What IS racism?

[elder999]

Whilst the picture painted above is a terrible one, it's not that much more terrible than the conditions and abject poverty of the Victorian working classes (the disgraceful and dehumanising 'stud' aspects being left aside). Plus, as I've said many times, almost everyone over here on Blighty, who is not a member of the aristocracy, is descended from slaves at some point in their family tree.

Oh. I didn't know that there were no class divisions in England, and that you never make assumptions or inferences about people and their socioeconomic level, parentage or education based on their accents.

That background buys no special privileges in my eyes. But I do understand how, as it is not all that long ago, the underlying values of personal worthlessness have a part in shaping the life choices of some who elect to choose to take that mantle of victim and use it to excuse all that they do.

Sadly, making such choices just perpetuates the problems we've been discussing.

It's important to point out that the while black unemployment over here is higher than it is for the rest of the country, the majority of blacks are still employed. And, that while poverty and crime rates are proportionally higher, the majority are not at or below the poverty level, and are not engaged in criminal activity. Indeed, most of black America is working pretty hard-extra hard, along with the burden of misperceptions.

Which leads to a whole "which problems that we've been discussing?" question...:lfao:

Or an individual asian must have greater scholastic achievement. .

1981. Had to take a challenge exam to get a spot in a computer science class. 12 spots, with about 15 Asians and me in the room early. Watched a whole parade of white guys walk in, scope out who was there to take the test, and walk out without even bothering to take it-talking to some of them later, they figured the Asians had a lock on the spots.

Dumbasses. :lfao:

 

[Empty Hands]

Whilst the picture painted above is a terrible one, it's not that much more terrible than the conditions and abject poverty of the Victorian working classes (the disgraceful and dehumanising 'stud' aspects being left aside).

Victorian workers were not property. They couldn't be raped, whipped, castrated, amputated or otherwise mutilated at their owner's whim. Their children could not be sold away from them. If they left their job, it was not a national law that they must be captured and brought back to work. Really, there is no comparison.

What is the point of even saying it? You think some people today use slavery as an excuse, so your response is to minimize the magnitude of this historic crime? Don't go down this road. It can lead good people to ugly places.

 

[elder999]

This is racist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-14820797

And I don't mean putting a golliwog in your window.

So, I had to look up "golliwog":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg
Seriously?????!!! A little black Sambo doll, and she's surprised people are upset?

The "Golliwogg" (later "Golliwog", "golly doll") was a character in children's books in the late 19th century and depicted as a type of rag doll. It was reproduced, both by commercial and hobby toy-makers as a children's toy called the "golliwog", and had great popularity in North America, the United Kingdom, Europe and Australia, into the 1960s. The doll has black skin, eyes rimmed in white, clown lips, and frizzy hair, and it has been described as the least known of the major anti-black caricatures in the United States.[SUP][1][/SUP] While home-made golliwogs were sometimes female, the golliwog was generally male. For this reason, in the period following World War II, the golliwog was seen, along with the teddy bear, as a suitable soft toy for a young boy.
The image of the doll has become the subject of heated debate. One aspect of the debate in its favour argues that it should be preserved and passed on as a cherished cultural artifact and childhood tradition. At the same time, many argue that the golliwog is a destructive instance of racism against people of African descent, along with pickaninnies, minstrels, mammy figures, and other caricatures
What kind of future are we setting ourselves up for if we don't curb this PC BS soon. Even if the old lady did mean it in a racist fashion I do not care - people need to stop being so frikking precious about their 'ethnic' roots.

On the one hand, I live in a country where people have the right to have a golliwog on display in their home, or a Confederate flag, or a burning cross.

Odds are good you'll find all three at the same place sometimes.

And, I live in a country where-no matter what you think of our current wars, politically-young men and women of all "races,creeds and colors" have volunteered and sworn to defend "the Constitution, against all enemies-foreign and domestic," and are dying so that people can fly their Confederate flag or burn their cross.

That lady, though, doesn't live under the Constitution. She lives in your land, a land of its own laws, and she can be prosecuted under those laws, and so she should.

Whether such laws should exist in the first place, or exist in the form they are in, in a free society, is another story.

