Does the Bible teach life begins at birth?

[elder999]

Its too bad you can't seem to counter any of my points at all in English. Have a good night.

Actually , your arguments are weak in any language:

Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God (Psalm 22:9-10).

In this verse, David is singing to God , and using some rather nice metaphor and hyperbole to do so. In actuality, David, (or whoever wrote the Psalms) like the rest of us, has no idea what went on when he was “in his mother’s womb.”

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (Psalm 139:13-16).

See above, in re: David, singing to God, unknowing in the womb, yada yada yada, blah, blah, blh.

This is what the LORD says—he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you...(Isaiah 44:2).

This is Isaiah (or the writer of Isaiah) talking to Israel about their relationship with God. Metaphor again, and pretty good….

Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you (Isaiah 46:3-4).

See above, in re: Relationship, Israel, God, metaphor, yada yada, etc.


And now the LORD says—he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength (Isaiah 49:5).

See above, in re: Isaiah and/or “writer of Isaiah”

The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

Everything I said about Isaiah? Just double it for Jeremiah, mmmmkay?

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:41-42, 44).

Women talking to each other, with the “baby kicking” as anyone who’s been around for a pregnancy knows that they do.

Whenever we use out of context verses to support doctrine and dogma, we can run into trouble. For instance:

"Why dost Thou stand afar off, O Lord? Why dost Thou hide Thyself in times of trouble?" Psalm 10:1 "
How long, O Lord? Wilt Thou forget me forever? How long wilt Thou hide Thy face from me?" Psalm 13:1
"O God, Thou hast rejected us. Thou hast broken us; Thou hast been angry; O, restore us. Psalm 60:1

Do you really believe that David is saying here that he's been abandoned by God? That God has forsaken him?

You quoted Jeremiah, but not the whole passage:

"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant." Jeremiah 1:4-10

So this is a big deal, the awakening of a prophet-the moment God speaks to him.

We're (most of us) not prophets. These verses don't apply to "human beings," but to Jeremiah, and, through metaphor, the nation of Israel.

It also doesn't work for you because God says "before I formed thee in the womb[/i]" God isn't speaking of Jeremiah the fetus; he's speaking of Jeremiah before the fetus-Jeremiah the spiritual being.

As for the verse from Luke, we have John the Baptist, the fetus, reacting to the approach of Jesus the Son of God, the fetus-a prophet again, and a supernatural being.


In counterpoint, though, and in full context, Solomon says in Ecclesiates:

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

and yet:

Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

So the wise king Solomon says that sometimes it's better not to be born. In addition to Job, these are two instances where the Bible points to quality of life, and says that without it, sometimes a baby is better off not being born.

Furthermore, we have several instances that clearly support the idea of minimal value for the Biblical fetus.In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Hebrews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. No human life (soul) till first breath at birth. This is the clear biblical view as well as the Jewish view from biblical times and today. .In Hebrew the word nephesh means both "person" and "breath". Only after a person is born is nephesh used. In James it was said "for just as the body without breath is dead, so faith without works is dead." Likewise, until birth there is no breath and no spirit.Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says abortion is wrong. The Bible declares the death penalty for murdering another person but not when a fetus dies since it is not equated with a human person. If indeed the Hebrews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple: As far as the Bible is concerned, a fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder.
Period.

 

[CanuckMA]

I started typing G_d to not offend him, I merely asked him to exhibit the same courtesy. And I don't buy your x out of Christmas arguement at all.

I don't truly care how you write G-d. The prohibition is incumbent on Jews. Same as the prohibition on writing the name of other gods. There are practices in Xtianity that are arguably idolatrous from a Jewish perspective, and that only re-enforces the prohibition.

Just where do you think the fish symbol for Xtianity comes from?

It's a stylized form of the Greek letter.

Kind word of advice for you, as you seem quite new around here. If you are going to venture in a religious debate, especially one that involves interpretation of someone else's religious text, grow a thicker skin and don the asbestos underwear. A lot of us have been at this for a while. While we are agreeing and supporting each other here, you can find a few threads where elder and I go at it. Nature of the beast. At the end of the day, I'd still sit down with elder over a beer. I think it would be a fascinating evening.

 

[CanuckMA]

What don't you understand about the words "I don't care" and "I find it offensive". And quite frankly, I'm getting rather tired of your boorish behaviour.

And I find offensive the way out of context quotes are used to support a religion that has caused my people so much suffering. But hey, I live with it.

 

[elder999]

Kind word of advice for you, as you seem quite new around here. If you are going to venture in a religious debate, especially one that involves interpretation of someone else's religious text, grow a thicker skin and don the asbestos underwear. A lot of us have been at this for a while. While we are agreeing and supporting each other here, you can find a few threads where elder and I go at it. Nature of the beast. At the end of the day, I'd still sit down with elder over a beer. I think it would be a fascinating evening.

