Taekwondo = defense?

[Han-Mi]

A good foundation in Boxing punches and movement patterns and Muay Thai kicking techniques (all low line), knees and elbows is a must for the street. Followed by a good understanding of wrestling principles and ground fighting techniques (either BJJ or Judo). It's never failed me yet. It should be noted that over 9 times out of 10, a good boxer will win any street fight, even against skilled opponents, by virtue of the fact that they are used to hitting people for real and they are used to getting hit. It's actually easier in a street fight than in a ring, because most street fighters can't box, but they try to use their hands anyway. Kicks are far fewer in the street than they are in the movies. If you work on techniques in each of the primary ranges of combat, then you should be on your way to being prepared.

I would like to see boxing come back to high schools. It is a brutal learning process, but great for basic self defense. If someone were to wrestle in HS and box in HS, They would definately be well defended. My best argument for TKD is the advanced ability to control distance and use kicks as a distanced attack. Even as a TKD MAist, I must admit that in a street fight I would not kick nearly as much as I do in class sparring, though I believe it is what would allow me to control the distance much better.

I do understand that
MOST fights start within arms length
and
MOST fights end up on the ground
BUT,
NONE of mine have

It's all about your personal experience shaping your perception. This is why we will never all agree, but thatt's what makes the discussions interesting

 

[Han-Mi]

Not that entire post was toward the quote, just the first part about boxing.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not that entire post was toward the quote, just the first part about boxing.

I boxed in highschool the very last year that the FFA held their last boxing tournament in 1990. I guess it was determined after that year that the sport was "too violent" to be a school sanctioned activity. Mores the pity.

 

[Akidorina]

If you were to be pushed to the ground there are ways to fight you'r attacker while on the ground...You can still do all the kicks you were thought while you are on the ground just remember to be aware and alert at times that are necacarry to be alert in..I was in Akido before I took taekwando and all you do is use your attackers strengh against them,arm holds,flips,and so on.I also took a little of Capoeira as well..It does not matter how high of a kick you have in a street fight the higher the kick is the easeier you'r attacker will see what kick your doing..If they ram you against a wall then you can still knee them in the stomach.I know how you feel but stick with it!

 

[dianhsuhe]

Well, good advice so far...

A friend of mine who studies TKD was up for his BB about 10 years ago and he invited me to attend his testing, now I know this might be just his school rather than the norm, but I was surprised to see that there was NO CONTACT during any of his techniques over the entire test. (Not counting light sparring 99% kicks) No takedowns, sweeps, throws, certainly no groundwork of any kind, and barely even any contact on his blocks. I also did not notice any defense against weapons of any kind. It was VERY cool to watch and he is a dedicated and hard-working martial artist but those techniques and any kind of reality are pretty far apart IMHO-

Before I get flamed by TKD people worldwide, I understand every school is different and maybe this was an exception rather than the rule, but I thought I'd relate the experience. I am sure there are many TKD or TSD folks who are very tough and street effective!

The good news was his instructor required him to study another martial art (before his BB test) for several months and to report back (like a thesis) with similarities and differences between the two so he trained with me and my teacher in Kara-Ho Kempo. I think he enjoyed himself and came away with a new perspective on martial arts but he said he could not believe how hard we trained and how hard we hit each other- His kicks were great but he was lacking everywhere else- In short, he was getting destroyed by even low ranking students once they could close the gap at all. And for techniques he had a strong foundation but lacked the fluidity and movement that are so important...

I think the bottom line is to cross-train after you get to BB, if you feel you need it. I always thought it was fun to watch other styles or work out with folks from different disciplines (In a friendly manner) It is a good sign that you realize you need work in other areas or ranges of fighting. Go forth and learn!

One of our instructors has been cage-fighting and trains with the MMA/Muay Thai folks and he is adding more ground work to his already devastating striking/and ground-work arsenal.

Always expand on your base and stay open-minded to other MA folks out there And no matter what keep on training!

Keep us posted!
James

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'd like to hear from Taekwondo practioners who have actually used their art in a real fight. Theory is great, but real experience might add a little depth to this discussion. What you "could do" in a fight is always good for a discussion, but "what has happened to me" always gets my attention more.

