Is America A "Christian Nation?"

[Ramirez]

It's certainly reflected in the Presidency

• It was a big deal that John F. Kennedy was the first Catholic President
• It was a big deal that Ronald Reagan was the first divorced President
• It was a big deal that Al Gore's running mate, Joe Lieberman, was Jewish
• It was a big deal that Mitt Romney was a Mormon
• It was a big deal that Barack Obama's heritage was partly Muslim

Americans have become more interested in the specifics of their Presidents' religious beliefs and practices in my lifetime. That, I suspect, has been part of the rising tide of fundamentalism, and has less to do with the President's party affiliation. By way of an informal observation, it seemed to me that there was a media scrum every time President Clinton emerged from Church with his bible in one hand and Hilary Clinton in the other.

I think it's become virtually impossible to function in politics in the USA without consciously communicating your religious values to constituents.

I believe it was Richard Dawkins in his book the God Delusion that pointed out that perhaps one member of the senate and the congress in the US will admit to being an atheist, yet polls of higher education from which most of the members of those houses are drawn from have agnostic/atheist belief as high as 40% (or around that number, I can't recall the exact statistic).

 

[elder999]

this is just my take on things, we started off as a christian nation and \most of our laws and freedoms are based on christian principles(read the declaration and the constitution),

.

which ones????!!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry and I don’t mean to interrupt and I have little to add but I do believe of all the so called developed nations
(or it could have been world powers) on the planet America is considered the most puritanical and bases more on religion than most if not all. There is an article out there on this somewhere but I cannot find it.

EDIT

These are not the articel I read but it is saying the same thing

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167

Religion

Religion is a significant part of the culture of the United States. The United States is one of the most religious developed nations in the world. According to a 44-nation survey by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, religion is more important to people in the US than to those in other industrialized nations, second to only Ireland.
The largest group of self-described religious participants in the United States are Catholics, followed by Baptists. The First Amendment guarantees right to freedom of religion. It also ensures that the government does not act in the interest or disinterest of religion.

 

[Sukerkin]

I mean no insult to anyone of deep faith but if you let religion get too entangled in the reins of power you're just asking for trouble.

Over here in England, we don't have such a problem because the office of the head of the Church of England is embodied in the sovereign. That neatly keeps the church out of the day-to-day running of the House of Commons and altho' present in the House of Lords, the non-secular members have the sense to confine their contributions to the practical.

Any nation that begins to think that 'God' directs it's steps is on the slippery slope.

 

[jarrod]

every so often i run into someone who tells me that the ten commandments are the basis for our laws. i usually ask them to point to the laws prohibiting lying, adultery, excessive coveting, & failing to honor thy father & mother.

jf

 

[Ramirez]

This is just my take on things, we started off as a Christian nation and most of our laws and freedoms are based on Christian principles(read the Declaration and the Constitution), but we have slipped very far away form staying a Christian nation. I think that as the atheist movement grew along with globalization, we have slipped away from God. We have been blessed over the years because we were a Christian nation, but IMO, we are about to have God remove his blessings from us. This will happen unless we get back to the Christian roots that made this country great.

Are you serious? I think the US is a more religious nation than it was 25 years ago, for eg. the number of people that are creationists is likely greater than the 60s.

 

[Ramirez]

every so often i run into someone who tells me that the ten commandments are the basis for our laws. i usually ask them to point to the laws prohibiting lying, adultery, excessive coveting, & failing to honor thy father & mother.

jf

hmmm....that might not be so far from the truth....Western mores might be based on Jewish mores, or perhaps Roman based with Christian hence Jewish mores.

Perhaps the historians on the board might be able to tell us whether Western law is more influenced by Roman law, or Roman law which was incorporated into Christianity, or perhaps Jewish laws which influenced Roman laws through adoption of Christianity as the state religion by Constantine.

I really don't know, I would be interested to find out though. Anyone?

 

[seasoned]

Is America A "Christian Nation?"

Was it founded on "Christian Faith?"

These questions came up for me (again!) on another thread, and I thought I’d share some of my answers.

At the time of the Revolution, the population of what would become this country were either immigrants from, or the children of immigrants from places where the state controlled the church, and, in some ways, vice versa. In England, there had been the Church of England-which persecuted other sects-the Puritans come to mind, because the Puritans wound up doing the same thing to others in New England. In France there’d been the Catholic Church, which persecuted Protestant Hugenots who would emigrate to the U.S.....and so on.

