LDS Church and Racism

[newGuy12]

By the way, for no reason whatsoever, the SBC considers my religion a cult.

Try not to take it personally. I grew up in the SBC, and from what I gather, EVERYONE who is NOT in the SBC is in some kind of cult. Southern Baptists are pretty "cock-sure" that they have a really good idea of what the Truth is, and that anyone who differs from them are missing the point.

I myself used to think that, yes, our doctrine (in the Southern Baptists) must be the Ultimate Understanding of the Truth, and that NO OTHER organization would never understand as well as we do.

This is much the same way as say, the Student of TKD may think, "I feel pity for the Hung-Ga Student, because they do not enjoy such lovely practice as I enjoy." (You can insert any kind of practice in either blank there -- you get the point -- each person wishes to follow what they consider to the very best path -- and sometimes they feel big-headed and egotistical, thinking, "yes, I now surely understand this better than anyone else ever possibly could.") -- to do this is human, perhaps.

 

[DustinJolley]

What do you mean stop helping, Ray?

 

[Ray]

What do you mean stop helping, Ray?

your arguements are particularly weak.

 

[DustinJolley]

How are my opinions weak? It is a well known fact that the SBC has a history of racism and religious bigotry. For instance, former President Jimmy Carter, a SBC member is an anti-Semite. Pat Robertson, the host of The 700 Club, a SBC member hates Mormons, Presbytarians, all Muslims, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and anbody that's not a Baptist. And let's not forget that in the early years of the 20th century starting with about 1915, there were many Baptists and Methodists in the Ku Klux Klan. The Klan hates blacks, Asians, Jews, gays, Mormons, Muslims, Hispanics, communists, unions, immigrants both legal and illegal, Catholics, people with disabilities and anybody that they don't consider white or isn't Protestant.

 

[Ray]

How are my opinions weak? It is a well known fact that the SBC has a history of racism and religious bigotry. For instance, former President Jimmy Carter, a SBC member is an anti-Semite. Pat Robertson, the host of The 700 Club, a SBC member hates Mormons, Presbytarians, all Muslims, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and anbody that's not a Baptist. And let's not forget that in the early years of the 20th century starting with about 1915, there were many Baptists and Methodists in the Ku Klux Klan. The Klan hates blacks, Asians, Jews, gays, Mormons, Muslims, Hispanics, communists, unions, immigrants both legal and illegal, Catholics, people with disabilities and anybody that they don't consider white or isn't Protestant.

Bro, did you grow up with Donny & Marie? If you didn't then you don't know how they were raised. I assume and believe that they were brought up to not be biased against others; but I don't have first hand knowledge, so I don't say it. It also doesn't have much to do with the question asked.

Stay on track, so what if there are a whole bunch of people who are not LDS who are biased? It doesn't answer the question asked. Just say that you're LDS, that your not a racist, that your family taught you that it is wrong to be racist and that you have always been taught by the church that racism is wrong.

If you have any documentation regarding leaders of the Church that shows the words quoted by elder999 are out of context, misquoted or fabricated, then that would be a great help.

 

[thardey]

How are my opinions weak? It is a well known fact that the SBC has a history of racism and religious bigotry. For instance, former President Jimmy Carter, a SBC member is an anti-Semite. Pat Robertson, the host of The 700 Club, a SBC member hates Mormons, Presbytarians, all Muslims, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and anbody that's not a Baptist. And let's not forget that in the early years of the 20th century starting with about 1915, there were many Baptists and Methodists in the Ku Klux Klan. The Klan hates blacks, Asians, Jews, gays, Mormons, Muslims, Hispanics, communists, unions, immigrants both legal and illegal, Catholics, people with disabilities and anybody that they don't consider white or isn't Protestant.

From post #16

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Sure, but-as I pointed out in my original post-it's still in the preliminary, research phase-all I've posted so far is raw data I've come across for one sect. I picked LDS first simply because I recently took home a copy of the Book of Mormon from a hotel room, and read it for the second time.

