When the pursuit of "not being a sport" goes wrong...

[Hanzou]

Elbows are against the rules. I was taught them in boxing-the elbow off the jab and cross. Grappling takes place in the clinch, though "holding" is against the rules.

And the kicks and takedowns from "boxing of olde"?

You seem to be fond of martial "games," contests like BJJ and judo, that are bound by rules. The arts that are at their basis are not.

Yeah, but again, Bjj is shaped by three sports while Judo is shaped by one. Further, Bjj has a "founder effect" rooted in self defense and street fighting which pushes it to be all encompassing and eclectic. Thus no matter how sporty it becomes, there is still that shadow of what Bjj's purpose was.

On the other hand, for all of Kano's genius, he had a very stubborn view of what he wanted Judo to be, and he took active steps throughout his life to shape Judo into his personal vision. So much so that all of those IJF rules can still be interpreted as what Kano envisioned the art to be.

Judoka don't need to cross train in BJJ to bring ne waza back to the art: everything in BJJ was in judo first.

"Crusty old manuals?" Mifune?

Mifune was only 66 when my father met him, and I was only five when Mifune died. I started judo three years later.

Of course, "crusty old," becomes a better and better description of me, every day!

Yeah, he received his 6th Dan over 100 years ago, and was 66 in 1949. His Judo manual is over 60 years old, and that was also a long time ago.

 

[elder999]

And the kicks and takedowns from "boxing of olde"?

Who cares? Your analogy fails.

Yeah, but again, Bjj is shaped by three sports while Judo is shaped by one. Further, Bjj has a "founder effect" rooted in self defense and street fighting which pushes it to be all encompassing and eclectic. Thus no matter how sporty it becomes, there is still that shadow of what Bjj's purpose was.

Judo was shaped from several different styles of jujutsu, as well as western wrestling.

On the other hand, for all of Kano's genius, he had a very stubborn view of what he wanted Judo to be, and he took active steps throughout his life to shape Judo into his personal vision. So much so that all of those IJF rules can still be interpreted as what Kano envisioned the art to be.

Uhh....ermm....what?

Yeah, he received his 6th Dan over 100 years ago, and was 66 in 1949. His Judo manual is over 60 years old, and that was also a long time ago.

My father got ranked in judo 66 years ago. I started in judo 48 years ago....I attained shodan 40 years ago.

"a long time ago" is extremely relative, for those of us who still train with the pre-WWII syllabus,.

 

[Hanzou]

Who cares? Your analogy fails.

The analogy is that kicking and takedowns were once a part of boxing. They're not practiced by modern boxers today.

The same applies to Judo. Yeah, leg locks and double leg takedowns were in Judo at one point, but modern Judoka aren't learning them.

Judo was shaped from several different styles of jujutsu, as well as western wrestling.

Yeah, but it wasn't shaped by street fighting. It was designed to be a form of self improvement and exercise. Kano wasn't going out with his sons and challenging people, he was looking to create a form of physical education that would improve society as a whole.

Uhh....ermm....what?

You weren't aware that Kano purposely neutered Judo newaza and other aspects at multiple points throughout Judo's history?

My father got ranked in judo 66 years ago. I started in judo 48 years ago....I attained shodan 40 years ago.

"a long time ago" is extremely relative, for those of us who still train with the pre-WWII syllabus,.

And you do realize that the teaching of pre-war Judo is extremely rare right? Its even rare in Japan.

 

[elder999]

The analogy is that kicking and takedowns were once a part of boxing. They're not practiced by modern boxers today.

The same applies to Judo. Yeah, leg locks and double leg takedowns were in Judo at one point, but modern Judoka aren't learning them..

Modern judoka are learning them, just not all modern judoka.

Yeah, but it wasn't shaped by street fighting. It was designed to be a form of self improvement and exercise. Kano wasn't going out with his sons and challenging people, he was looking to create a form of physical education that would improve society as a whole.

There were contests in the early stages of judo's development that rival the early history of BJJ-and I'd dispute that the one-on-one combat that was ruled by a Brazilian culture of machismo and the code duello is what I'd call "street fighting."

You weren't aware that Kano purposely neutered Judo newaza and other aspects at multiple points throughout Judo's history?

The rules were changed for a variety of reasons,including its becoming an Olympic sport-and the worst of it wasn't by Kano at all.,...

And you do realize that the teaching of pre-war Judo is extremely rare right? Its even rare in Japan.

Not so rare at all, actually-certainly uncommon, but I can name at least four dojo in the NYC metropolitan area that teach it, an d another two in NJ-at least, they did when I lived there. I travel a lot, and I can name two in Denver, and I've already named one in Seattle. There's more than half a dozen in Hawaii.....I realize that's a low percentage out of all the judo dojo in the country, but it's out there if you want to find it.
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[Hanzou]

Modern judoka are learning them, just not all modern judoka.

More like a tiny minority of Judoka. Given the numbers of Judoka cross-training into Bjj, it's probably even smaller than that.

There were contests in the early stages of judo's development that rival the early history of BJJ-and I'd dispute that the one-on-one combat that was ruled by a Brazilian culture of machismo and the code duello is what I'd call "street fighting."

Except the street fighting and challenges didn't stop with the early history of Bjj, it continued throughout its history, even up to the modern day. It's a pretty integral part of the culture of art. Judo took a very different path.

The rules were changed for a variety of reasons,including its becoming an Olympic sport-and the worst of it wasn't by Kano at all.,...

So Kano wasn't the one who limited the amount of time one can remain on the ground because of the growing popularity of newaza (and his personal distaste of ground fighting)?

Not so rare at all, actually-certainly uncommon, but I can name at least four dojo in the NYC metropolitan area that teach it, an d another two in NJ-at least, they did when I lived there. I travel a lot, and I can name two in Denver, and I've already named one in Seattle. There's more than half a dozen in Hawaii.....I realize that's a low percentage out of all the judo dojo in the country, but it's out there if you want to find it.
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Again, I wouldn't consider a gym that teaches Sambo, Jujutsu and Judo (with Judo listed last) to be a "Judo dojo".

Interesting article that emphasizes what I'm talking about, and illustrates the frustration of many judoka;

Why is that illegal? | BetterJudo.com

 

[kuniggety]

There are plenty of blue belts and even purple belts out there who don't have good takedowns or experience dealing with strikes.

I can admit to being one of those blues. At my current school we train takedowns (shooting and judo throws) every class so it's something that I hope will be fully remedied by the time I make purple.