As for the doll, it's some seriously offensive, 19th century ********. To think otherwise is to miss the point: it's got nothing to do with people "being precious over their freakin ethnic heritage." In fact, it has nothing to do with anyone's ethnic heritage at all, and everything to do with centuries' long insult and ridicule.

 

[granfire]

Victorian workers were not property. They couldn't be raped, whipped, castrated, amputated or otherwise mutilated at their owner's whim. Their children could not be sold away from them. If they left their job, it was not a national law that they must be captured and brought back to work. Really, there is no comparison.

What is the point of even saying it? You think some people today use slavery as an excuse, so your response is to minimize the magnitude of this historic crime? Don't go down this road. It can lead good people to ugly places.

Ah, darling, they might not have been property....

but at that time it was certainly custom for the gents of the house hold to require 'after hour services' from the maids. matter of fact, at one time I remember reading about troops being housed in private homes during times of manuvers, etc, that the ladies of the family, wife and daughters, were not to be bothered, but the servants were fair game...yiekes.
Can't sell'em, but certainly to the other things with them...naturally the matter of law, o rather justice being that it seemed to have been slanted in favor of the haves.

Certainly the poor in Victorian times had a crappy life. Not sure how much it mattered being 'free'...

 

[granfire]

So, I had to look up "golliwog":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg
Seriously?????!!! A little black Sambo doll, and she's surprised people are upset?



On the one hand, I live in a country where people have the right to have a golliwog on display in their home, or a Confederate flag, or a burning cross.

Odds are good you'll find all three at the same place sometimes.

And, I live in a country where-no matter what you think of our current wars, politically-young men and women of all "races,creeds and colors" have volunteered and sworn to defend "the Constitution, against all enemies-foreign and domestic," and are dying so that people can fly their Confederate flag or burn their cross.

That lady, though, doesn't live under the Constitution. She lives in your land, a land of its own laws, and she can be prosecuted under those laws, and so she should.

Whether such laws should exist in the first place, or exist in the form they are in, in a free society, is another story.

As for the doll, it's some seriously offensive, 19th century ********. To think otherwise is to miss the point: it's got nothing to do with people "being precious over their freakin ethnic heritage." In fact, it has nothing to do with anyone's ethnic heritage at all, and everything to do with centuries' long insult and ridicule.

Quick, your thoughts.

 

[cdunn]

So, today's craziness from my life. I went to the gym today-today was what I call a "mini brick" day: I had a light weight workout and a brief stint on the treadmill, and swim for the majority of my workout. I swam about two miles-that's 70 times back and forth in a 25 meter pool, the essence of drudgery for some, but quite relaxing for me. At the end of my miles, I finished by swimming three lengths of the pool underwater, on (for clarification, not bragging) one breath. I finished up with a steam and a soak in the jacuzzi.....where I got into a rather long conversation with a couple of other people, marveling at my underwater swimming and asking for tips on swimming in general. We talked a little about stroke efficiency, and then the subject came to race-and how one person there thought black people couldn't swim well because of their higher muscle-density,and typically didn't swim because they didn't live near pools-the conversation remained pleasant and convivial,with my usual joke:Yeah, they were all out of "run fast" the day I was born, so I got "swims like a fish" :lfao: It raised another point, though: TwinFist mentioned sickle cell, and I've mentioned Jimmy the Greek, who famously got fired from television for his drunken-but truthful!-assessment of black athletecism (see above).

Is it "racist" to discuss racial differences like these? One can certainly see how the sickle-cell discussion, especially in the U.S. (12% of "African-Americans" carry the trait) really isn't, any more than a discussion of lactose intolerance, or Tibetan's adaptation to high altitude, though such discussions are racial. What about Jimmy the Greek, though, and his observations about slave history including selective breeding? Some find it offensive to mention any inheritance, genetic or otherwise, from slavery. And black athleticism is pretty much an unspoken of given, in some quarters. Some things, like that whole "run fast" thing, are explained by science, and can pretty much come down to phenotypic differences-I don't think the world record for the 100m has been held by anyone but black men for all of my life. Others, though, are clearly cultural, stereotypical, or mythical.

Another issue here is that 'race' is a very, very, very poor substitute for the true lines of heredity and phenotype. Because of the particulars of human evolution and migration, it is not incorrect to state that the potential for genetic diversity between two lines of Africans may be greater than the entire genetic difference across the entirety of 'native' Europe, despite the fact that both have dark skin. By and large, though, when it comes to daily life, a lot of human genetic diversity is neutral - it doesn't matter.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whether such laws should exist in the first place, or exist in the form they are in, in a free society, is another story.