At the time of the Revolution, as near as we can tell, less than 20% of the population of the 13 colonies actually belonged to a church. Part of this might have been due to remoteness. In some places, where people had settled to avoid or escape religious persecution (which became something of an American tradition, but I digress) there might be one church for the town, and all would attend. In others, there might not be any, and in still other places, like New York City, there might be quite a few.

In any case, as has been said time and again, the Founding Fathers might not be recognized by many of the Christians of today as "Christians" themselves-they were, in spite of membership in various churches, often for purely social reasons, mostly deists: they believed that the universe has a Creator, and that he really doesn’t care about us at all. They all had mixed and complicated feelings on religion, and churches.

Thomas Jefferson, a Unitarian Universalist, in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence, wrote All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights."

Among his many accomplishments, Jefferson compiled an abridged New Testament, one consisting solely of the words of Jesus. He denied the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, though. Some Jefferson quotes:



James Madison, author of the Constitution and Baptist (interestingly, it was the Baptists who were instrumental in securing the "separation of church and state"), had these things to say:



John Adams, our second President, hero of the Revolution, and sometime Episcopalian, denied the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and had these things to say:



You can look for yourself, almost all the Founders, Ben Franklin to Aaron Burr to George Washington (who was well known for attending the Episcopal church with his wife in New York, but pointedly getting up from his seat and leaving at the consecration of the Eucharist) go on in a like vein about organized religion, Christianity, and the nature of God. The Founding Fathers, and our country, were products of the European Enlightenment, and free thought-not Christianity, or any other religion.

We have got to be a Christian nation, or else why is there a big push to take God out of everything. As it stands now, we are only half what we use to be, as a nation. Some one, or some thing, is working very hard to diminish this even further. It is up to each individual to turn his face toward God, then the national will be healed. Sorry about the soap box, but you did ask. J

 

[tellner]

This is just my take on things, we started off as a Christian nation and most of our laws and freedoms are based on Christian principles(read the Declaration and the Constitution),

Sorry, but you're absolutely 100% wrong here. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are not even vaguely Christian documents.

God isn't mentioned except in one phrase in the most Deist sense, "Nature and Nature's God".

God, let alone Jesus isn't invoked anywhere. This puts it radically outside of everything from Royal Pronouncements to the Magna Carta to the Mayflower Compact and the founding documents of the colonies.

We have a radically anti-Christian notion. The government doesn't receive its authority from God. Instead it derives its "just powers from the consent of the governed".

There is no Established Church. Such things were standard in Christian countries. Wars were fought over which Church got to lord it over the others. The Bill of Rights specifically forbids such a thing.

What's more, where the franchise and government office were confined to Protestants, Catholics, C.O.E. or some other sect in England or various colonies, the fundamental law of the land explicitly says that "no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust".

So you see, you are completely wrong. There is no Christian content in either of the most important founding documents of the United States of America. This was a conscious repudiation of the very notion of a Christian nation. It flew in the face of a thousand years of the Divine Right of Kings and ecclesiastic authority wedded to secular rule.

 

[elder999]

We have got to be a Christian nation, or else why is there a big push to take God out of everything. As it stands now, we are only half what we use to be, as a nation.

I don't always agree with the big push to take God out of everything. On a case by case basis, it sometimes makes sense, it's sometimes nonsense. It usually has nothing to do with "God" one way or the other.

While I don't agree with your estimation ("half") we are diminished as a nation because that is the nature of things. Nothing more.

Some one, or some thing, is working very hard to diminish this even further.-

Hmmm. Who could it be, I wonder? Could it be......

Nope, not even gonna go there. :lfao:

This nation is in no way founded upon "Christian principles."And no one has bothered to tell me which ones they think it is founded upon so far....interesting.

According to scripture,, believers are to be wary of "all mortal powers." Their home is the kingdom of God, which transcends all earthly things, not any particular nation-state. The Psalmist advises believers to "put not your trust in princes." The author of Job says that the Lord "shows no partiality to princes nor regards the rich above the poor, for they are all the work of his hands." Before Pilate, Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world." And if, as Paul writes in Galatians, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus," then it is difficult to see how there could be a distinction in God’s eyes between, say, an American and an Australian. In fact, there is no distinction if you believe Peter’s words in the Acts of the Apostles: "I most certainly believe now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is welcome to him."