Yeah, I'm sure it would. But I'm going to disagree here, just a little, because:

Just where do you think the fish symbol for Xtianity comes from?

It's a stylized form of the Greek letter.

The entire icthys thing is ridiculously fascinating.

Astrologically, those events took place in the Age of Pisces.

Jesus caused the disciples to catch 153 fish, in John. Remember that number, 153, because the icthys is seen by some as a whole sacred geometry thing related to the vesica piscis, the shqape caused by the intersection of two circles of the same radius. Interestingly, the mathematical ratio of its width to its height is 265:153, or a close approximation of the square root of three.

And, of course, there's the whole "fisherman/fishers of men" aspect of Christ's ministry.

ΙΧΘΥΣ,Icthys, the Greek word for fish, was used as a symbol of all of these things by ancient Christians, depending upon which kind of ancient Christian they were. It's also an acronym, though, for "Jesus, Christ (anointed one), God's Son, Savior"

ΙΧΘΥΣ: Iota Chi Theta Upsilon Sigma, or , Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ: "Jesus, Christ, God's Son, Savior

 

[CanuckMA]

elder, that was realy interesting. Thanks.

 

[Big Don]

Luke 1:14-16 (King James Version)

14And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

That doesn't seem to indicate life beginning at birth

 

[Tez3]

Oh, I don't know, maybe, just maybe, because I'm an Orthodox Jew...

I haven't posted because Canuck has said everything for me and yes that will be me.. the Orthodox Jew too.

 

[Tez3]

I haven't posted because Canuck has said everything for me and yes that will be me.. the Orthodox Jew too.

Or Orthodox Jew 2?

Elder thanks for posting about the Xtian bits, new to me and interesting!

 

[Big Don]

I read about the Xtian thing a couple of years ago, VERY interesting.

 

[elder999]

Luke 1:14-16 (King James Version)



That doesn't seem to indicate life beginning at birth

Yeah, these are the words spoken by the archangel Gabriel in the temple to Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist. So we again have a supernatural being speaking to, in this case, the father of a prophet in supernatural terms, i.e., "filled with the Holy Spirit,even in his mother's womb." More to the point,the verse is again taken out of context. The chapter goes on to say:

23When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. 25"The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."

So, following the sequence of events in the chapter, Gabriel wasn't speaking of a fetus, he was speaking about John before he was even conceived.

It's important to consider that the writers of the Gospels-and the "Old Testament" as well-were very careful in writing what was the "literal word of God," and what was the "literal word of God in supernatural terms." They understood that some things......aren't meant to be understood, or are incomprehensible, and, in their attempts to record such things, often resorted to language that can be confusing-couple this with mistranslations and remistranslations-like the excrable King James Version-and you are open to all sorts of befuddling interpretations. This one is a very good example of this, and follows a theme I've used throughout this thread. The Greek words used-and I'll spare you them-for "filled with the Holy Spirit"are entirely the same as the Greek words for breathing, or to be inspired. In this case, what the angel Gabriel is saying to Zechariah is almost quite literally that the baby will breathe, even in its mothers womb. It's an attempt to explain the supernatural nature of the coming child's prophecy,in the idiom and metaphor of the time, in terms that are both understandable and incomprehensible.

It's also one of those things that's pretty much like what I jokingly say to fundamentalist Christians about homosexuality-that I follow everything Jesus said about it, which is, of course, nothing. In the reality, though, we can examine the culture and Hebrew teaching of the time, and have a pretty good idea of what a pious Hebrew like Jesus would have thought of homosexuality.

But, to borrow from Kevin Smith, that would be an "idea", not a "fact" and certainly not a "belief."

 

[elder999]

elder, that was realy interesting. Thanks.

You want interesting? Translate ΙΧΘΥΣ into Hebrew and do the gematria.....or just do the Greek gematria....weird, and what I meant by ridiculously fascinating.

 

[Empty Hands]

You want interesting? Translate ΙΧΘΥΣ into Hebrew and do the gematria.....or just do the Greek gematria....weird, and what I meant by ridiculously fascinating.

What happens when you do that?

 

[elder999]

What happens when you do that?

That'd be a pretty big thread drift, at this point.Basically, it comes back to the icthys also being the symbol for the Greek/Syrian Adonis cult before Christianity, the whole sacred geometry thing, and the vesica piscis. There's a pretty good overview of the basics of the arithmetic of all that here, from 53 on, though the language is somewhat archaic, given the period....the implications, though, are somewhat startling for some, theologically speaking..

