"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Hazardi172]

For any particular punch, whether it be on a straight line or an arch there is a spot where your footwork and body mechanics allow for optimal mass to be applied behind the punch and for the optimal extension of said striking limb for optimal acceleration. That place is "the sweet spot."

There is no sweet spot in the WSL VT punch. Starting speed is emphasised so that we are travelling at a maximal velocity milliseconds from movement initiation and well before any strike impacts. The momentum of the moving body is imparted into the target via the fist without upper body involvement. It is the same movement you practice in pole form at a distance

Rather than being an acceleration curve with a peak as you would see with something like a boxer's punch, where there certainly is a "sweet spot", WSL VT strike is more like cueing a pool ball with instantaneous initiation then momentum carried over the whole strike path regardless of where it hits

At closer range path is different but same idea

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic. If you think a poster is someone evading a ban, report them and let the staff deal with it. Do not derail the thread.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator

 

[Hazardi172]

That could well be part of the issue (your last point.) That said I spar with people who study different arts and when you do that you see how simply trying to minimize the weakness of a single system and make what is work for you is dangerous.

I think the problem here is that others see outside fighting as a weak point of wing chun. In WSL VT we do not see things this way

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no sweet spot in the WSL VT punch. Starting speed is emphasised so that we are travelling at a maximal velocity milliseconds from movement initiation and well before any strike impacts. The momentum of the moving body is imparted into the target via the fist without upper body involvement. It is the same movement you practice in pole form at a distance

Rather than being an acceleration curve with a peak as you would see with something like a boxer's punch, where there certainly is a "sweet spot", WSL VT strike is more like cueing a pool ball with instantaneous initiation then momentum carried over the whole strike path regardless of where it hits

At closer range path is different but same idea

Actually, a pool ball does not have the same momentum throughout. If the energy is imparted entirely at the beginning of movement (as with a pool ball), then velocity starts to drop off immediately and continues to do so (on a negative acceleration curve if friction is involved). And the human body doesn't accelerate like a cue ball. There's far more elasticity and mobility (slack) in the human body than in a cue ball, so there is, in fact, an acceleration curve. The more mass there is, the more gradual the curve. Thus, an arm-only punch is the closest we can get to instantaneous velocity. When we add the body mass, we have a much more gradual curve.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the problem here is that others see outside fighting as a weak point of wing chun. In WSL VT we do not see things this way

I think perhaps the problem is nobody has actually defined "outside". What you think of as the outside game may not be the same as others are thinking of. What I'd call the outside game for NGA is not the same things someone from TKD would think of as "outside".

And it's worth pointing out that the OP actually stated that this is more of a thought experiment. He used someone's quote and said, "If we assume this is true..." Thus, it doesn't matter if any of us think there's a weakness in the outside game for any type of WC or not, if we are following the original topic.

 

[Hazardi172]

Actually, a pool ball does not have the same momentum throughout. If the energy is imparted entirely at the beginning of movement (as with a pool ball), then velocity starts to drop off immediately and continues to do so (on a negative acceleration curve if friction is involved).

Of course , but pool ball momentum remains relativeley constant, as does the momentum of the body in the WSL VT punch compared to other kinds of punch.

And the human body doesn't accelerate like a cue ball. There's far more elasticity and mobility (slack) in the human body than in a cue ball, so there is, in fact, an acceleration curve. The more mass there is, the more gradual the curve. Thus, an arm-only punch is the closest we can get to instantaneous velocity. When we add the body mass, we have a much more gradual curve.

In WSL VT the aim is to make the body accelerate like a cue ball. Training the pole form is the main way of doing this!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course , but pool ball momentum remains relativeley constant, as does the momentum of the body in the WSL VT punch compared to other kinds of punch.

Actually, that's the point. It doesn't. There's a huge range of application to a pool ball strike. But the power drops off dramatically after a point, so there is a sweet spot in a pool ball's travel. Where it is depends upon the amount of power you want to transfer to another ball. With striking, that answer is rarely "just a soft touch", so the sweet spot in the momentum of a strike is more limited than that of a pool ball.

In WSL VT the aim is to make the body accelerate like a cue ball. Training the pole form is the main way of doing this!

Technique can shorten the curve, but it always remains a curve. Every style I am familiar with has principles and techniques for minimizing the curve, and some are more focused on that goal than others. But the human body's joints have too much play in them for that to ever really resemble the acceleration of a pool ball struck by the cue (or another pool ball). There are too many parts of they physics that work against us in that pursuit. There's too much mass (for the amount of muscle available) to allow for instantaneous acceleration. There are too many parts, joined together by flexible joints, which absorb some of the power and delay power transfer. Our muscles, themselves, are elastic and delay the transfer of power.

 

[drop bear]

In terms of other punches WC telegraph's less but it still does. The trick is this. In general self defense and Combatives they tell you to watch the shoulders and hips. In my WC they tell us to watch elbows and knees. There is still less telegraphing there even then but it's still there, at least in my experience.

