Ground Fighting

[Buka]

Yeah, I used this video as a prime example for why people would go for a clinch and takedown:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3k1PfjUaq0s

Observe how long that brawl lasted, and the damage to the thug in that video versus the length of the brawl and the damage to the thug in the OP. Big difference.

I've referenced that clip in DT before! In two ways, actually. In how not to get your *** written up and suspended. But more to the point - what should he have done here? Which, of course, is what you said above... take him down and wrap him up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some thoughts ...

If you are in an actual self-defense situation, that means the other guy is the one who got to decide how and when and where to attack. This means that all the discussion of what range you would prefer to fight at is mostly irrelevant. If you didn't succeed in anticipating and avoiding the situation, then the fight will begin in the manner the attacker dictates. This could mean a sucker punch or tackling you to the ground from behind or using weapons or multiple attackers. It probably will not involve a fair fight with a single opponent squaring up in front of you waving his fists. (If it does, then 95% of the time you should be able to walk away.)

What that means is that you should be prepared to deal with the situation you find yourself in: on the ground, standing up, wobbly from a sucker punch, outnumbered, out-armed, whatever.

As far as choosing to go to the ground if you have the opportunity to do so, that's a situational call. I can list a number of scenarios where taking the fight to the ground would be a good idea if you have superior ground-fighting skills. I can list probably more scenarios where it would be a bad idea.

The potential pitfall for BJJ practitioners is failing to prepare for those different scenarios ahead of time. If all your training is focused on getting the fight to the ground and finishing it there, then you are likely to instinctively react that way in a real fight even if it isn't appropriate for the situation at hand. You need to have considered the different possibilities and trained for them before the situation ever arises. I've put my students through scenario training and many of them get the sort of tunnel vision which is useful for winning a match but dangerous in a self-defense situation.

This isn't just a danger for BJJ, of course. I've had stand-up guys get locked into that same mindset where they don't distinguish between the needs of competition and the needs of self-defense survival.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely Tony and very well put!

It is important to have multiple options. You should be able to avoid the situation because you were paying attention and aware. You should be able to run if needed or utilize tools/weapons if warranted. You need the ability to kick, strike with your hands if the situation warrants it or trap and lock for control. You also may need the ability to counter a takedown or initiate a takedown and go the ground if the situation dictates that this would be a good strategy. In the world of self-defense and personal protection there will be no one thing fits all situations. There are just to many variables!

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I'm not dismissing it. I'm pointing out that no martial art really prepares you for multiple attackers or weapons. So to ding Bjj as being weak against multiple attackers or weapons is a bit silly. When you're unarmed and against more than one person, or against an armed person, you're at a disadvantage no matter what you know.

Yes you're at a disadvantage against multiple attackers, yet you're beloved youtube has many clips of one person overcoming the odds and getting the better of the situation against multiple opponents, and all the ones I've seen have done it by staying on their feet, or at least getting back up quickly if they do get taken down.

Is that not proof that some MAs or at least certain training CAN prepare you for multiple opponents?

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

All of that is more based on the fact that street fighting sucks and should be avoided at all costs. Everything you mentioned above can just as easily happen to you if you're trying to stay on your feet, and get knocked down, sucker punched, tackled from behind, whatever.

I'd disagree completely, there's a far higher likelihood of the things I mentioned happening if YOU want to take it to the ground than if you're trying to stay on your feet.

Simples.

 

[drop bear]

I'd disagree completely, there's a far higher likelihood of the things I mentioned happening if YOU want to take it to the ground than if you're trying to stay on your feet.

Simples.

What if I have the numbers advantage. Taking them to the ground nullifies them.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

What if I have the numbers advantage. Taking them to the ground nullifies them.

Then I guess that would be one of the situations Tony & Brian mentioned where it makes sense to do so.

Somewhat unusual for a self defence situation though, no?

 

[Hanzou]

Yes you're at a disadvantage against multiple attackers, yet you're beloved youtube has many clips of one person overcoming the odds and getting the better of the situation against multiple opponents, and all the ones I've seen have done it by staying on their feet, or at least getting back up quickly if they do get taken down.

Is that not proof that some MAs or at least certain training CAN prepare you for multiple opponents?

Nope.

The example you showed for example was a boxer. Boxers never train for multiple opponents. The guy simply had the benefit of fighting in a cone where all of his opposition was coming from the front of him, so he could tag them as they came into range while he backed up. If he had opponents coming from all directions, that situation may have turned out quite different. Boxing doesn't train you to fight multiple opponents, boxing teaches you how to fight so that you can knock people out with punches. If you know how to fight well, there's a good chance you can take more than one untrained moron down.

There's a big difference there, because there's a lot of martial arts out there that DON'T teach you how to fight period.

