LDS Church and Racism

[MA-Caver]

You've been criticizing my religion during this entire discussion, elder999.

I don't see it. And believe me I've been watching this discussion rather closely since it's inception. Elder is not anti-Mormon anymore than I am and I can "testify" and find a respected member of this forum to back me up on my support of the church despite the fact that I am not a member of it, though I've been affectionately called a "dry-Mormon" because of my knowledge, beliefs and affection towards many of it's members.

I feel that it is your perception of anything that says anything negative about the LDS church/beliefs/dogma/doctrine/members is considered anti-Mormon.
In-so-far this has been a in-depth discussion on the church's policy of racism.

If you take the time to go back and read ANY of Elder999's posts on this forum you'll see that he is through and leaves very few stones unturned. Take the time to read some of his posts/threads in the past 6-12 months (not all at once mind you) and get a better sense of the man's thinking before calling him anything. Know your enemy as it were if you perceive him to be so.
I do not.

Peace okay? Not every discussion about the church by non-members is an attack against it.
:asian:

 

[elder999]

You've been criticizing my religion during this entire discussion, elder999.

Oh yeah, I said this:

I thought I’d share some of the project as it develops, and, while it’s only in the research stage, I thought I’d share some quotes from the Church of Latter-day Saints,

but I didn't say or make up any of those things that I quoted. Then I said this:

Of course, they said those things long ago, but I'm finding racist Mormon doctrine all the way through the civil-rights era to 1967-this stuff is truly fascinating! Hard to believe that little Donnie and Marie were raised to be racists.....more to come, if anyone is interested...I'll probably examine the racist doctrine of the early Episcopal Church next, since I was raised Episcopal.....

Note that the "Donnie and Marie" remark was somewhat.....snarky?-something I'm known for, that I qualified it with how long ago the quotes were from, and added "if anyone is interested," and interest was demonstrated-in what was a civil conversation until you decided to call me a stupid liar.

I also said this:

<snip!>.... have to add that I've known and know a number of Mormons, and I've liked every one, I have to disagree with the last bit of it. While, in my lifetime, I've found "saints" to be tolerant and easygoing, it's also true that they've maintained racist doctrines right up through the 70's, as you said-and that was long after the oldest Osmond brother was born. In any case, it's not my intention to offend any Mormons, here or otherwise, but merely to explore their racist doctrines, and how they aren't acknowledged....

and this:

<snip!>.....like I've said more than once, I like every Mormon I've ever met.In the end, that's all that really matters. I could care less what a bunch of people-men or women, black or white, rich or poor-had to say about anything, in terms of articles of faith or race, 50 or 100 years ago-we're known to him by our acts, and that's good enough for me as well

and this-THIS ONE IS IMPORTANT, SO SOUND THE WORDS OUT AND READ REAALLLLYYY SLOWLY :

this isn't an attack on your faith:I'm of the opinion that if you believe-as a Mormon or otherwise-that blacks are descended from the devil and cursed by God, hellspawn sent to do mischief upon the earth, then that's your right under the 1st Amendment. I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd defend anyone's right to believe it-

and this:

for the last time-I hope-I like LDS people, almost every one I've ever met. I admire their family values, and follow some of their preparedness practices-in fact, I even exceed them. This isn't "anti-Mormon." (THough I did once write a paper on how the Mormons aren't Christians, in that they embrace several doctrines held to be "heresies" by mainstream Christianity, but, again, it doesn't matter to me at all.) It could easily be about the foundations of the phrase "kill em all and let God sort them out" being Catholic in origin, and from the crusades, or the racist doctrine of the Southern Baptist Church-or even the racist doctrines of Judaism-if I find any. In the meantime, though, it's about LDS,past and present, okay?

then I posted this:

Well, I can accept that. Would you say that LDS doctrine has changed, then?How did this change come about? Should it have come about? Why did it come about? Does every member embrace this change? Should those of us who aren't members of the LDS be suspicious of their past doctrines, especially those of us who are "dark-skinned?" If not, why not? If so, why?

If you can't articulate how the changes came about, then how can you truly differentiate between what happened in the past, and what is held to be true now? It's entirely possible-even likely-that members of the church of LDS heirarchy were teaching racist doctrine prior to 1978, and are alive today? Do they truly believe differently? Did they experience some sort of personal epiphany on an individual level, or is it enough that their president simply said it was so?

Lastly, I'll point out that within a week I'll be posting on the inherent racism of Hinduism, but hey.....

Which was a bunch of questions that some of your brethren answered, but I get the feeling you'd rather weren't asked at all-and pointed out that I'm not singling out the LDS...

and lastly, four pages ago, I said this-though I've reiterated similar thoughts several times:

I want to say, first off and again, that I have no axe to grind with the LDS, or just about anyone else-in my America, everyone is free to believe and actice their religion just about however they like, as long as it doesn&#8217;t entail violating anyone else&#8217;s rights, and I&#8217;ve long admired quite a few LDS practices, and made them my own: my children and I had a family meeting every week, for instance. Your church seems to have moved past what some might call their racist roots, and I never detected a hint of racism from any of the members I met before 1978-though one girl in 5th grade just plain didn&#8217;t like me, near as I can tell. There are certainly much nuttier sects out there in terms of racial doctrine.

<snip!>


Shame. Good that the LDS has gotten past it, though.

I don&#8217;t really have time right now, but I would like to respond to the other replies, excellent and otherwise-especially Ray&#8217;s, which raised some interesting philosophical questions for me. In the meantime, I&#8217;d like to ask you both if you have any personal experience with African-American members of your church, and what that was like.

So all I've really done is offer up information, and ask questions-I'm sorry that it bothers you-maybe I should just mind my own business, and shut up-but this is America, and I don't have to (yet!).

...can't wait to take a beating from all the Hindus and members of the Nation of Islam on this board....snicker!

...still haven't heard what it is that I "made up," but at this point I don't expect to.

 

[elder999]

IIf you take the time to go back and read ANY of Elder999's posts on this forum you'll see that he is through and leaves very few stones unturned. Take the time to read some of his posts/threads in the past 6-12 months (not all at once mind you) and get a better sense of the man's thinking before calling him anything. Know your enemy as it were if you perceive him to be so.
I do not.:asian:

Thanks, man-I'd say ALMOST any of my posts, as I can be a bit of a butt, at times-usually deliberately, and probably will be again.....I'm no one of any significance, after all....:asian:

 

[Ceicei]

Elder999,

I felt your questions were very probing and I welcomed them. A frank discussion is always a good thing as long as there is an open dialogue with the purpose to try to understand each other. I feel no offense with your questions--I believe serious questions are there that seek for clarifying answers. How else can an understanding happen without the questions and answers? Explaining and understanding the background and context of the questions and answers usually help to communicate better. I do recognize that some of your questions were given as a challenge. <shrug> That's okay. Even challenges deserve answers, if the challenger is willing to consider them.

Thank you for making a thread of such a difficult topic--I know you are not the only one who has read, thought, and questioned the same things regarding racism and the LDS Church. It is easy for some of your questions to be misunderstood and viewed as attacks, especially if the purpose and motive of your questions weren't initially clear. I think your "LDS Church and Racism" thread has, for the most part, been productive and I enjoyed the opportunity to share some answers (I hope they were somewhat useful). Please do not hesitate to ask more questions.

- Ceicei