Short answer is yes, I'll be happy to post the positive in a separate thread for other sects, as well as a separate one for LDS-if the interest is warranted and not wasteful of Bob's bandwidth. My focus this year, as I've pointed out, is to examine racist doctrine in a variety of religions, so I don't expect that I'll be looking for much in what you'd call the "positive," regardless of sect-though I'll wager that I'll have to look harder than I have so far for LDS to find much negative for the Episcopalians or Quakers....others might just be another story. I can and will, however, speak to racism within the Episcopal church, though the things I speak of would be anecdotal in nature, rather than doctrinal-my grandfather and father were Epicopal priests, among other things, and my grandfather was the founder of an Episcopal parish in Connecticut that chiefly served blacks-or, more contamporaneously, "people of color." Some of their unwritten social code was clearly racist.

You're arguing stuff that was dealt with early on . . . elder999 is not out to say that Mormonism is more racist than other religions - he'll get to those other religions later. He just started with Mormonism because he ran across a Book of Mormon. The racist doctrines of the SBC are irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[DustinJolley]

Elder999 is accusing us of still being racist, despite the fact that our late President and prophet Gordon B. Hinckley who died a couple months ago condemned racism just a few years ago. Besides, the church has tried to apologize for the racist statements of those people, but people like Al Sharpton who is a hypocrit haven't accepted those apologies. Can we move on, please?

 

[elder999]

In fact, they continue to use racist doctine, or at least have racist doctrine as an article of their faith:


Quote:
"Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were born with the characteristics of the black race. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8,12,22; Abra. 1:20-27.) The Book of Mormon explains why the Lamanites received dark skins and a degenerate status. (2 Ne. 5:21-23.) If we had a full and true history of all races and nations, we would know the origins of all their distinctive characteristics. In the absence of such detailed information, however, we know only the general principle that all these changes from the physical and spiritual perfections of our common parents have been brought about by departure from the gospel truths. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 148-151; vol. 3, pp. 313-326.)" (Mormon Doctrine 1999 printing, p. 616)

You know, I haven't accused anyone of anything, so far, leastof all you. However, the history as presented offers some interesting philosophical questions that you might address-for example, if it was an article of faith espoused strongly by Brigham Young-the one time President and prophet, God's voice on earth-that dark-skinned people were cursed by God, and could not participate in the priesthood, then was he wrong-as "God's voice on earth," or somehow in error-or is the LDS church wrong to depart from that teaching, and guilty of apostasy, or did God change His mind and voice it to the last President and prophet
in the form of a revelation,and, if God did change his mind, did the minds of the church members that were taught otherwise also change-or, if they weren't taught otherwise, why weren't they?

I don't mean to be accusatory, but your church certainly was, by all evidence, at one time (as recently as 1977, before the revelation) practicing racism as an article of faith, whatever the reason.

I'll also add that while the Southern Baptist Church was founded in racism, it has since repudiated, repented, denounced, and apologized-you can read about this apology here.

 

[Ray]

Elder999 is accusing us of still being racist, despite the fact that our late President and prophet Gordon B. Hinckley who died a couple months ago condemned racism just a few years ago. Besides, the church has tried to apologize for the racist statements of those people, but people like Al Sharpton who is a hypocrit haven't accepted those apologies. Can we move on, please?

Brother Jolley, If you are a "light on a hill" as we are supposed to try to be then you shouldn't call Al Sharpton a hypocrit...we aren't supposed to judge him (but we can judge the act and decide if it's something we should or shouldn't emulate).

The "Church" (imo) shouldn't try to apologize for the remarks made "by the racist statements" of "those people." Inasmuch as I don't apologize for my father, nor my grandfather, nor my great-grandfather. I don't apologize for "white americans of centuries past" who were slave holders, etc. But I try not to offend, and I do seek forgiveness when I do offend.

