Ground Fighting

[Steve]

As others have said, there was a lot of wrong in that video. I don't know what was going on, but that dude had plenty of opportunities to avoid the fight.

But, after being taken down, there were plenty of opportunities to disengage and stand back up. It's a shame he had no grappling skills.

 

[hoshin1600]

i often hear all the debates on the effectiveness of ground skills and whether or not you should learn it. i think all this chatter misses the point. i think the real issue to be considered is when and how to use ground game skills. something that is very important to keep in mind is weapons. "a knife is to be felt, not seen" many times you dont know a weapon is involved untill you see your own blood. this is where i like to make the distinction between knowing ground fighting and when to use those ground skills. i teach my students that they MUST assume the bad guy has a weapon. like i said many times you dont know its there untill its too late. yes i like ground fighting, however to use those skills as the first line of defense or a first reaction response to a threat is in my opinion a mistake. you must have a ground game for as the op says, when the fight goes to the ground but i do not want to take it there if i can help it. it would be a foolish mistake to charge in for a double leg take down only to find a knife sticking out of your spine. imagine pulling gaurd and land with a knife in your face. so when and how to use ground game skills is more the issue than whether or not to learn them. the old saying goes "you will fight as you train" therefore logic will show you that if you want to use ground skills in a fight then you must not apply those skills in a sport oriented manner. we all known this as self evident but sometimes that sport VS street application is difficult to define. the more sport training you do the less your eyes will SEE the pitfalls of that aplication applied to street situations.
and for the record if your using your skills to fight inside or outside a bar room, that is not a legit self defense situation. if you can walk away and you dont your just an idiot. everytime you engage in violence you run the risk of serious bodily injury and death. you could step backwards into a moving vehicle you could slip on a wet spot on the floor and smash your head causing brain damge. you just never know.

 

[Transk53]

The ground decision is about dealing with a potential threat over an actual threat. So you worry about getting a beat down by that one guy before you worry about the beat down by the five mysterious random guys.

And of course the only way to get up off the ground is to have ground skills.

I go the ground all the time in fights. I have been kicked in the head by a bystander once. And then a mate of mine clamped him. Like anything it is about situational awareness and working to fit the situation and not working to a script.

Did that last weekend dropped a guy in a scarf. His mates came over and told me to get off him. I said I would if they take care of their mate. They did. Everybody was happy.

Now I can get up seriously fast from a scarf hold so the threat is not as bad as people think.

You got away with a Scarf. Admittedly I had no idea what that was until this morning, and by sheer luck, I found out via google. Yeah bear, nice ending

 

[Hanzou]

If the only major pitfalls of ground fighting is that your opponent might have a weapon, or superior numbers, then that's a pretty dominant method of fighting IMO.

 

[Transk53]

The ground decision is about dealing with a potential threat over an actual threat. So you worry about getting a beat down by that one guy before you worry about the beat down by the five mysterious random guys.

And of course the only way to get up off the ground is to have ground skills.

I go the ground all the time in fights. I have been kicked in the head by a bystander once. And then a mate of mine clamped him. Like anything it is about situational awareness and working to fit the situation and not working to a script.

Did that last weekend dropped a guy in a scarf. His mates came over and told me to get off him. I said I would if they take care of their mate. They did. Everybody was happy.

Now I can get up seriously fast from a scarf hold so the threat is not as bad as people think.

Nice ending Bear

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

If the only major pitfalls of ground fighting is that your opponent might have a weapon, or superior numbers, then that's a pretty dominant method of fighting IMO.

You seem to be dismissing those 2 possibilities rather lightly, no?

I wonder what is the statistical probability of either of those scenarios in a real life SD situation?

P.S. I would also include all situations with multiple opponents rather than just superior numbers

 

[Hanzou]

You seem to be dismissing those 2 possibilities rather lightly, no?

I wonder what is the statistical probability of either of those scenarios in a real life SD situation?

P.S. I would also include all situations with multiple opponents rather than just superior numbers

Multiple opponents and weapons is dangerous regardless of what you practice.

 

[jezr74]

I used to think this is true but not any more. A striker definitely need to learn some grappling skill, but a grappler may not need to learn the striking skill.

When a striker punches a grappler, if that grappler can "wrap the striker's punching arms and take him down right at that moment", he doesn't need to learn the basics of striking. When an octopus fights against a shark, that octopus doesn't need to have sharp teeth as along as that octopus has good wrapping skill.

You run toward me, swing your arms, and try to knock my head off. I also run toward you, have no intention to punch you, concentrate 100% on using both of my arms to wrap your arms. Will you be able to hit on my head first, or will I be able to wrap your arms first? It will be very interested to test this 100 times with your training partner, record the result, and share the result in this forum.

