LDS Church and Racism

[Ray]

That wouldn't have been Ezekiel 25:17, would it?

It wasn't that one. But I was stunned when I came across it, I can understand sometimes translations differ in wording but not usually in meaning. Sometimes the meaning may even be a little different, but still convey the same idea. I wish I could remember exactly what & where, but it serves (for me) a reason to get as close as I can to the source on anything (religious or otherwise).

Since I've never been other than white and I've had a different experience than some, I may not see the same things as racist that other see as racist. If I judge another culture (or maybe another era) I might be considered ethnocentric if I judge them according to my standards. Lastly, growing up white in a mostly Hispanic area there were a few incidents where I was assaulted and insulted only because I was white; but I wrote that off to "stupidity" (of course because "to know me is to love me").

 

[elder999]

. Lastly, growing up white in a mostly Hispanic area there were a few incidents where I was assaulted and insulted only because I was white; but I wrote that off to "stupidity" (of course because "to know me is to love me").

Well, it was racist, Ray.......which is stupid.

 

[Ray]

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQRace.shtml

Jeff Lindsay has maintained a web-site for a while. Give his page on race a read.

 

[Ceicei]

I apologize for my absence the past week as I've had a string of illnesses run through my family (I won't bore you with the details).

However, I am genuinely pleased with how the progress of this thread went. It didn't degenerate, there were no flaming, no overt pot-shots. People remained civil. Well done.

Anyway, here is a verse that was spoken of by the Lord to the Prophet Jacob from the Book of Mormon (approximately 544 B.C. - 421 B.C.) The Nephites (light skinned group) weren't being very nice to the Lamanites (dark skinned group). In fact, it was during the time when the Nephites were not being very obedient to God:

Jacob Chapter 3 verses 9-10

9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.

10 Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day.

It is well known that parents are obligated in scriptures to teach their children how to behave the way they should and to learn the ways of God. Apparently, they were amiss with their duties of this important charge. It is by the example of parents that children learn, and how they learn often lead to how they treat others.

This makes me think of how long it took for racism in the United States to finally be recognized and action taken (1960's - 1970's). Even then, there are still pockets in various places where long held beliefs of people and their approach to others that differ still linger. Changing attitudes is taking an extremely long time. I wonder if racism, or any -ism for that matter, would ever be eradicated. Probably not, if ever, but I am glad though, that we have made much progress to the point where, for the most part, people can go to places and do things that allow people of different races to mingle.

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

This makes me think of how long it took for racism in the United States to finally be recognized and action taken (1960's - 1970's). Even then, there are still pockets in various places where long held beliefs of people and their approach to others that differ still linger. Changing attitudes is taking an extremely long time. I wonder if racism, or any -ism for that matter, would ever be eradicated. Probably not, if ever, but I am glad though, that we have made much progress to the point where, for the most part, people can go to places and do things that allow people of different races to mingle.

- Ceicei

I think racism was recognized much sooner than that but definitely action on a wide-spread society scale didn't occur until those decades mentioned. Only here and there did white individuals look beyond a persons skin color and take them for who they were... people. Sadly these were the few.
Yet when you think about it... wasn't the Civil War basically a war against racism? I mean yes, to free slaves and to prevent the separation of these United States but am thinking that freeing the slaves were more of a dig to the slave-owners of the day. Even up north in the Union States slavery was common until the latter days of the war. True it probably wasn't a horrific scene as more commonly played out in the deep south but still slavery none-the-less.
Was it really because we were enslaving and being cruel to blacks or to our fellow man? If that is the case then why did the same union which fought for the freedom of blacks were so cruel and performing acts of genocide on the native americans? Almost hypocritical you might say.
Though bills and laws were passed it still took several more decades to finally enforce them enough to make people realize how wrong the attitude carried over from the past really was. Racist attitudes still prevail here and there but it's fading, thankfully fading quickly.

You're absolutely right (IMO) that it is up to the parents to help their children see past the color barrier. To help them realize that people are people no matter their exterior.
I hope the generation next will be even better, and it keeps improving.

 

[DustinJolley]

Excuse me, elder999, but Donnie and Marie weren't raised to be racist. That's kind of a stupid thing to say. And I should know because I'm a Mormon and I'm not racist at all.

 

[elder999]

Excuse me, elder999, but Donnie and Marie weren't raised to be racist. That's kind of a stupid thing to say. And I should know because I'm a Mormon and I'm not racist at all.

Not stupid at all-it was deliberately provocative, inciteful (as opposed to "insightful") inflammatory and somewhat sarcastic. And I'm sure you're not a racist at all, and a good Mormon-though you've only been one since seven years after the doctrine towards "dark-skinned" people changed.