 

[drop bear]

Then I guess that would be one of the situations Tony & Brian mentioned where it makes sense to do so.

Somewhat unusual for a self defence situation though, no?

No. I have friends.

Really I do.

Don't judge me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can see that you may want to go down like this.

But I can't see any good reason to go down like this.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I think I saw my cat do that as a kitten.

 

[donnaTKD]

wtf is that in the 2nd vid ????? moonwalk on your shoulders ?????

no wonder the other guy looks unimpressed i'd just be kicking hell out of him - i mean there's more than enough to go at and his arms are pinned to the floor for balance - so nice and easy to stand on while you kick hell out of his head

 

[Hanzou]

I can see that you may want to go down like this.

But I can't see any good reason to go down like this.

Sport Bjj is not the same as self defense Bjj.

 

[Steve]

I can see that you may want to go down like this.

But I can't see any good reason to go down like this.

To be clear, you're comparing a technique in the top gif to a strategy in the bottom. Not quite apples and oranges. Dude's not executing any technique here. Rather, he's executing a strategy in a competition based upon a set of rules. The same athlete with the same skills will often look very different based upon the rules. The best will compete in multiple rulesets in order to avoid getting locked in. As an example, I mentioned Josh Barnett earlier. Here's a guy who looks very different when he's in a grappling match, such as Metamoris, or an MMA match, or a submission wrestling match, such as Abu Dabhi.

It's a grappling competition, so the rules are actually the exact opposite of an MMA match. In an MMA match, the guy standing controls the range. If he wants to stand, he can. In a Sub Wrestling match, the guy on the ground controls the range. If he doesn't stand, the guy standing is required to engage or he is "fleeing combat." He'll get warned, then he'll get penalized, and if he continues to refuse to engage, he will be DQd.

Back to the point, though. Here are some questions:

1: Do you think this is the only strategy he ever uses? In other words, do you really think he'd use this same strategy in another context?
2: What do we know about his technique?

 

[Steve]

wtf is that in the 2nd vid ????? moonwalk on your shoulders ?????

no wonder the other guy looks unimpressed i'd just be kicking hell out of him - i mean there's more than enough to go at and his arms are pinned to the floor for balance - so nice and easy to stand on while you kick hell out of his head

LOL. You would not. If you took a swipe at his head, you'd be ejected from the competition, and possibly arrested for assault. What an inappropriate thing to say.

 

[Transk53]

To be clear, you're comparing a technique in the top gif to a strategy in the bottom. Not quite apples and oranges. Dude's not executing any technique here. Rather, he's executing a strategy in a competition based upon a set of rules. The same athlete with the same skills will often look very different based upon the rules. The best will compete in multiple rulesets in order to avoid getting locked in. As an example, I mentioned Josh Barnett earlier. Here's a guy who looks very different when he's in a grappling match, such as Metamoris, or an MMA match, or a submission wrestling match, such as Abu Dabhi.

It's a grappling competition, so the rules are actually the exact opposite of an MMA match. In an MMA match, the guy standing controls the range. If he wants to stand, he can. In a Sub Wrestling match, the guy on the ground controls the range. If he doesn't stand, the guy standing is required to engage or he is "fleeing combat." He'll get warned, then he'll get penalized, and if he continues to refuse to engage, he will be DQd.

Back to the point, though. Here are some questions:

1: Do you think this is the only strategy he ever uses? In other words, do you really think he'd use this same strategy in another context?
2: What do we know about his technique?

That does make sense to me now.

 

[Transk53]

wtf is that in the 2nd vid ????? moonwalk on your shoulders ?????

no wonder the other guy looks unimpressed i'd just be kicking hell out of him - i mean there's more than enough to go at and his arms are pinned to the floor for balance - so nice and easy to stand on while you kick hell out of his head

You are supossed to eat more vegetables, not create them

 

[donnaTKD]

LOL. You would not. If you took a swipe at his head, you'd be ejected from the competition, and possibly arrested for assault. What an inappropriate thing to say.

why is it inappropriate ????? the title of this thread is GROUND FIGHTING so in that context i'd well served by putting him out cold

take a swipe at his head - not my first move - my first move would be a kick to the lower back given how stressed it is already it wouldn't take too much to do serious damage and then let the fun begin

 

[donnaTKD]

You are supossed to eat more vegetables, not create them

yeah well - i'm not into cannibalism just yet so i'll stick to creating them for the time being

 

[Transk53]

why is it inappropriate ????? the title of this thread is GROUND FIGHTING so in that context i'd well served by putting him out cold

take a swipe at his head - not my first move - my first move would be a kick to the lower back given how stressed it is already it wouldn't take too much to do serious damage and then let the fun begin

?