As an example, footwork is very important to the punch. Even before I see tell tale movement at the elbow, in watching the knees you can usually see movement there that indicates the footwork portion. In my experience when people think of telegraphing they hop immediately to picturing Western Boxing. There it's the head and shoulders that usually tell the tale. Other portions of the body however can give indications as well though.

This isnt the best explaination of how the footwork works. But you can see hand then foot.

 

[Transk53]

It is true, WSL VT punching is very hard to predict. Where do you live, maybe can suggest someone you could train with to try it out?

As I said in a previous post, already have.

 

[wingchun100]

I think perhaps the problem is nobody has actually defined "outside". What you think of as the outside game may not be the same as others are thinking of. What I'd call the outside game for NGA is not the same things someone from TKD would think of as "outside".

And it's worth pointing out that the OP actually stated that this is more of a thought experiment. He used someone's quote and said, "If we assume this is true..." Thus, it doesn't matter if any of us think there's a weakness in the outside game for any type of WC or not, if we are following the original topic.

"Outside game" to me could mean being outside the range your particular style favors. Therefore, for a TKD person, "outside" their game would be if they were in grappling range. But with the way Guro Inosanto used it, I think he meant "outside" meaning kicking range.

 

[wingchun100]

In other words...like GP Seymour said, "outside game" can mean different things to different people.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Outside game" to me could mean being outside the range your particular style favors. Therefore, for a TKD person, "outside" their game would be if they were in grappling range. But with the way Guro Inosanto used it, I think he meant "outside" meaning kicking range.

I'd favor Inosanto's definition. We could break distances into three basic ranges: inside range (where short strikes, grappling, etc. lives), intermediate range (where longer punches, short-ish kicks, and some locks live), and outside range (where extreme punches, longish kicks, etc. live). Beyond the outside range is a range that's not much used, except with weapons and flying/jumping attacks - let's call that "extreme range". In the extreme range, most styles will have footwork that's used to get back to whatever range is next for them, rather than any actual tools to be used at that range.

 

[Juany118]

This isnt the best explaination of how the footwork works. But you can see hand then foot.

Oh that gave me flashbacks (my first martial arts were foil and saber fencing). The difference there however is that the energy for the thrust comes from the lunge. Due to the range and the nature of the sword, two things typically happen.

1. the sword must be extended first.
2. its happening in a straight line.

Punching in anything is a different because it has the option to be more dynamic due to the difference between a punch and a sword thrust al la a saber. Lets actually just use boxing and not WC.

You can actually not only see the angles of the lead knee and foot lining up but hear the instructor talking about the "cue" when to punch. You can often see, if only a split second before, the foundation of a "solid" punch being established before the arm launches it, at least in my experience.

 

[Juany118]

Technique can shorten the curve, but it always remains a curve. Every style I am familiar with has principles and techniques for minimizing the curve, and some are more focused on that goal than others. But the human body's joints have too much play in them for that to ever really resemble the acceleration of a pool ball struck by the cue (or another pool ball). There are too many parts of they physics that work against us in that pursuit. There's too much mass (for the amount of muscle available) to allow for instantaneous acceleration. There are too many parts, joined together by flexible joints, which absorb some of the power and delay power transfer. Our muscles, themselves, are elastic and delay the transfer of power.

This is especially true in a dynamic fight. As an example...you can have close to a cue ball acceleration with Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch BUT he wasn't stepping into the target, he was planted and in essence lunging like one would thrusting a rapier (and with a stance much more similar to a fencer than WC allowing for maximum "thrust"). The "target" was equally static. Either a board being held that broke or a person or fell over when facing square. The one time the person was braced they didn't fall and Bruce had a rage fit according to witnesses.

In a real fight you have two subjects moving dynamically with tactics and strategy in mind. Then you have the elasticity of the one throwing the punch facing the elasticity of what is being punched. On the other hand a pool stick is rigid, the cue ball (until struck) is rigid and static, the 8 ball (until struck) is equally rigid and static.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is true, WSL VT punching is very hard to predict.

Still like to see a clip for that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think perhaps the problem is nobody has actually defined "outside".

To me, "outside game" include:

- body rotate,
- body lean,
- ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me, "outside game" include:

- body rotate,
- body lean,
- ...

Yes, that punch fits where I'd consider "outside range", considering where it apparently started from. The "intermediate range" would be marked by where Ali's shoulder is at that point of impact. The "inside range" would be about where Ali's elbow is. I left out the "kissing range" I teach with my students, which is where you're close enough to snuggle up to the attacker (geez, I sound pretty creepy when I teach), and is the opposite end of the spectrum to the "extreme range" I mentioned earlier.