Exactly.

As for the doll, it's some seriously offensive, 19th century ********. To think otherwise is to miss the point: it's got nothing to do with people "being precious over their freakin ethnic heritage." In fact, it has nothing to do with anyone's ethnic heritage at all, and everything to do with centuries' long insult and ridicule.

Can't say as I agree but I'm clearly an evil Nazi not fit to live in the modern world, where the only people whose views don't matter to the "Right On" brigade are wicked citizens of ex-Colonial powers (well the poor ones at least, the rich ones still do alright).

Raging about Golliwogs is much more about the appropriation and misappropriation of symbols than anything else but not wanting a slanging match over a medium as ephemeral as this, to keep the peace I'll shush.

With that I shall have to say "Bye" as this is straying into territory that makes me shake my head and makes me wonder if the race will ever grow beyond using 'race' to lash each other with (or ourselves in some cases when self-loathing/guilt overcomes common sense).

Speaking of which, I'm off to find out if I still have any Robertsons Jam Golliwog Musician miniatures to sell to the BNP for use in racial harassment campaigns .


P.S.

Just to end on an explanatory note, rather than one that sounds all too grumpy {}, it is my opinion that everybody is racist; we're genetically predisposed to be so.

How we handle it in our dealings with each other is what matters - social evolution over-powering biological evolution is the way for us to go. That is the road that leads us to stable diversity where, over time, people note each others 'roots' but those roots don't impinge on anyones interactions. I think I've said before in similar threads that a society is a rope woven from the different races and cultures that are available. If the rope is to be useful and long-lived then the strands must bind together well or it will all unravel, with predictably poor consequences.

 

[Sukerkin]

Victorian workers were not property. They couldn't be raped, whipped, castrated, amputated or otherwise mutilated at their owner's whim. Their children could not be sold away from them. If they left their job, it was not a national law that they must be captured and brought back to work. Really, there is no comparison.

EH, conditions in Victorian Britain for the poor were much worse than the Dickensian depictions that most people bear in the backs of their minds. Regardless, the point I was making was not that there was an equivalence but that the differences in conditions were less gargantuan than you might imagine.

What is the point of even saying it? You think some people today use slavery as an excuse, so your response is to minimize the magnitude of this historic crime? Don't go down this road. It can lead good people to ugly places.

Not quite the point I was making. Aye, people do use it as an excuse but, nay, I was not attempting to minimise it. It is noteworthy to just point out that it was not unique to Black Americans to have such a period in their history. The difference, such as it is, is that that period is much, much closer in generational terms than for the rest of us.

If I attempted to use multi-generational enslavement of my ancestors for millenia to excuse some behaviour or chip-on-the-shoulder attitude, how much sympathy do you think I would get?

Anyhow, enough of this malarkey. As expected the thread has headed in a specific direction, despite best efforts not to.

Time to leave it be.

 

[Sukerkin]

Missed this one ... apologies for one last post when I said I was off due to my utterly failing to make my point without sounding like a complete xenophobic fascist {:blush:}

Oh. I didn't know that there were no class divisions in England, and that you never make assumptions or inferences about people and their socioeconomic level, parentage or education based on their accents.

:chuckles: Guilty as charged ... ALL the time ... I even tell my missus off when she slips into her 'Common Fishwife' mode of speach and some more. I'm from a dirt poor working class scum background so I have ideas above my station .

It's important to point out that the while black unemployment over here is higher than it is for the rest of the country, the majority of blacks are still employed. And, that while poverty and crime rates are proportionally higher, the majority are not at or below the poverty level, and are not engaged in criminal activity. Indeed, most of black America is working pretty hard-extra hard, along with the burden of misperceptions.

Which leads to a whole "which problems that we've been discussing?" question...:lfao:

Very important point and one that we all too frequently forget no matter how many times it is injected into the stream of conversation. The 'problems' I referred to were to do with a sense of cultural entitlement that Angel brought up a question about rather than anything else.

