Does the Bible teach life begins at birth?

[CanuckMA]

I agree with Tez3, I don't need to be lectured by a Gentile as to what MY Holy text means.

That article you quoted takes a couple of out of context verses from Psalms, and then uses Xtian text to justify the Xtian POV. Sort of circular.

Ancient Hebrews had no clue what happenned in the womb. In Judaism, and it's relevant because you cite Jewish text, life begins at birth (first breath) and 'personhood' at the 31st day, hence the no shiva for a baby who dies in the first 30 days.

 

[Joab]

My dear, you are lecturing again.

The magic word here is discussion.

Wouldn't "lecture" or "discussion" be up to someone's own interpretation, kind of like your view of when human life begins I suppose? And do you really think elder999 or Canuck MA never lectured me on this thread?

 

[Joab]

I agree with Tez3, I don't need to be lectured by a Gentile as to what MY Holy text means.

Joab: You don't have to read it, and it is considered to be a Holy book by Christians as well.

That article you quoted takes a couple of out of context verses from Psalms, and then uses Xtian text to justify the Xtian POV. Sort of circular.

Joab: Whether or not that is true, it is their right, as it is my right to print it.

Ancient Hebrews had no clue what happenned in the womb. In Judaism, and it's relevant because you cite Jewish text, life begins at birth (first breath) and 'personhood' at the 31st day, hence the no shiva for a baby who dies in the first 30 days.

I respectfully disagree. Shalom, have a good day, and feel free to lecture me all you want, as you have so many times in this thread, in a rather patronizing, condescending and out and out obnoxious way time and time again.

 

[elder999]

The thread is "Does the Bible teach life begins at birth"

Which is completely different from "does the Bible say abortion is okay?" It's pretty conclusive that the Bible, ancient Hebrew law and current Jewish law teach that life begins when the baby draws breath, and, more to the point, that even the baby's life is pretty much worthless until it's a month old.

The interpretation of the various Bible verses, and the argument about who's misinterpreting them could go on forever, back and forth between the two of us, but, unlike you, I have no agenda in this, and I'm content in that my viewpoint is the correct one, based upon the evidence and scholarship. I'm not going to argue about the Psalms, or Exodus or any of it anymore.

More to the point, just because the Bible holds the view that life begins when the baby draws breath (because it does, you know) doesn't
mean that it supports abortion-it is only logical, looking at the cultural milieu from which it arose, to conclude that Hebrews of all the generations of Biblical history would have been morally opposed to abortion.

The Hebrew men, anyway.

This is a logical anthropological and sociological conclusion. However, we also know for a fact-anthropologically and sociologically-that methods for abortion existed and were used during those times, and were, of course, the province of women and, principally, midwives. Men wouldn't have known, so there would have been little, if any, opposition.

Lastly, Joab, and I say this as a friend, as gently as I'm capable of-you can believe what you want. Just because "Christianity," or your form of Christianity, or Judaism or whatever it is that you practice, teaches that abortion is wrong, doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't teach that life begins with breathing. And, more to the point, vice versa: just because the Bible teaches one thing, doesn't mean your church (or whatever) is "wrong" for teaching that abortion is wrong-or teaching that it's (abortion being "wrong") supported by scripture, though that one is a bit of a stretch;I'd certainly say that they're mistinterpreting scripture, but I say that about everyone, and what do I know? :lfao:

So, yes-the Bible teaches that life begins with birth and the first breath. It has several prominent verses that demonstrate that the fetus, while not "worthless", is also not valued the same as human life, and, in fact, neither are babies under a month old. I've also demonstrated that several of the verses used as "anti-abortion" simply are not, though they certainly all qualify as praises of the value of life, something that all religions have-the ancient ones that have survived to this date, anyway.

 

[CanuckMA]

I respectfully disagree. Shalom, have a good day, and feel free to lecture me all you want, as you have so many times in this thread, in a rather patronizing, condescending and out and out obnoxious way time and time again.

Please enlighten me as when Judaism believes life begins.

You try to put yourself in my, and Tez's, shoes where a majority keeps telling us what OUR text means according to a translation and when we point out that it is not so, get told that we are wrong because they say so, and you'll get an idea why we get fed up and short,

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Joab, we have got our knickers in a twist, come down off your high horse and make a friendly discussion of this not a strop fest.