 

[Juany118]

Technique can shorten the curve, but it always remains a curve. Every style I am familiar with has principles and techniques for minimizing the curve, and some are more focused on that goal than others. But the human body's joints have too much play in them for that to ever really resemble the acceleration of a pool ball struck by the cue (or another pool ball). There are too many parts of they physics that work against us in that pursuit. There's too much mass (for the amount of muscle available) to allow for instantaneous acceleration. There are too many parts, joined together by flexible joints, which absorb some of the power and delay power transfer. Our muscles, themselves, are elastic and delay the transfer of power.

Something else I just thought of, regarding your own elasticity, an example of which is actually part of WC/VT. I'll start with defensive techniques to illustrate. You have tan sau (what the right arm is doing)

and bong sau (again his right arm)

What allows these structures to deflect a strike and not collapse is the angle at the elbow. At this angle the bones and tendons take up a lot of the load and so the structure is strong and thus more energy can be deflected and/or absorbed. If they were at 90 degrees it would basically be all muscle, thus the structure is much more apt to collapse and/or you lose your center/balance.

Now look at the punch.

Same principle. The closer the angle gets to 90 degrees the more likely you are to have energy feed back into the arm, collapsing the structure causing deceleration and less force being transmitted. Too straight and you end up having something similar for two reasons. 1. the muscles again are doing a lot of the work keeping the arm "straight" thus a greater likelyhood of recoil in the arm itself. 2. if the arm doesn't recoil at the elbow energy gets transfered into the shoulder creating rotational force, again sending energy in the wrong direction.

How do you keep the proper angle of the elbow? Being in the "right spot". Aka the "sweet spot." All of this before you add the elasticity of the opponent into the equation.

 

[Hazardi172]

Actually, that's the point. It doesn't. There's a huge range of application to a pool ball strike. But the power drops off dramatically after a point, so there is a sweet spot in a pool ball's travel. Where it is depends upon the amount of power you want to transfer to another ball. With striking, that answer is rarely "just a soft touch", so the sweet spot in the momentum of a strike is more limited than that of a pool ball.

Actually you can hit a pool ball such that no sliding frictional force develops, and the ball rolls for a long time with very little momentum loss, certainly negigible loss over the path of a pool shot. Ironically that pot is termed the "sweet spot"

Technique can shorten the curve, but it always remains a curve.

In WSL VT, there is no curve because we are loading the joints before motion, accelerating mass before motion, then moving weight in a way where frictional losses are negligable over the path of the strike. In effect, once in motion, the velocity of the body remains stable and we hit with constant momentum, which of course depends more on mass at slow speeds anyway

Every style I am familiar with has principles and techniques for minimizing the curve, and some are more focused on that goal than others. But the human body's joints have too much play in them for that to ever really resemble the acceleration of a pool ball struck by the cue (or another pool ball). There are too many parts of they physics that work against us in that pursuit. There's too much mass (for the amount of muscle available) to allow for instantaneous acceleration. There are too many parts, joined together by flexible joints, which absorb some of the power and delay power transfer. Our muscles, themselves, are elastic and delay the transfer of power.

I would say that western boxing does the opposite in that it seeks to provide a path with a distinct peak where impact is meant to be. If you have not seen styles that manage to make this idea work then I can only suggest you try WSL VT! Have you reached the pole form yet in your own wing chun?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually you can hit a pool ball such that no sliding frictional force develops, and the ball rolls for a long time with very little momentum loss, certainly negigible loss over the path of a pool shot. Ironically that pot is termed the "sweet spot"

There's still rolling friction, which felt provides a reasonable amount of. Using a bit of top "English" reduces the sliding friction, and can even introduce a bit of positive friction (forward spin). And the loss is relatively negligible for the first portion of the ball's path. The slower the ball gets, the more the rolling friction interferes (less momentum to overcome the frictional resistance). That has little to do with punching, but it's interesting to discuss.

In WSL VT, there is no curve because we are loading the joints before motion, accelerating mass before motion, then moving weight in a way where frictional losses are negligable over the path of the strike. In effect, once in motion, the velocity of the body remains stable and we hit with constant momentum, which of course depends more on mass at slow speeds anyway

That's what many styles do to reduce the delay introduced by the elasticity of the joints and muscles. It cannot be entirely overcome, because the elastic length of those tissues depends upon the force (strain) placed upon them. Pre-loading can only place partial strain on them. Full strain can only be introduced when the full force is introduced when actually initiating the movement.

I would say that western boxing does the opposite in that it seeks to provide a path with a distinct peak where impact is meant to be. If you have not seen styles that manage to make this idea work then I can only suggest you try WSL VT! Have you reached the pole form yet in your own wing chun?

That's a reasonable statement - some strikes are designed to deliver force over a narrower range, while others are designed to deliver over a larger range.

I don't train in Wing Chun. My interest in the WC forums here is academic, as I learn a lot from the principles and practices of arts besides my own.