1981. Had to take a challenge exam to get a spot in a computer science class. 12 spots, with about 15 Asians and me in the room early. Watched a whole parade of white guys walk in, scope out who was there to take the test, and walk out without even bothering to take it-talking to some of them later, they figured the Asians had a lock on the spots.

Dumbasses. :lfao:

Indeed :nods:.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A recent racist episode...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-09-06/...katt-williams-pledge-allegiance?_s=PM:OPINION

Williams started a riff about what he tells his "Mexican friends" and singled out as his foil a Hispanic-looking man in the audience. He asked the man, "Are you Mexican?" He was. Then Williams zeroed in for the kill, scolding the man in an expletive-laden barrage that included "This ain't Mexico" and people can't "live in this country and pledge allegiance to another country" and "If you love Mexico (expletive), get the (expletive) over there."

The crowd cheered.

Then, Williams took cover by referring to the African-American experience, saying: "We were slaves (expletive), you just all work like that as the landscapers." Finally, as the bit was winding down, he made another racist and stereotypical crack about the Mexican guy having a "rusty knife that his tia (aunt) gave him" and a ".22 he got at his quinceanera."

The crowd cheered some more.

 

[elder999]

Whilst the picture painted above is a terrible one, it's not that much more terrible than the conditions and abject poverty of the Victorian working classes (the disgraceful and dehumanising 'stud' aspects being left aside). Plus, as I've said many times, almost everyone over here on Blighty, who is not a member of the aristocracy, is descended from slaves at some point in their family tree.

That background buys no special privileges in my eyes. But I do understand how, as it is not all that long ago, the underlying values of personal worthlessness have a part in shaping the life choices of some who elect to choose to take that mantle of victim and use it to excuse all that they do.

Sadly, making such choices just perpetuates the problems we've been discussing.

I don't offer it as an "excuse." Some things are inexcusable-others not so much.

The history of American slavery-a somewhat unique and recent institution, and not one to be poo-poohed away with comparisons to suffering poor or slave ancestors of more than 40 generations ago-isn't being offered as an excuse, but as a reason.

Hell, most people are completely unaware of the historic roots of much of their behavior. Others had ancestors who chose to behave otherwise, and so passed on more positive behavior traits-the child of slaves who didn't know his father, and was separated from his mother, and was freed to raise the family he'd always desired, and pass on the importance of that to his own children, is just one example of this.

Can't say as I agree but I'm clearly an evil Nazi not fit to live in the modern world, where the only people whose views don't matter to the "Right On" brigade are wicked citizens of ex-Colonial powers (well the poor ones at least, the rich ones still do alright).

Raging about Golliwogs is much more about the appropriation and misappropriation of symbols than anything else but not wanting a slanging match over a medium as ephemeral as this, to keep the peace I'll shush.

With that I shall have to say "Bye" as this is straying into territory that makes me shake my head and makes me wonder if the race will ever grow beyond using 'race' to lash each other with (or ourselves in some cases when self-loathing/guilt overcomes common sense).

Speaking of which, I'm off to find out if I still have any Robertsons Jam Golliwog Musician miniatures to sell to the BNP for use in racial harassment campaigns ..

Well, no,sorry, it's not.

Marc, with all due respect,I enjoy your posts and share many of your opinions, but on this we disagree-and I don't think your a fascist or BNP member. I do think that you have a kind of cultural blindness to how harmful and hurtful racial imagery like this has been.

I get that. When I was a kid, my dad and I loved to watch the Little Rascals and Our Gang shorts , which, in their early years especially, were full of racial imagery-though, to be fair, the black kids got just as much screen time, their characters were viewed as equals by the other characters, and they were often depicted as being rather clever. Mostly, I'd have to say that for their time, 1924-1944, the Little Rascals were the very opposite of racist. Some of the ways that blacks were portrayed in media at the time, though, followed stereotypes that can only be viewed as extremely racist. Consequently, when I last saw them on television (and, when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, they were on TV all the time) in th 80's, a lot of "racist content" was edited out. To me, the idea that I'd be offended by that content and needed to be protected by its removal was far more offensive and insulting than the actual content ever was.

I can also remember my mother lamenting the removal of Little Black Sambo from school shelves. It was a good story, and Sambo wasn't "black"-unless, of course, you were a British woman writing it, or a someone from Britain reading it in 1899.