I don't know Donny and Marie-do you? (Again-sarcastic....I'm sure they're "not racist" either.)

 

[newGuy12]

Living back here in the south, I'm still seeing (self) segregated churches among the (various) Baptists, and other denominations. I attended one service of the church that my parents attend, not a single member wasn't white. I have not returned since. But only a few blocks away is another church that seems to have a dominate black membership. What does THAT say?

When I was a child, I went to a Southern Baptist church, and we had only one black family in the whole church. Their son was my age, he was in the same Sunday School class that I was in.

I think that there are still "black churches" and "white churches" in my city. They are even referred to as such -- I cannot think of any of the names of the churches -- I do not attend now. People will go down the road in a car and make a remark such as "There is such and such a church, it is a black church".

Now, mind you, if a white person ends up going to a black church, or if a black person ends up going to a white church, no one will run them out. No one will say, "You, get out of our church, you are black/white."

From time to time there are goings - on, some kinds of get - togethers where more than one church will combine and have some kind of cook-out or some such thing, and everyone gets along, too.

Of course, what I say is just what I observe. I have not taken measurements of this, or studied it.

One more thing -- Ed Parker was a Mormon, so because of his giving us the Kenpo, we should have good respect for Mormons.

 

[Empty Hands]

Ed Parker was a Mormon, so because of his giving us the Kenpo, we should have good respect for Mormons.

Unless Mormonism directly inspired his kenpo somehow, I would say the two are irrelevant and unrelated to each other.

 

[newGuy12]

There used to be a church on tv -- late night on tv. The preacher was a black guy. I cannot think of his name right now. I happened upon this show one night. He was a great preacher, believe me! I was freaking in tears, I kid you not.

I watched him a couple times -- made a point of it -- this was years ago, though! Everyone in that whole place was black. By the end of it, I felt very good, I thought to myself -- man, that is one happy church, there!

The preacher made you feel good when you listened!

Come to find out -- this church is on the corner of 32nd ST and Southern AVE in my city -- and this is the freaking most dangerous place in my city! No joke! It is a very bad neighborhood! You can get shot or get your head busted down there, but yet, in my estimation, they have the best preacher of the whole city. This guy could give Billy Graham a run for the money!

 

[newGuy12]

Unless Mormonism directly inspired his kenpo somehow, I would say the two are irrelevant and unrelated to each other.

I have been told that when the Kenpo Student ties the belt on the side of the uniform, rather than in the front (by the center of mass), that this is a "Morman thing".

And, yes, I know that the CMA students tie their belts on the side, but I was told that the reason that Kenpo Students do it is because of an influence of the Morman Church. Whether this is true, I cannot totally say.

 

[MA-Caver]

I have been told that when the Kenpo Student ties the belt on the side of the uniform, rather than in the front (by the center of mass), that this is a "Morman thing".

And, yes, I know that the CMA students tie their belts on the side, but I was told that the reason that Kenpo Students do it is because of an influence of the Morman Church. Whether this is true, I cannot totally say.

Of the Kenpo's I've seen in Utah... it isn't true. This includes Ed Parker Jr. when he gave a seminar there once.

 

[Twin Fist]

Al Tracy is the one that spread the story about kenpo students under BB level's belt knots being on the left or right (depending on gender)being a Morman thing

I dont know, and i will not call Al Tracy a liar, but when it comes to ANYTHING about what Ed Parker supposedly did or didnt do, I try to take everything with a grain of salt.

 

[Ray]

I have been told that when the Kenpo Student ties the belt on the side of the uniform, rather than in the front (by the center of mass), that this is a "Morman thing".

And, yes, I know that the CMA students tie their belts on the side, but I was told that the reason that Kenpo Students do it is because of an influence of the Morman Church. Whether this is true, I cannot totally say.

Stop by a Mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and you'll notice that people who do wear belts (to hold up their pants) all wear them like everyone else does. I've seen some at various Sunday services who wore (gasp) suspenders!

Having had associations with the "Mormon" church all of my life (I'm 50), having been in leadership positions and even having been to the temple several times (and actually more than one temple), I can tell you that you'll find nothing of kenpo in church and visa versa (except for those of us who happen to practice kenpo and actually be Mormons).

Those who wish to find "co-incidental similarities" can probably do so. But realistically...not.

However, we do preach about Jesus Christ quite a bit. And faith, repentance, baptism and good works. We're taught to respect the beliefs of others. There is a whole bunch of things that we do that are similar to other Christian denominations...

When I lived in Twin Falls, Idaho (a largely LDS place), I found a man who was teaching kenpo in his church --- he wasn't LDS, but he thought kenpo would be a great way to bring the youth and their parents into more activity in that church. I went and did what I could to help the guy with his kenpo, he was learning via Sasaki's video program.

