Ground Fighting

[Steve]

I hear you, Hanzou.

The arguments we hear over and over are solid. It's the next step/conclusion that takes a strange turn.

1: Ground fighting is usually a bad idea for self defense.
2: If you are on the ground in a street fight, regaining your feet should usually be your number 1 goal.

To this point, I think everyone here agrees. It's the next thing.

3: So, it's not as important to train as the rest of our curriculum.

That boggles my mind. If being on the ground is tantamount to "suicide," would it not be a critical and integral part of your training? I would think it would be the first and most important part. If I were a student, and my instructor said, "If you end up on the ground, you're dead." I'd be like, "So, why are we training this other stuff?"

 

[Hanzou]

I hear you, Hanzou.

The arguments we hear over and over are solid. It's the next step/conclusion that takes a strange turn.

1: Ground fighting is usually a bad idea for self defense.
2: If you are on the ground in a street fight, regaining your feet should usually be your number 1 goal.

To this point, I think everyone here agrees. It's the next thing.

3: So, it's not as important to train as the rest of our curriculum.

That boggles my mind. If being on the ground is tantamount to "suicide," would it not be a critical and integral part of your training? I would think it would be the first and most important part. If I were a student, and my instructor said, "If you end up on the ground, you're dead." I'd be like, "So, why are we training this other stuff?"

Which is why I showed the video in the OP. Yeah, the guy was an idiot, but beyond that, analyze the actual fight itself;

1. The most damage occurred when both guys hit the ground. If you notice, no one got significantly hurt in the exchange of blows. However once it hit the pavement, the real damage came into play. It went from someone getting a few scrapes to someone possibly getting killed from head blows.

2. The bigger guy instantly had the advantage, and used his weight to dominate.

3. NO ONE came to this guy's aid. NO ONE came to pull this guy off of him when it was clear that the other guy was unconscious. All we hear is ONE GUY telling the bigger guy to stop. Everyone else was getting a Youtube video. The bigger dude relented and finally disengaged. However, if no one else was around, that beatdown would have lasted a lot longer.

Again, its not about me running up to some random meathead and Guard pulling him into closed guard. Its about the meathead tackling me, or swinging at me, or grabbing me and trying to wrestle me down, or pushing me backwards. In all of those situations, I better know what to do when we hit the ground together. ESPECIALLY if he's larger than me. If you don't know what to do, you're going to get seriously hurt, or worse.

 

[mook jong man]

Also , when you do get the mount , remember your head is at the prime height for kicking.
Keep your head on a swivel , do your damage quickly.
No more than three quick strikes , and get back up again fast.
Scan around for anymore attackers.
Tunnel vision is very real and one of the ways to combat it is by getting into the habit of turning your head around all the time while you are doing your techniques.

Warning , this video has a lot of swearing in it.

[video=youtube_share;y70nwuOfY3Y]http://youtu.be/y70nwuOfY3Y[/video]

 

[Hanzou]

Also , when you do get the mount , remember your head is at the prime height for kicking.
Keep your head on a swivel , do your damage quickly.
No more than three quick strikes , and get back up again fast.
Scan around for anymore attackers.
Tunnel vision is very real and one of the ways to combat it is by getting into the habit of turning your head around all the time while you are doing your techniques.

To be fair though he wasn't in the mounted position, he was still between his opponent's legs (i.e. in his opponent's guard, even though he was clearly out of it). If you notice, while he had control over his hands, his body weight is still stretched out over his opponent's body, pretty much laying on top of him as opposed to sitting on top of him.

Look at the picture I showed and the video above. The mount is when you're sitting on your opponent's abdomen or chest. If he had been in mounted position, he would have had more control over his opponent, and probably seen that kick coming.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Multiple opponents and weapons is dangerous regardless of what you practice.

Well done for stating the obvious...

Wouldn't you agree that if you do have multiple opponents you'd be better off being on your feet and knocking them out quickly like this guy?

How well do think he would have fared if he'd taken one of them to the ground?

 

[Argus]

So the bulk of your training is awareness,deescalation and running? And then a bit of hands on bashing people tacked on somewhere?

Nope. But then, I'm not training for self-defense. If I were, I'd be doing something akin to RBSD.

 

[Hanzou]

Well done for stating the obvious...

Wouldn't you agree that if you do have multiple opponents you'd be better off being on your feet and knocking them out quickly like this guy?

Of course. Which is why we learn striking and standing throws in Bjj.

How well do think he would have fared if he'd taken one of them to the ground?

Except a lone defender wouldn't take someone to the ground in a situation like that. In that scenario, you're more likely to be taken to the ground by someone else.

Now tell me, how do you think you'd fare if you get taken to the ground by multiple people, and have no idea what to do when you get there?

 

[Argus]

how clear can this be said? Let's break this down.

1: Going to the ground is a bad idea (ie suicide). We all agree with this.
2: Going to the ground should generally be avoided as a strategy.
3: In most fights outside of competition, we will not know what training our opponent (or multiple opponents) have.

Can we agree that these three things are universally accepted as true? Hanzou, you would agree with these things. Right? Kman? Argus? Anyone disagree?

Okay. Let's move on then. If being on the ground is suicide, wouldn't it be among the MOST IMPORTANT things for you to learn? If you don't train appropriately to improve your position, escape from inferior positions, control your opponent, regain your feet and disengage, are you not essentially committing suicide? And let me be clear, I'm not saying you MUST be a BJJ black belt. But, come on, guys. If you are saying this stuff and aren't AT LEAST a competent BJJ blue belt, you're delusional.