 

[Joab]

Using biblical texts out of context as a pretext for abortion, pro-abortionists seek to retain some semblance of religiosity while at the same time espousing the radical planks of the pro-abortion movement. The most common argument in this area is that Scripture nowhere specifically condemns abortion or identifies it as the killing of an innocent human being. Such an argument, however, obscures the fact that the Bible depicts preborn children as living beings who are fully human (see, e.g., Ps. 139:13-16). Furthermore, Scripture clearly denounces the killing of an innocent human being as murder. Thus, abortion is a violation of the Sixth Commandment (Exod. 20:13).
Ironically, one of the most commonly used biblical pretexts for abortion is found only one chapter after God’s explicit command, "Thou shall not murder": "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined...But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." (Exod. 21:22-25; NASB). The argument goes something like this: If a man strikes a pregnant woman and causes her to have a spontaneous abortion, the penalty is merely a fine. However, if the woman dies, the penalty is death. Thus, no life was taken, according to Exodus 21, unless the woman died.
Thus interpreted, this passage is not being used but abused to support abortion. Let’s take a closer look at what the Hebrew text (as correctly translated by the NIV) really says: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury [the implication here is that no death is involved], the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life [in other words, if the woman or child should die, the appropriate punishment is death]."
Another biblical pretext, typically referred to as the "argument from breath," involves Genesis 2:7: "The Lord God formed man from dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."
The "argument from breath" is frequently presented in the following manner: God did not consider Adam to be a "living soul" until He had breathed the "breath of life" into him. Thus a child does not become a human being until he or she begins to breathe.
Dispensing with this argument is a simple matter. Adam was inanimate before God breathed the breath of life into him. Conversely, as science demonstrates, the conceptus or preborn child is alive from the very moment of conception. It is important to note that the breath of life exists in the preborn child from the moment of conception. In reality, it is the form, not the fact, of oxygen transfer (breath) that changes at birth.
source: The Christian Research Institute www.equip.org

 

[Joab]

Arguments Against Abortion

Kerby Anderson

Kerby Anderson is the president of Probe Ministries International. He received his B.S. from Oregon State University, M.F.S. from Yale University, and M.A. from Georgetown University. He is the author of several books, including Genetic Engineering, Origin Science, Living Ethically in the 90s, Signs of Warning, Signs of Hope, and Moral Dilemmas. He also served as general editor for Marriage, Family and Sexuality.
He is a nationally syndicated columnist whose editorials have appeared in the Dallas Morning News, the Miami Herald, the San Jose Mercury, and the Houston Post.
He is the host of "Probe," and frequently serves as guest host on "Point of View" (USA Radio Network).

​

Biblical Arguments Against Abortion

In this essay we will be discussing arguments against abortion. The first set of arguments we will consider are biblical arguments.
That being said, we must begin by acknowledging that the Bible doesn't say anything about abortion directly. Why the silence of the Bible on abortion? The answer is simple. Abortion was so unthinkable to an Israelite woman that there was no need to even mention it in the criminal code. Why was abortion an unthinkable act? First, children were viewed as a gift or heritage from the Lord. Second, the Scriptures state--and the Jews concurred--that God opens and closes the womb and is sovereign over conception. Third, childlessness was seen as a curse.
One of the key verses to understand in developing a biblical view of the sanctity of human life is Psalm 139. This psalm is the inspired record of David's praise for God's sovereignty in his life. He begins by acknowledging that God is omniscient and knows what David is doing at any given point in time. He goes on to acknowledge that God is aware of David's thoughts before he expresses them. David adds that wherever he might go, he cannot escape from God, whether he travels to heaven or ventures into Sheol. God is in the remotest part of the sea and even in the darkness. Finally David contemplates the origin of his life and confesses that God was there forming him in the womb.
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (vv. 13-16).
Here David speaks of God's relationship with him while he was growing and developing before birth. Notice that the Bible doesn't speak of fetal life as mere biochemistry. The description here is not of a piece of protoplasm that becomes David: this is David already being cared for by God while in the womb.
In verse 13, we see that God is the Master Craftsman fashioning David into a living person. In verses 14 and 15, David reflects on the fact that he is a product of God's creative work within his mother's womb, and he praises God for how wonderfully God has woven him together.
David draws a parallel between his development in the womb and Adam's creation from the earth. Using figurative language in verse 15, he refers to his life before birth when "I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth." This poetic allusion harkens back to Genesis 2:7 which says that Adam was made from the dust of the earth.
David also notes that "Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance." This shows that God knew David even before he was known to others. The term translated unformed substance is a noun derivative of a verb meaning "to roll up." When David was just forming as a fetus, God's care and compassion already extended to him. The reference to "God's eyes" is an Old Testament term used to connotate divine oversight of God in the life of an individual or group of people.
Next, we will consider additional Old Testament passages that provide a biblical argument against abortion.
Additional Old Testament Arguments Against Abortion