Besides, it's tough to argue that the Church wasn't racist when you're saying the "church has tried to apologize for the racist statements of those people..."

Instead of building walls and barriers to anyone who is trying to research and understand the church over the years, we should be building bridges and desire.

 

[DustinJolley]

Elder999, once and for all, racism has never been an official doctrine of our church. Just read the "actual" Articles of Faith from The Pearl of Great Price in our scriptures.

 

[elder999]

The "Church" (imo) shouldn't try to apologize for the remarks made "by the racist statements" of "those people." Inasmuch as I don't apologize for my father, nor my grandfather, nor my great-grandfather. I don't apologize for "white americans of centuries past" who were slave holders, etc. But I try not to offend, and I do seek forgiveness when I do offend.

While I sort of agree with you-I'm certainly not asking for any apology from anyone, or expecting one-I should point out (since it's become part of my research) that several prominent churches (which are supposed to be "eternal")-have done that very thing for their past racism, while the LDS church seems to be somewhat more ambiguous.

 

[Ray]

Elder999, once and for all, racism has never been an official doctrine of our church. Just read the "actual" Articles of Faith from The Pearl of Great Price in our scriptures.

Elder999: There you have it, an authoritative genuine statement on racism in the Church.....:wavey:

 

[Ray]

You know, I haven't accused anyone of anything, so far, leastof all you. However, the history as presented offers some interesting philosophical questions that you might address-for example, if it was an article of faith espoused strongly by Brigham Young-the one time President and prophet, God's voice on earth-that dark-skinned people were cursed by God, and could not participate in the priesthood, then was he wrong-as "God's voice on earth," or somehow in error-or is the LDS church wrong to depart from that teaching, and guilty of apostasy, or did God change His mind and voice it to the last President and prophet
in the form of a revelation,and, if God did change his mind, did the minds of the church members that were taught otherwise also change-or, if they weren't taught otherwise, why weren't they?

I don't mean to be accusatory, but your church certainly was, by all evidence, at one time (as recently as 1977, before the revelation) practicing racism as an article of faith, whatever the reason.

Be advised that the book titled "Mormon Doctrine" is not an official statement of "doctrine" it is a book giving a man's opinion of what he thinks "Mormon Doctrine" is. It is the prophet's job to relate what doctrine is and isn't (unless there isn't a current president, then it {I think} falls to the 12).

 

[DustinJolley]

Thank you, Ray. That's first smart thing anybody's said all day.

 

[elder999]

Elder999, once and for all, racism has never been an official doctrine of our church. Just read the "actual" Articles of Faith from The Pearl of Great Price in our scriptures.

Was it, or was it not official doctrine-or practice-that members of black African descent were excluded from the priesthood and temple ceremonies until 1978?

Was or was not this practice supported by interpreting (or misinterpreting) scrtipture to meant that the black race was cursed? Were or were not these interpretations (or misinterpretations) taught to members of the church until 1978?

I'll add that, rather schizophrenicly(?), and constitutionally correctly, the LDS's official position during the 60's and 70's up to the lifting of "the ban" was pro-civil rights.

 

[Ray]

Having a degree in religious studies, something I do every year is a religion project of some sort, in addition to my own practices. I thought it might be interesting to examine racist doctrine of various religions-I’ve been inspired by some of the activity on this board for this year’s project, which, I admit, has been somewhat late getting started. I thought I’d share some of the project as it develops, and, while it’s only in the research stage, I thought I’d share some quotes from the Church of Latter-day Saints, that demonstrate their basis in racist doctrine:

Joseph Smith
Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66.
There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.
pg. 61.
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.
Juvenile Instructor, vol. 26, p. 635
It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness...It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them.

Of course, they said those things long ago, but I'm finding racist Mormon doctrine all the way through the civil-rights era to 1967-this stuff is truly fascinating! Hard to believe that little Donnie and Marie were raised to be racists.....more to come, if anyone is interested...I'll probably examine the racist doctrine of the early Episcopal Church next, since I was raised Episcopal.....