And while I'll rail against the American Indian imagery still used by some sports teams here-I really think the Washington Redskins need to change their name, but that's me-I dated a Jicarilla Apache woman who almost never took off her Cleveland Indians ball cap, with Chief Wahoo....

Of course, I've posted about these things before (though I can't seem to find it) as well as the Confederate Flag. If someone wants to display a Confederate Flag, I am going to think about why, and wonder what it means to them, but I'm not going to be offended by the object itself. Likewise, I get it, if someone wants their kid to have a "golly," because they had one, and their grandparents had one, who am I to object? In this country, at least, they still have that right, if they can find one.

Consider this, though, Marc: All of my grandparents went to college;how many white people of my generation can say that? My branch of the family have been free men in this country since-well, since the mid 1740s, well before it was this country. I started and sold my own company on a lark. I have degrees in religious studies and education, and advanced degrees in engineering and physics. I've published poems, and short stories, written and performed my own songs. I can play about a half-dozen musical instruments, and get around in about as many languages. I studied martial arts in Japan.I've traveled around the world. I nearly summitted Mt. Everest. I've been called a world class sailor, and was once considered as helmsman for the America's Cup. I've raised two wonderful capable children to responsible adulthood.

In spite of all that, your innocent symbol serves as a reminder that there are some people out there who will reduce me to nothing more than that "symbol." To them, I'm none of those things-author, engineer, singer and father.

I'm just a golliwog.

A recent racist episode...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-09-06/...katt-williams-pledge-allegiance?_s=PM:OPINION

Indeed.

Katt Williams-with his "pimpin'" schtick (see what I did there? :lfao-is exemplary of some of the things that are just wrong with black culture, no matter how many positive messages he may have-I really don't know, because I don't find him funny.

In fact, he and most of his ilk just make me miss Richard Pryor.....

 

[Empty Hands]

Consider this, though, Marc: All of my grandparents went to college;how many white people of my generation can say that? My branch of the family have been free men in this country since-well, since the mid 1740s, well before it was this country. I started and sold my own company on a lark. I have degrees in religious studies and education, and advanced degrees in engineering and physics. I've published poems, and short stories, written and performed my own songs. I can play about a half-dozen musical instruments, and get around in about as many languages. I studied martial arts in Japan.I've traveled around the world. I nearly summitted Mt. Everest. I've been called a world class sailor, and was once considered as helmsman for the America's Cup. I've raised two wonderful capable children to responsible adulthood.

Sheesh, thanks for making me feel like a failure!

 

[Twin Fist]

wasnt there a sambo's restaurant in the US in the 70's? if i recall, the kid was from india

oh, Jeff?

your last post was good reading, i enjoyed it.

 

[elder999]

Sheesh, thanks for making me feel like a failure!

Sorry, that wasn't my intention.

It's funny when you consider all the things I can't talk about, though......:lfao:

wasnt there a sambo's restaurant in the US in the 70's? if i recall, the kid was from india

oh, Jeff?

your last post was good reading, i enjoyed it.

THe name was taken from the names of the owners, but it used imagery from the story as a motif. The chain ultimately failed for a variety of decisions, including pressure from people offended by the name.

The original Sambo's is still open, and owned by one of the original owners grandsons.

 

[Twin Fist]

it was like adenny's or somethig wasnt it?

too many people think they have the right to never be offended...

 

[elder999]

it was like adenny's or somethig wasnt it?

too many people think they have the right to never be offended...

Nah, I don't think it was anything like Denny's at all.:lfao:

I like Denny's for breakfast, on occasion (as in, there's nothing else available). Nice T-Bone 'n eggs plate, for the price.

 

[Twin Fist]

i am on denny's side on that one, sorry

 

[elder999]

i am on denny's side on that one, sorry

Well, and based on the facts, that's pretty racist right there.

no need to apologize.
EDIT: though I'd like to know how it isn't racist.

 

[Twin Fist]

what are you referring to? denny's alleged policy? or my support of it?

 

[elder999]

what are you referring to? denny's alleged policy?

I don't think it was a "Denny's policy," so much as systemic behavior by various franchisees.

I don't think they had any problems with Denny's in NY.

But if there was a "policy" it was racist, so yeah.

or my support of it?

I wonder how one can support a racist policy and not be racist themselves. Just sayin'.