Discussions start 'I think, I believe or in my view' they don't state as fact things which aren't facts.
I do have a view on when life begins, it works for me it may not for you BUT the problem comes when my basis for believing is quoted by you to mean something different as you've changed the words!!

 

[CanuckMA]

So, yes-the Bible teaches that life begins with birth and the first breath. It has several prominent verses that demonstrate that the fetus, while not "worthless", is also not valued the same as human life, and, in fact, neither are babies under a month old. I've also demonstrated that several of the verses used as "anti-abortion" simply are not, though they certainly all qualify as praises of the value of life, something that all religions have-the ancient ones that have survived to this date, anyway.

And life is valued high enough that there are only 3 commandments (out of 613) that I may not break to save a life.

 

[elder999]

I'm completely dyslexic when it comes to numbers (is there a word for that?) so sadly Gematria is a sadly lost art for me! I find I get lost very easily as soon as numbers are involved, fascinating though I find it.

The word for numerical dyslexia is dyscalculia...or, just "numerical dyslexia."

I'm an engineer, though, so naturally things like Gematria fascinate the crap out of me.........

 

[Tez3]

The word for numerical dyslexia is dyscalculia...or, just "numerical dyslexia."

I'm an engineer, though, so naturally things like Gematria fascinate the crap out of me.........

Thank you! My father used to tell me off for not being able to do arithmetic etc when I could obviously do English and anything with words. he'd never believe me it was very hard for me to do, he thought I was skiving and being Jewish and education being so important, well it didn't make for an easy relationship at times.
I agree Gematria is interesting but frustrating. I've had little to do with it though, I've found it's mostly the Chasidic community who use it.

 

[CanuckMA]

It is mostly a Chasid thing. It's cool, fascinating and a good intelectual exercise. It is, however, useless.

 

[elder999]

It is mostly a Chasid thing. It's cool, fascinating and a good intelectual exercise. It is, however, useless.

If one examines the implications of their repeated occurance in the Gospels, the conclusions one has to reach are a bit unsettling for some.....

 

[CanuckMA]

But if you look hard enough for any pattern, you'll find one.

 

[elder999]

But if you look hard enough for any pattern, you'll find one.

I don't know that that's necessarily true, but in this case, the patterns all existed in cults that predated Christianity. This could be evidence of later influence by those existing Greek mystery cults, or it could be evidence that Christianity was, from the start, a Greek mystery cult.

 

[Tez3]

I find it interesting the way the Ancients from all cultures found ways to explain life and what they saw around them. It's curious how many 'stories' are similiar such as the Flood. I think we tend to forget these days how little if any scientific knowledge was available to explain things we find so simple small children know it. Imagine the mystery of the sun and not actually knowing it would come up everyday, on a cloudy day where did it go? why did the sea 'come and go' etc. Many cultures knew obviously how to have sex but many didn't connect it with the woman getting pregnant. Childbirth itself could be a huge mystery (still is in some places!)
I imagine the Ancients were wise in the ways of human nature but I find it amazing that they managed to live in a world where there was little knowledge of nature etc it must have been a scary place, no wonder they were so supersitious! And how brave were the first 'scientists'!

 

[Joab]

Please enlighten me as when Judaism believes life begins.

You try to put yourself in my, and Tez's, shoes where a majority keeps telling us what OUR text means according to a translation and when we point out that it is not so, get told that we are wrong because they say so, and you'll get an idea why we get fed up and short,

I was thinking about this before I read your post. And it certainly was never my intention to tick off the Orthodox Jews or Conservative or Reform for that matter. I never imagined my post would go this direction quite honestly. And I do apologize for ticking you guys off. I'm sure you realize that there are some 1.5 billion or so Christians around the world that hold that the Jewish Bible, or what we call the Old Testament is the inspired word of God. Interpretations are bound to not always be the same, if they were you would become Christians. Some of them do know the Hebrew. Some even know the Aramaic. Again, I never saw this thread going the direction it did, and I really don't like to engage in this kind of debate that really goes nowhere due to different interpretations which neither side will ever change. You have your interpretations , I have mine, we can live in peace together anyway. Shalom, have a nice day, and again it was not my intention to tick you guys off.