In fact, the argument could be made that the U.S. was founded upon pagan principles, but we'll just leave it at its founding being based upon secular principles. I'm not certain that any of the Christians of today would recognize the Founders as Christians in any sense of the word, if they could sit down and "witness to them."

More to the point, it's a government "Of the people, for the people, and by the people"-not in"Jesus's name", not in "the name of God", not even "under God."

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id9.html

I think the founding fathers did believe in some sort of Christian value but I think for the founding fathers they were not set in dogma and religion to them was a double edge sword. Ben Franklin wrestled with morality and prostitution.

 

[elder999]

At its foundation, our American revolution was un-Christian. I have a hard time seeing how our government could have been founded on Christian principles, when its very founding violated one:

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 1 Peter 2:13-14
​

No matter how you cut it, the founding fathers were revolting against the King of England. It should be remembered that Peter wrote these words while Israel was suffering under the domination of government far more oppressive than England ever was. In fact, compared to current taxes, our forefathers had nothing to complain about.

What Peter wrote seems perfectly clear and unambiguous; furthermore, it is consistent with what Jesus said about his kingdom not being a part of this world (John 18:23 and 36).

As a Christian, it would be very difficult to justify armed revolt against any ruler. Passive resistance to injustice and evil, as embodied in the concept of civil disobedience, however, does have Scriptural precedent ,as for instance in the case of the early Christians described in Acts 5:28-29:

"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."
​

Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!"

Civil disobedience means obeying a higher, moral law, but willingly suffering the consequences of your actions and submitting to the authority of those in power to arrest or even kill you for your disobedience. Peter and the others were arrested, and many of them were ultimately martyred. But they never participated in violent protest, nor did they resist those in authority by violence.

 

[seasoned]

[/size]

I don't always agree with the big push to take God out of everything. On a case by case basis, it sometimes makes sense, it's sometimes nonsense. It usually has nothing to do with "God" one way or the other.

While I don't agree with your estimation ("half") we are diminished as a nation because that is the nature of things. Nothing more.

[/size]

Hmmm. Who could it be, I wonder? Could it be......

Nope, not even gonna go there. :lfao:

This nation is in no way founded upon "Christian principles."And no one has bothered to tell me which ones they think it is founded upon so far....interesting.

According to scripture,, believers are to be wary of "all mortal powers." Their home is the kingdom of God, which transcends all earthly things, not any particular nation-state. The Psalmist advises believers to "put not your trust in princes." The author of Job says that the Lord "shows no partiality to princes nor regards the rich above the poor, for they are all the work of his hands." Before Pilate, Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world." And if, as Paul writes in Galatians, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus," then it is difficult to see how there could be a distinction in God’s eyes between, say, an American and an Australian. In fact, there is no distinction if you believe Peter’s words in the Acts of the Apostles: "I most certainly believe now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is welcome to him."

In fact, the argument could be made that the U.S. was founded upon pagan principles, but we'll just leave it at its founding being based upon secular principles. I'm not certain that any of the Christians of today would recognize the Founders as Christians in any sense of the word, if they could sit down and "witness to them."

More to the point, it's a government "Of the people, for the people, and by the people"-not in"Jesus's name", not in "the name of God", not even "under God."

You are right less would be a better word then half. And, yes the devil does make us do it.

 

[Andrew Green]

1776 – The Declaration of Independence says, “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness – That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men … “

This was prior to Hume and Kant casting doubt on the argument from design, and Origin of the Species was not published until 1859, prior to that the idea that a creator existed was pretty much standard, however did not necessarily imply Christianity. Many of the founding fathers where Deists, or otherwise rejected organized Christianity in favour of what they saw as a more "rational" understanding of God.

 

[teekin]

It would appear that we are to the eyes of much of the country as well. I know that to not be a Christian in this country pretty much gives the impression that it is a "Christian nation," but I'm really not sure, except perhaps demographically, what that signifies, and if it actually means anything at all.

I mean, demographically, China is the largest "Christian nation" of all....:lfao: Is a nation of Christians, in fact, a "Christian nation?"

More to the point, what about the perception of "Christian" today-both within the country and in the greater world, "Christians" are defined, more and more, by what they stand against, rather than what they stand for-is that what anyone wants?

I mentioned the Baptists pushing for separation of church and state-they did that because they believed that God's authority came from people-that the people give God authority. Not to priests, and that God's authority doesn't come from priests, or the government-and they had been persecuted for that belief.

My second question still stands, though-are we founded upon "Christian faith" and/or "Christian principles?" If so, which ones?