 

[bignick]

Before I get flamed by TKD people worldwide, I understand every school is different and maybe this was an exception rather than the rule, but I thought I'd relate the experience.

An all too common exception...

As far as real fights go...no, I've never been in one. I've never been in a fight situation, I've been in situations that I suppose you could call conflicts or confrontations but my size, demeanor, and confidence have always diffused them before they became physical.

 

[bignick]

I wonder about where the bad TKD comes from...cause it's there and I'm willing to admit it. I wonder if it's just a matter of scale. TKD has become so explosively commercially successful that more schools means more bad schools as well. Or is it a matter emphasis on competition? I know a lot of TKD people that like to ignore how much competition has affected the art. They may not talk about it, but we talk about it all the time in judo, and we call it "judo dumb". "Judo dumb" is thinking only within the restraints of the rules governing competition. Whenever I randori with someone who's sole or major focus in judo is on competition, whenever I throw a technique - that we allow in our school, but may not be completely competition legal - I always hear the same thing, especially when it worked so well that they never knew what hit them, "You know you couldn't do that at a tournament." That's fine by me, just like cutting lumber when your building something....you can always take a little more off, or not use a technique or two if you have to....but you can never put more back on the piece of wood and you will never be able to use a technique you never learned or never practiced....

 

[Jerry]

Firstly, any fight-oriented training; especially combined with strength and cardio work (and I've not seen TKD that lacked these), will only serve to help you should you end up in a fight.

Secondly, the more realisticly you train, the less liekly you will be to continue using poor or poorly-understood material, and the less out of yuor element you may feel when a fight occurs.

Thirdly, in regards to TKD as a fighting art: I'm not going to deal with the flames from "but my school doesnt" and focus on the WTF TKD cirriculim. As an art TKD focuses very heavily on only a few techinques. It's hand work lacks the sophistication of most boxing arts, and it's foot work is often low-percentage. In short, I don't consider it a very combative art, and it is certainly vunerable in many ways (such as being taken down).

That said, recent history is replete with people definding themselves using TKD. There is more than one case out there of soemone opening with a kick to the head and killing their opponent at the beginning of the fight (usually from this impact with the concrete when they fell). This is both a statement in TKD's favor (it can work efficiently), and against it (it offers less options than most regarding escilation of force).

My $0.02, for what it's worth.

 

[bignick]

This is both a statement in TKD's favor (it can work efficiently), and against it (it offers less options than most regarding escilation of force).

My $0.02, for what it's worth.

Very true...and one of the major reasons I started training in judo and jujutsu, not because I didn't think I could use TKD to defend myself, but because there is little variability in force. To defend yourself with strikes you can't apply half strength and expect that to control somebody. You need to go all out - finish it, right then and there...and wasn't always comfortable with that being my only option.

 

[dianhsuhe]

As Jerry mentioned above the more realistic the training is the more likely you are going to be able to defend yourself successfully. The problem with that buddy of mine and his training was the fact that the only time he experienced any contact was during sparring, and that is controlled and practiced usually only to score points.

When he came to train with us he was not used to defending against a push, grab, or anything close. His first move was almost always a step back to make room for a kick. And while keeping distance is important sometimes you just can't help being i huging range He had good instincts but that does not cut it in the street-

Again, I know TKD schools and styles vary and much of this is from the instructor- so your mileage may vary! (I actually started in TKD but only managed to make it to green belt before my teacher moved in with my girlfriend- no joke!)

Cheers!

 

[Han-Mi]

Again, I know TKD schools and styles vary and much of this is from the instructor- so your mileage may vary! (I actually started in TKD but only managed to make it to green belt before my teacher moved in with my girlfriend- no joke!)

Cheers!

WOW! That's a bad instructor... NO, we don't do that!:whip:

 

[pnoy_kickfighter]

Taekwondo appears to me like a sport, tournament fighting and stuff, well im 15, I have pretty fast and hard kicks, but I have this doubt, that if someone confronts me my leggs alone wont be enough to defend my self, I had another thread like this, but I have to ask again, do you think taekwondo alone would be enough to take on the punks out there? on my block I jog alot, and a few times i've almost been jumped, I usually talk my way out of it, I wont fight unless I have to, but if push comes to shove would taekwondo be enough, I fight other martial artist, and we usually stay back , but in a real fight they rush, charge, tackle you, if someone tackled me to to the ground, i'd be dead meat....but would they get a chance to get me to the ground?

mabye I should take another style? one more in the way of self defense? what do you guys think?

sorry guys for this kinda long thread.

thanks
Laborn

as a fellow TKD practitioner dont change your style but instead have your own fighting method maybe learning a little about grappling and close range and still keeping the "essence" of TKD. Then again you always dont expect to win for example 5 guys with weapons gives you a lower chance to survive. But always be aware and be careful.