Now that we've looked at Psalm 139, the most popular argument against abortion, let's look at two other Old Testament passages.
Another significant passage is Psalm 51. It was written by David after his sin of adultery with Bathsheba and records his repentance. David confesses that his sinful act demonstrated the original sin that was within him, "Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 5l:5). David concludes that from his time of conception, he had a sin nature. This would imply that he carried the image of God from the moment of conception, including the marred image scarred from sin.
Human beings are created in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 9:6). Bearing the image of God is the essence of humanness. And though God's image in man was marred at the Fall, it was not erased (cf. 1 Cor. 11:7; James 3:9). Thus, the unborn baby is made in the image of God and therefore fully human in God's sight.
This verse also provides support for what is called the traducian view of the origin of the soul. According to this perspective, human beings were potentially in Adam (Rom. 5:12, Heb. 7:9-10) and thus participated in his original sin. The "soulish" part of humans is transferred through conception. Therefore, an unborn baby is morally accountable and thus fully human.
Another argument against abortion can be found in the Old Testament legal code, specifically Exodus 21:22-25.

If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.​

The verses appear to teach that if a woman gives birth prematurely, but the baby is not injured, then only a fine is appropriate. However, if the child dies then the law of retaliation (lex talionis) should be applied. In other words, killing an unborn baby would carry the same penalty as killing a born baby. A baby inside the womb has the same legal status as a baby outside the womb.
Some commentators have come to a different conclusion because they believe the first verses only refer to a case of accidental miscarriage. Since only a fine is levied, they argue that an unborn baby is merely potential life and does not carry the same legal status as a baby that has been born.
There are at least two problems with this interpretation. First, the normal Hebrew word for miscarry is not used in this passage (cf. Gen. 31:38; Exod. 23:26; Job 2:10; Hos. 9:14). Most commentators now believe that the action described in verse 22 is a premature birth not an accidental miscarriage. Second, even if the verses do describe a miscarriage, the passage cannot be used to justify abortion. The injury was accidental, not intentional (as abortion would be). Also, the action was a criminal offense and punishable by law.

 

[Tez3]

Joab, it's nice that you believe in something, I wish you good health and long life.
However, this is your belief not ours and while I'm sure we find it interesting we don't have to agree so lecturing us is probably a pointless though worthy exercise.
I've no wish to get iinvolved in a long discussion about what my ancestors did or didn't think, can't say I wish to be told what they thought by a goy either but there you are, I'm tired and cranky tonight.

I'm completely dyslexic when it comes to numbers (is there a word for that?) so sadly Gematria is a sadly lost art for me! I find I get lost very easily as soon as numbers are involved, fascinating though I find it.

 

[Joab]

Joab, it's nice that you believe in something, I wish you good health and long life.
However, this is your belief not ours and while I'm sure we find it interesting we don't have to agree so lecturing us is probably a pointless though worthy exercise.
I've no wish to get iinvolved in a long discussion about what my ancestors did or didn't think, can't say I wish to be told what they thought by a goy either but there you are, I'm tired and cranky tonight.

I'm completely dyslexic when it comes to numbers (is there a word for that?) so sadly Gematria is a sadly lost art for me! I find I get lost very easily as soon as numbers are involved, fascinating though I find it.

The thread is "Does the Bible teach life begins at birth" It is within "The Study" thread, which does allow such a thread to exist. Feel free to ignore if you so desire, no one is forcing you to read it, and dispute if you so desire, it is your right of course. The thread remains, there are threads I don't like, I choose to ignore them.

 

[Joab]

The link for the Kerby Anderson article entitled "Does the Bible teach life begins at birth is:www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/org-abor.html-27k

I apologize for not entering it on the initial post-Joab

 

[Joab]

Joab, it's nice that you believe in something, I wish you good health and long life.
However, this is your belief not ours and while I'm sure we find it interesting we don't have to agree so lecturing us is probably a pointless though worthy exercise.
I've no wish to get iinvolved in a long discussion about what my ancestors did or didn't think, can't say I wish to be told what they thought by a goy either but there you are, I'm tired and cranky tonight.

I'm completely dyslexic when it comes to numbers (is there a word for that?) so sadly Gematria is a sadly lost art for me! I find I get lost very easily as soon as numbers are involved, fascinating though I find it.

The Study For the serious discussion of non-martial arts topics including world events, social and political issues, or other items not covered in the other forums. Topics in here should stay focused on their topic, with new threads created where topics split

 

[Tez3]

The Study For the serious discussion of non-martial arts topics including world events, social and political issues, or other items not covered in the other forums. Topics in here should stay focused on their topic, with new threads created where topics split

My dear, you are lecturing again.

The magic word here is discussion.