Elder999: I have to throw out the quote that you gave as "Joseph Smith" (above) pending further information. It is by Joseph Fielding Smith and is a collection of sermons and writings; compiled by someone else (and isn't official church publication).

Although I do not have a copy, I definitely know that one of the chapters in the book (which dealt with evolution vs creation) was given before he was president of the church. Another Elder of the church challenged him on his statements, asking whether what Joseph Fielding Smith said was "official doctrine" or not. The church stated that Smith's opinion on evolution was not "official doctrine."

If you can look in your copy of "Doctrines and Salvation" and tell me when he gave his talk, we'll correlate that to when he was president (which relates to whether he had the ability to set doctrine at that time). Thanks.

 

[DustinJolley]

Nice try, elder999. You seem to be forgetting that the church was also pro-abolition as well.

 

[Ceicei]

The book, “Mormon Doctrine”, was compiled by Bruce R. McConkie, and was printed in 1958 and 1966. (Paperback came out in 1996.) There were later printings. Regardless which year the edition, that book was never officially approved by the LDS Church as doctrine nor is it considered to be canon, despite the title of the book. It is largely a book of selections made by McConkie of things that he thought were important thoughts, quotes, and sayings by various people. While a lot is accurate and brings up many scriptural passages, some things were taken out of context, errors in teachings, and material included that were not considered doctrinal and were opinions only of those quoted; this is why the book never was able to be officially approved (not even unofficially) by the leadership of the LDS Church. The book includes a disclaimer written by the author that he alone was responsible for the doctrinal and scriptural interpretations.

What the Church does use to present doctrine are:

The Holy Bible (both Old and New Testament)
The Book of Mormon
The Doctrine and Covenants
The Pearl of Great Price

Four magazines printed by the LDS church:
Ensign (for adults)
New Era (for youth)
Friend (for children)
Liahona (international)

While not everything currently printed in the magazines are doctrine, the material must at least be in compliance with the teachings. We do have our twice yearly conference (General Conference in April and October) when the Prophet, his apostles, seventies, and other LDS people will speak and their words are carried by television, satellite, radio, cable, and the internet. Their presentations are printed in the Ensign magazines the following month. Both the audio and video of these conference sessions are then put on DVDs and and also made available to listen and read on the Church website (http://lds.org/conference/languages/0,6353,310-1,00.html).

Almost all presentations given in General Conference are written out beforehand to be previewed by the the leadership. Some copies (manuscripts) are made available to those the same day who work behind the scenes as real-time language interpreters/translators, those who prepare the teleprompters, and also closed captioning for the deaf of these sessions. I had been asked a few times some years ago to go up to Salt Lake City to work as a sign language "on-screen interpreter" signing musical numbers during General Conference. It was rather interesting being "behind the scenes" and seeing how things worked.

- Ceicei

 

[elder999]

Nice try, elder999. You seem to be forgetting that the church was also pro-abolition as well.

Oh really?

Utah entered the Union as a slavery state, in 1850, as part of a compromise that admitted California as non slaveholding, and allowing my homestate, New Mexico, and Utah to decide by "popular sovreignty," or a vote. Utah voted for slavery.

Some Mormons from the south had brought slaves into Utah with them. THe Mormon church had no official policy, doctrine or statement against slavery at the time, and church leadership statements from the period are, again, ambiguous at best. Brigham Young seems to have supported slavery, though, while Joseph Smith came out against it.

Additionally, blacks were not the only people enslaved in Utah; Indians were enslaved as well-the settling of Utah interrupted what had been a thriving Spanish?Mexican trade in Indian slaves.

...best maybe if you follow Ray's advice, and stop trying to help-I never mentioned slavery, and, if you can leave it alone, I'll be moving on to Hinduism and those evil Black Muslims.....:lol:

 

[DustinJolley]

Nice try, elder999. You're just making stuff up the way all anti-Mormons do.