 

[Ceicei]

I have been told that when the Kenpo Student ties the belt on the side of the uniform, rather than in the front (by the center of mass), that this is a "Morman thing".

And, yes, I know that the CMA students tie their belts on the side, but I was told that the reason that Kenpo Students do it is because of an influence of the Morman Church. Whether this is true, I cannot totally say.

Well, I guess we'll have to be disappointed if that was supposed to a "Mormon thing". FYI, it isn't.

I've trained in six different Kenpo schools and under some instructors who are LDS and some who aren't. We all wore our belts knotted in the front and frankly speaking, couldn't really distinguish which religion any of the kenpo students/instructors belonged just by looking. None of us cared which religion any of us belonged and that wasn't necessary for our training.

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

Interestingly Ceicei-and thanks for your thoughtful and interesting reply-it’s long been my opinioin that these verses have been misinterpreted and misused for a long time. If we look to the Hebrew (and I’ll avoid going into what a lousy translation the KJV actually is, in this case it actually is correct) the word used for mark is 'owth, which means, well, “mark.” It is used in scripture variously to mean-sign, omen, portent, circumcision, and the rainbow after the flood.

In any case, it might seem odd to some that what we know to have been commonplace in the Middle East throughout history was chosen to set people apart, if one thinks of “Cain” as the father of a nation, rather than an allegory for the nation itself. I’ve heard people teach that the mark of Cain was red hair. This was in the Ethiopian Coptic church, which is actually thought of by religious scholars as the longest extant Christian sect. Red hair appears occasionally in Africans, and is pretty unusual and distinctive when it does. The Jews teach that it may have been a letter, but that no one knows. Somehow, Cain was linked to dark skin, and to Ham, and Ham to Africans-and this verse, and others have been used to justify racism and slavery.

I'll have to agree with you the scriptures didn't give much explanation what Cain's mark meant. It could be a skin coloring, hair coloring, or something else.

I don’t really have time right now, but I would like to respond to the other replies, excellent and otherwise-especially Ray’s, which raised some interesting philosophical questions for me. In the meantime, I’d like to ask you both if you have any personal experience with African-American members of your church, and what that was like.

There weren't very many African-American LDS members while I grew up in New Mexico. I do remember two families becoming baptized into the LDS church and participating within my ward (congregation). That was in the early 1980's. I didn't ask them how or why they were converted and since I had no interpreters, if they did share their stories, I missed out on that. They were really cool families though.

Where I currently am living, we have African-American LDS in my Deaf Ward. All of those LDS African-Americans who I met in Utah, except for one, were baptized within the past 10 years (late 1990's to 2000's). The one (he wasn't deaf) who was baptized earlier had actually joined before the official declaration about the priesthood in 1978. He is currently serving on the Stake High Council (a stake consists of a few wards). According to him, he said he had many prayers and thoughts about this issue, but always felt good about what he read in the scriptures and when he prayed, and his relationships with others in the ward. It was not an issue that would drive him away from the Church since he had many positive experiences. He also said he knew someday the priesthood would come. The declaration came sooner than he expected and he felt delighted.

- Ceicei

 

[DustinJolley]

Put things in context then, elder999! You shouldn't lump all Mormons in with what past leaders have said or done, just as you shouldn't lump all Muslims in with the terrorists just as Pat Robertson and the "Rev." Bill Keller have done.

 

[elder999]

Having a degree in religious studies, something I do`very year is a religion project of some sort, <snip!>




Of course, they said those things long ago, but I'm finding racist Mormon doctrine all the way through the civil-rights era to 1967-this stuff is truly fascinating! Hard to believe that little Donnie and Marie were raised to be racists.....more to come, if anyone is interested...I'll probably examine the racist doctrine of the early Episcopal Church next, since I was raised Episcopal.....

Is that enough context? It seems to have been for everyone else, including some who ascribed "motive" to my starting the thread-which, btw, I suggest you read in its entirety for more "context." I think you'll find that I went out of my way not to "lump" anyone in with anyone else.

 

[DustinJolley]

Whatever, elder999. But I think if you also examine the history of The Southern Baptist Convention, I think you'll find that there's also a history of racism and bigoty in that religion as well. By the way, for no reason whatsoever, the SBC considers my religion a cult.

 

[Ray]

Whatever, elder999. But I think if you also examine the history of The Southern Baptist Convention, I think you'll find that there's also a history of racism and bigoty in that religion as well. By the way, for no reason whatsoever, the SBC considers my religion a cult.

Bro Dustin, please stop helping.