 

[Tony]

From what I know about Taekwondo I believe in sparring and tournaments that you are not allowed to punch to the face but you can kick to the face!
This is all very well and good if you have the flexiblility of a ballet dancer but what if you don't! I would never use any kick that goes above the waist! I am pretty flexible but high kicks leave you vulnerable. So if I were you I would aim for your attackers legs, shins, knee joints but don't just think about using your legs, do use your hands, punches, elbows, eye gouges and and whatever else you can.

If you feel your training is lacking certain things then possibly look to other martial arts, especially ones that incorporate throws, escapes, submisions, holds etc. In my Kung fu class we do a lot of throws, holds and submissions and even learning how to defend against weapons.
Visualize how you would deal with imaginery opponents and what kind of techniques you would use. In some of our classes we use throws and submissions in our sparring. This seems like a more realistic way of fighting as out in the street you could be tackled and many people like to grapple.

 

[Grenadier]

What does your Tae Kwon Do school teach? There are many types of schools. Some will teach with an emphasis on Olympic-style rules (no punches to the head, no fake punches to the head, etc), others are McDojo-ish, and some are very well-rounded to the point where they are similar to many a good Okinawan or Japanese martial arts school.

If your dojang only teaches you to fight using Olympic-style rules, and does not teach you practical fighting techniques, groundfighting, or grappling, then you could be in for a world of hurt, should you get into a street brawl. While it's possible you could end the fight before someone gets a chance, the odds aren't in your favor.

If, on the other hand, your dojang competently teaches you practical fighting applications, as well as much-needed grappling and groundwork, then you'll be as well-prepared as any. I was fortunate to have an excellent sabumnim that made darn sure that we trained in close quarters fighting, grappling, and ground fighting, as well as sharpening up all hand techniques as well. Yes, we would still train for some Olympic-style fighting, but he always emphasized that what went on in such competitions stayed in such competitions.

If your dojang is a McDojo / McDojang, then the disasterous results have an excellent chance of occurring, regardless of what was taught.

 

[still learning]

Hello, What's the best for Street fights......Will your TKD work? Depends?

How many martial art schools teach you to prepare for a street fight? w/no rules and any goes including anything around you can be use to fight back with?

If you don't train for this type of fighting than the answer will mostly likely be NO for TKD. (against a regular street fighter).

Your eyes will be a mostly likely tarket for a street fighter,it is for us! and anytime you can take someone down to the ground to pound, you will do it.

.....again it depends who, what, where, and how many?...best to avoid and leave...if not run away.................best to be alive tomorrow.....Aloha

 

[Mark Lynn]

Laborn

Number one: educate yourself on the mindset and the realities of the real world outside of your school. Just like you are doing here by posting a question and getting a wide range of advice from a wide cross section of people. There are plenty of books out there that deal with this kind of material Marc "Animal" McFarn, Geoff Thomson (?), Hock Hochheim, Tony Blauer (?), and others all have material (in some form or another DVDs, tapes, books, web sites etc. etc.) that deal with this subject material on self defense.

I believe that once you educate yourself you can adapt your training to include a more realistic way to train for SD without really leaving your current/base style. I'll give you a few examples what I mean. (posible long post warning )

1) Think and study your root or basic techniques and blocks. Several different applications can come from these movements, you just need to be aware of what they are.
a) For years in the 80's I would attend seminars in JKD and I took a lot of abuse for being in TKD. However at one seminar we went through a knife defense and the first block was a standard upward block (but with an open hand to grab the weapon hand with). Later on there was a throw/take down that came from the root movements of the outside /inside block that I learned in TKD. One of the disruptions/takedowns in the silat material is the same basic movements as stepping back in forward stance.
b)In the filipino martial arts (that I now study) many of the disarms and such in the empty hand material can be related to the same movements I learned as blocks in TKD. The foot work is similar, and all of the years I spent moving up and down the floor in fwd stance is the same as when I'm trying to get in when the stick has been swung past me and its time to crash.
c) Look at the structures of the kicks what comes out first your knee, what do you use in close but your knees. So train to use them in close, your body already knows what to do, you just have to train your mind when to use it.

