweep, or low roundhouse kick). You then execute your punch in your 2nd step.

 

[wingchun100]

Well, I am glad for this thread. It is the first long thread I have started that didn't wind up getting taken down due to attention wandering, atlhough there were moments when it came close.

Anyway, I think our "outside" game consists of getting to our "inside" game. There are a couple long bridge techniques (albeit using only the arms) in Sil Lum Tao. Then there are kicks and stepping in Chum Kiu. Last but not least there are a ton of long bridge techniques in Biu Jee and the pole form.

Granted, it takes a while to get to BJ and the pole, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[LFJ]

Which prompted my question of how WSLVT does a punch from 5 feet or more a way.

» What I Have Learnt Through “Beimo” Ving Tsun Combat Science

2. GIVING THE ENEMY THE OPPORTUNITY TO STRIKE FIRST
To win or lose a fight often depends on who watches for his chance to attack the enemy first when both sides are fighting. As Sun Zi said, “When an invading force crosses a river in its onward march, it is best to let half the army get across, and then deliver your attack.” You will reap twice the result with half the effort if the attack is launched with such favourable timing as the opponent’s intention, developments and movements can all be readily determined. Should this strategy be applied, the opponent will find it especially difficult to co-ordinate his body, making advance or retreat virtually impossible and the loss of the fight by him inevitable. A common error made by inexperienced Wing Chun practitioners is to throw their punches from too far away, leaving a lot of distance between their opponent and themselves. As one can see from the pictures fig.7, fig.8 and fig.9, such a clumsy and rash move gives the enemy the opportunity to attack first.

Therefore, when engaged in combat with an opponent, never be impatient. Do not launch an attack until there’s a distance of one step between you and your enemy, then launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared. Launching a sudden attack in this way, one gains the advantage of an extra step towards the enemy, making it extremely difficult for him to react in time, the result normally being a feeble attempt to move half a step to the right or left, or else retreat straight backwards. This makes it very easy to remain in contact with the enemy, maintaining control of the situation by affecting the enemy’s balance and positioning. You therefore avoid giving him the chance to attack first and take away his opportunity to manage the situation.

 

[KPM]

Just a note for those of you that have followed this thread through-out. On Monday Dirty Dog took notice that we suspected Guy and Hazardi were the same person. On that day I PM'd him and asked him to check into it for us. He won't say one way or the other the result of his investigation.....but Hazardi has now not made an appearance here since Wednesday. So, if he is just away from his computer and shows up here later we were wrong. But right now it sure is looking as if we were right!

 

[T_Ray]

...

 

[Hazardi172]

Hazardi -- as the discussion progresses, I think it's becoming pretty clear that you aren't "Guy", and that unlike him, you are actually interested in exchanging information

Now regarding the whole "sweet-spot" thing. I personally think range is a very important consideration in fighting, but if that mental construct isn't used in WSL-VT, that's fine with me. And it's no reflection on who's correct. WSL and some of his more accomplished students have proved that his system is effective. Different people look at things differently, and still get good results. So I thank you for your input.

Thanks! Glad for your support. Yes all I want to do is represent the WSL VT way of doing things, not interested in challenging anyone else

Now, you made a different point regarding the two videos on WC/VT punching that I hope you can clarify. I believe that you stated that the first video featuring Dwight Hammonds (?) was essentially the same or similar to what you train, while the second video was quite a bit different. Could you please point out the key differences that make the punching in the second video different from your VT?

(Note the Vulcan above: I'm trying to be logical here and look at the facts! )

The second video looks very powerful, is just not showing the punch with step using momentum that the Hemmings video shows, which is what I was talking about in this thread . It looks like he is using some upper body torque for power, probably because he is standing close to the target.

 

[Hazardi172]

I find this whole thread to be quite messy.I quit reading it carefully.But some things are obvious. Hazardi is not Guy and his perspective
seems to be rooted in WSL wing chun

Thanks! Yes WSL VT is my experience

 

[Hazardi172]

I think we have seen a shift in attitude since this thread began, so maybe Hazardi has been listening to our comments about "Guy-like" behavior. When Dirty Dog posted his comment I PM'd him and asked him to check into this for us. But he hasn't replied.

As I look back I will agree that I had some bias in my responses to Hazardi because he was sounding so much like Guy. Hazardi, I apologize for that!

Thanks KPM, lets put this argument behind us. It is easy to get caught up in these things and I am sure I have been a bit biased as well

 

[Hazardi172]

For what's it worth, I too thought Guy had spoofed the MT joining system as it were. Apologies Hazardi.

Thanks Transk53!

 

[Hazardi172]

Another point, I would argue, is that when punching the big bag at the range, and location he was, you will be forced to recruit different muscles to make contact with appreciable power. That is the thing with any fighting art imo. You have to keep the fundamental principles in mind while being capable of adapting to the circumstances of a dynamic situation. If in your head you say "I must punch this way" but the fight doesn't permit it and you start trying to force that perfect punch, you will find yourself in a spot of bother.

I think possible to punch at close range using the same muscles. Think of the Lap Sau drill mentioned earlier in the thread for instance- what is it teaching you to do?

 

[KPM]

Thanks KPM, lets put this argument behind us. It is easy to get caught up in these things and I am sure I have been a bit biased as well

Ah! Hazardi! Welcome back! This confirms for everyone that you are indeed NOT Guy B. Again my apologies for assuming you were! Looking forward to future discussions! I do believe that WSLVT is an excellent system and hope to learn more about its approach as we touch on various topics here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think possible to punch at close range using the same muscles. Think of the Lap Sau drill mentioned earlier in the thread for instance- what is it teaching you to do?

Could you find a video (or pair of them) showing the same punch from both ranges? I'd like to see the mechanics in that.

 

[wingchun100]

Just a note for those of you that have followed this thread through-out. On Monday Dirty Dog took notice that we suspected Guy and Hazardi were the same person. On that day I PM'd him and asked him to check into it for us. He won't say one way or the other the result of his investigation.....but Hazardi has now not made an appearance here since Wednesday. So, if he is just away from his computer and shows up here later we were wrong. But right now it sure is looking as if we were right!

He also said to stay on topic and not call out if we suspect one new member is a former banned member, hence why I have paid no mind. LOL