Eh, if we agree, that's great. But that wasn't the impression I was getting from Hanzou's comments:

If the only major pitfalls of ground fighting is that your opponent might have a weapon, or superior numbers, then that's a pretty dominant method of fighting IMO.

 

[mook jong man]

To be fair though he wasn't in the mounted position, he was still between his opponent's legs (i.e. in his opponent's guard, even though he was clearly out of it). If you notice, while he had control over his hands, his body weight is still stretched out over his opponent's body, pretty much laying on top of him as opposed to sitting on top of him.

Look at the picture I showed and the video above. The mount is when you're sitting on your opponent's abdomen or chest. If he had been in mounted position, he would have had more control over his opponent, and probably seen that kick coming.

Yes , my mistake he was in the guard.
But even in the mount , that's a place you still do not want to be spending a lot of time there.
Do damage quickly and get back up.
Under the effects of adrenaline , you tend to see nothing or hear nothing but the opponent, so it is quite likely the kick would still have landed.
Whether he was in the mount or the guard.

Actually he probably would have been safer on the bottom , truth be known.

 

[Steve]

Eh, if we agree, that's great. But that wasn't the impression I was getting from Hanzou's comments:

I think people are misunderstanding each other.


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[Steve]

Yes , my mistake he was in the guard.
But even in the mount , that's a place you still do not want to be spending a lot of time there.
Do damage quickly and get back up.
Under the effects of adrenaline , you tend to see nothing or hear nothing but the opponent, so it is quite likely the kick would still have landed.
Whether he was in the mount or the guard.

Actually he probably would have been safer on the bottom , truth be known.

Strategy is great but if you don't train it, you can't expect to be able to do it.


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[Hong Kong Pooey]

Of course. Which is why we learn striking and standing throws in Bjj.



Except a lone defender wouldn't take someone to the ground in a situation like that. In that scenario, you're more likely to be taken to the ground by someone else.

Now tell me, how do you think you'd fare if you get taken to the ground by multiple people, and have no idea what to do when you get there?

Same as any SD situation if I had no idea what to do!

I'd be looking to get back on my feet asap or it's game over for me. Same as anyone if they're on the ground fighting against several guys.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes , my mistake he was in the guard.

No, he wasn't in guard, he was in his opponent's guard. Ironically he was actually in an inferior position, despite the other guy being stunned. He should have passed his guard and entered a more dominant position.

But even in the mount , that's a place you still do not want to be spending a lot of time there.
Do damage quickly and get back up.
Under the effects of adrenaline , you tend to see nothing or hear nothing but the opponent, so it is quite likely the kick would still have landed.
Whether he was in the mount or the guard.

No argument there. Still, it's easier to see what's going on around you while on your knees than laying on you stomach.

Actually he probably would have been safer on the bottom , truth be known.

His issue was that he had no idea what he was doing, not what position he was in. What's laughable is that people will actually believe that this guy is a Bjj exponent or something silly like that. A Bjj student with a month of Bjj practice would know to pass that guard and either stand up or mount.

 

[drop bear]

Nope. But then, I'm not training for self-defense. If I were, I'd be doing something akin to RBSD.

Who would also not spend the bulk of their time avoiding fighting.

Normally it is a case of "the best thing to do is run away. Now we will spend the next hour learning to kill a man with our bare hands."

 

[drop bear]

That looks brutal. That must some supreme skill not to snap a bone.

I have done a few shoulders here and there. Broken one bone. But I was seriously cranking that arm. Did the arm in a hammerlock.

 

[Hanzou]

Eh, if we agree, that's great. But that wasn't the impression I was getting from Hanzou's comments:

If I said that the only way you can stop Hanzou-Ryu Ninjutsu is either with a gun, or having multiple people attacking me at once, you'd think I was either full of myself, or full of something else entirely.

Yet that's exactly the main argument against Bjj. You basically need a weapon or a posse to take down a Bjj guy.

Talk about an ego booster....

 

[donnaTKD]

No one helps anybody these days do they?
Instead they just get their phones out , start filming and put it up on the Internet as fast as they can.

I think it's time for people to put the bloody camera phones down and start intervening in these things.
The guy was obviously an idiot , but he was already beaten , so why the need to sit on his back and keep hitting him.

no one gets involved cos of the legal situation --

(1) you get involved you're going to jail --
(2) you don't involved you'll prolly still go to jail cos you're an accessory to the fact.

 

[mook jong man]

no one gets involved cos of the legal situation --

(1) you get involved you're going to jail --
(2) you don't involved you'll prolly still go to jail cos you're an accessory to the fact.

Well you could at least use your phone for ringing the police , or an ambulance.
Instead of pretending you are the next Steven Spielberg.

 

[Hanzou]

Same as any SD situation if I had no idea what to do!

I'd be looking to get back on my feet asap or it's game over for me. Same as anyone if they're on the ground fighting against several guys.

Well that's the point; You should know what to do, and there's an art out there that shows you what to do.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Well that's the point; You should know what to do, and there's an art out there that shows you what to do.

I do know what to do. Get back on my feet asap.

You seem to have pretty much ignored the fact that in the clip I posted the guy was up against multiple opponents and his skills, strategy (staying on his feet) and tactics enabled him to avoid being surrounded and deal with the threats one at a time very quickly and efficiently before any of his opponents could take him to the ground.