2) As stated previously low kicks to the leg works well but you must train for them. In our dojo we did this, but I found it was very hard for people in other schools to spar against and they didn't like it.
a) I sparred with one TKD BB (outside of the school) and he couldn't handle it, messed him all up, word got around to me from other people at work that I fought dirty and such cause I kicked to his knees and legs, and I didn't touch them. (But I could have )

3) Adjusting your training to include SD. There has been a lot of posts on grappling and the need for those skills. I would agree but with a need for SD.
a) Another time I was working out with some San Soo guys and were sparring free for all. As I was being set up for a throw I stuck my fingers in his eyes (again controled of course and I had trained for this) and went with the throw. When we grappled I did the same thing.
b) Hock has us go through a drill where we grapple on the ground and one person goes for submission lock of any sort and the other goes for the eyes. Eyes have won the vast majority of the time. This doesn't mean you have to take up grappling just adjust the intention of the drill.
c) On the subject of kicking, Hock in his courses again has the student kick from the ground from laying on your side etc. etc. It is still the same type of kick but slightly modified since you are on the ground.
d) In TKD we use to do one step self defense/sparring. Adjust it slightly. Both students stand close together as if talking (no ready stances or Kias telling the person I'm ready attack me here) then one takes a swing at the other. (Here a haymaker type works well) And the defender defends against the punch free style (as in SD type techniques).

In closing TKD or any system really can be good for SD only your must train for it. While some are better in teaching SD than others, I believe they are all different paths up the same mountain. What matters are the guide (the teacher) and the climber (the student).

Mark

 

[swiftpete]

As stated previously low kicks to the leg works well but you must train for them. In our dojo we did this, but I found it was very hard for people in other schools to spar against and they didn't like it.
a) I sparred with one TKD BB (outside of the school) and he couldn't handle it, messed him all up, word got around to me from other people at work that I fought dirty and such cause I kicked to his knees and legs, and I didn't touch them. (But I could have )

Same thing happened to me when i was sparring against some TKD people at a school i went to. I was only really training kickboxing at the time but was trying out the class. Knee kicks and sweeps just seem natural to me and always have, i thought the high grades would be doing them/defending as well but after a while i was approached by the teacher and told to stop as they 'didn't do that sort of thing here' Pretty gay that students with several yrs training in martial arts hadn't encountered a knee kick before.
I'm sure lots of dojos do teach that sort of thing but not that one! I didn't go back. Anyway now i'm a hardcore super rock ninja i don't need to worry about shopping for different martial arts classes..!

 

[Mark Lynn]

Same thing happened to me when i was sparring against some TKD people at a school i went to. I was only really training kickboxing at the time but was trying out the class. Knee kicks and sweeps just seem natural to me and always have, i thought the high grades would be doing them/defending as well but after a while i was approached by the teacher and told to stop as they 'didn't do that sort of thing here' Pretty gay that students with several yrs training in martial arts hadn't encountered a knee kick before.
I'm sure lots of dojos do teach that sort of thing but not that one! I didn't go back. Anyway now i'm a hardcore super rock ninja i don't need to worry about shopping for different martial arts classes..!

In my experience not that many practice kicks to the knee, due to safety and liability issues. However that is why I said you have to train for that, and many times outside of the class at that. In my TKD instructors home dojo we had that kind of quality control and that enviroment to spar with those type of techniques (knees elbows, ground work etc. etc.) and not get hurt or sue each other.

My point was that it's many times not the art but how it is practiced as to whether or not it is effective for SD.

Mark

 

[swiftpete]

yeah i can see that, training with eye techniques sounds like the sort of thing you need to know and trust each other to do!

Interesting points in your post, the taking a punch at each other without warning is the sort of thing we do sometimes in my class, its a different feeling when you arent setting up the technique then running through it time and again but just going with what happens. Nice feeling when you surprise yourself with a technique too that you didn't know you were going to do!