Elder, you must know WHY the Baptists took this stand and why they were persecuted for it. The power politics between church and nobility/state began with the clan leader and the local shaman. The history of European Church-Ruling Body leads me to think that America was founded as a Counter Culture. More of a statement against what they saw as corrupt and wrong with European political and religious landscape. Can counter culture be founded upon something or are it governing principles dictated by what it is reacting against?
lori

 

[Natty]

I don't look at America strictly as a "Christian Nation." The founding fathers wanted to keep church and state separate, to keep a balanced government. When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Deceleration of Independence with the assistance of John Adams, two of the philosophers work that they used in the important document was Thomas Hobbs and John Locke. Both Hobbs and Locke denied God existed. About twenty percent of America are Christians. Another twenty percent don't believe in God. The other religions are split up among the remaining sixty percent. Christianity may appear as the main religion due to politics, but, it really is not.

 

[Archangel M]

Actually the founding fathers wanted to keep the federal gvt out of religion. Bact then the idea of the federal gvt was somewhat different than what we have today. That was the basis of the Civil War...

 

[jarrod]

hmmm....that might not be so far from the truth....Western mores might be based on Jewish mores, or perhaps Roman based with Christian hence Jewish mores.

Perhaps the historians on the board might be able to tell us whether Western law is more influenced by Roman law, or Roman law which was incorporated into Christianity, or perhaps Jewish laws which influenced Roman laws through adoption of Christianity as the state religion by Constantine.

I really don't know, I would be interested to find out though. Anyone?

historically, we have by & large inhereted the greco-roman legal tradition, heavily influenced by ideas about natural law such as put forth by philosophers like john locke.

but it's worth noting that while mores change from culture to culture, the fundamentals of morality are almost universal. meaning no society is going to permit behavior that is largely anti-social. the big crimes like murder & theft are prohibited in every society, although the definitions & punishments change.

constantine's adoption of christianity really raised a whole lot of issues that christianity was not intended to address. for example, there is matthew 23:33-36, which predicts the end of times to be witnessed by the generation to whom jesus was currently preaching. with such a short term vision, primitive christianity was not really concerned with long-range government planning, or even involvement really. the failure of the end of times to occur coupled with constantine's legitimization of christianity forced the religion to change from its original form.

so i think it may be more accurate to say that roman society shaped christianity rather than vice versa.

jf

 

[jarrod]

We have got to be a Christian nation, or else why is there a big push to take God out of everything. As it stands now, we are only half what we use to be, as a nation. Some one, or some thing, is working very hard to diminish this even further. It is up to each individual to turn his face toward God, then the national will be healed. Sorry about the soap box, but you did ask. J

actually many goverment references to god were added well after america's founding. "in god we trust" wasn't printed on money until the civil war, when religious sentiment was at it's highest so far in our history. the motto began appearing on some coins during that time, but wasn't added to paper money until 1957.

likewise the pledge of allegiance did not include the phrase "under god" until 1954 when the knights of colombus lobbied for it's inclusion. so the present push for removal of religious references from public life aren't a reaction against the ideals of the founding fathers, but a reaction against 19th century revivalism.

jf

 

[teekin]

historically, we have by & large inhereted the greco-roman legal tradition, heavily influenced by ideas about natural law such as put forth by philosophers like john locke.

but it's worth noting that while mores change from culture to culture, the fundamentals of morality are almost universal. meaning no society is going to permit behavior that is largely anti-social. the big crimes like murder & theft are prohibited in every society, although the definitions & punishments change.

constantine's adoption of christianity really raised a whole lot of issues that christianity was not intended to address. for example, there is matthew 23:33-36, which predicts the end of times to be witnessed by the generation to whom jesus was currently preaching. with such a short term vision, primitive christianity was not really concerned with long-range government planning, or even involvement really. the failure of the end of times to occur coupled with constantine's legitimization of christianity forced the religion to change from its original form.

so i think it may be more accurate to say that roman society shaped christianity rather than vice versa.

jf

I think In the beginning this is very true but as the church and state became intertwined it was they,the church and state who shaped society. More so the Church as that was whom had intimate and immediate contact with the people. And then " who will rid me of this meddlesome priest" heads rolled, Abbeys burned and the king once again had control. This was the Nobility's contribution to the Reformation.
This translates nicely into the people having control in a democracy. GW babbling on about God and aligning church and state is going backwards.
This is way way off topic Jarrod.
lori