I think it's good to have some all round skills. Relying on one over the other is personal option, if you specialise in BJJ why wouldn't your game plan be to go to the ground asap if you don't have the confidence in your stand up and vise-versa.

I've fought against primary grapplers, some were good some terrible. But I can get some in a holding position rather easily too and prevent them getting techniques to work, then I can just pound them if they are preventing me from getting up in a dominant position and am happy to stay on the ground and rest if I can't get an advantage. This is becoming more common as well IMO, just keeping them at bay, you see it in the octogon, sitting there, riding the clock down. They are not as effective as they used to be in the sport.

I've witnessed more fights over in the first 10 seconds than going to the ground, it's all about perspective right. When does a fight start and when does it finish?

When was the fight over in the clip and just became violence?

 

[hoshin1600]

If the only major pitfalls of ground fighting is that your opponent might have a weapon, or superior numbers, then that's a pretty dominant method of fighting IMO.

the words people choose to use often reveals a lot about how they see the world. i am not interesting fighting. i am interested in life and death threats and self protection.

everyone has their own version of reality. if BJJ is your response to a threat and feel its best for you...great. but for myself it is only a last resort, defensive game plan for when everything else went wrong. if i am using it then i screwed up along the continuum big time. ground work just does not fit into the scenario i see playing out in my reality . being on the ground is just not where i want to be ...ever. will it happen yes, but its not what i want.

 

[Hanzou]

the words people choose to use often reveals a lot about how they see the world. i am not interesting fighting. i am interested in life and death threats and self protection.

everyone has their own version of reality. if BJJ is your response to a threat and feel its best for you...great. but for myself it is only a last resort, defensive game plan for when everything else went wrong. if i am using it then i screwed up along the continuum big time. ground work just does not fit into the scenario i see playing out in my reality . being on the ground is just not where i want to be ...ever. will it happen yes, but its not what i want.

The common misconception of Bjj is that its only ground fighting. There's actually strikes and standing throws taught within the system, at least in more traditional schools.

The other misconception is that Bjj stylists want to be on their back, so that they perform guard pulls. In actuality, the goal with take downs is to be in the mounted or side position, so you won't see much in the way of guard pulls outside of competition Bjj. The guard was developed if all else fails and you wind up on your back. In a situation, the mount is the most desired position by far.

Thus my response to a threat with Bjj is pretty varied since I'm trained to fight from every conceivable range. I only mentioned the power of fighting from the ground because its very powerful. The vast majority of the population simply don't know how to fight in that range.

 

[drop bear]

You got away with a Scarf. Admittedly I had no idea what that was until this morning, and by sheer luck, I found out via google. Yeah bear, nice ending

Not so much about getting away with it. It is about playing the percentages. I mess the guy up. And you really have to mess a guy up controlling them with striking. Chances at i am fighting his mates. The thing people forget about the ground is multiple on one sucks pretty bad standing up as well.

So from the ground I can handle the guy with the option of abandoning my position if the risk becomes greater. Either negotiate or threaten or even give the guy a few decent free shots before I have to eject from there.

If it is multiple guys all trying to punch my head in then I would not go to ground by choice. But if the choice is taken from me. Scramble finish on top and get up.

The scarf is good if you are going to be there for a while. It is just easier on my body because I am sitting down.

 

[Argus]

Multiple opponents and weapons is dangerous regardless of what you practice.

And going to the ground in either of those cases is not far removed from suicide. At least better your chances significantly by staying on your feet.

There are many more reasons why going to the ground is generally a bad idea in a self defense situation, but if you'd rather like to ignore them, that's up to you, I guess.

Now, that's not to say that BJJ isn't useful for self-defense, or that it doesn't contain useful stand-up techniques. Just use it appropriately, and don't belittle stand-up arts for focusing on resolving a fight without going to the ground. While preparing to defend yourself on the ground should you need to is definitely a wise thing to do, it should be the last thing on your list of priorities. Why train for the worst case scenario, and the worst case position, when you can train not to get in that position to begin with? It would make sense that priorities should go something like avoidance, de-escalation, stand-up work, and lastly, ground work. If you're on the ground, a whole lot of things have already gone wrong, and you've committed yourself to one opponent and taken "running away" off of the table completely. That's just not a smart position to put yourself in if you had a choice.

Also, you must recognize that you can't just say "if, then."
"If it's just one opponent," how do you know he doesn't have buddies, or that someone else won't join in the fight, or that he is unarmed, or that you are guaranteed to win regardless and he won't get a lucky punch in or overwhelm you with brute force in a way that you did not anticipate? You won't know -- not until someone comes up and starts kicking you in the side of the head, or you're getting stabbed, or your head happens to get knocked against the concrete. Your priority should be to escape a dangerous situation, not commit yourself to it. Time is of the essence, and ending or disengaging from the fight by the quickest and least risky way possible is what you should be thinking about.

 

[drop bear]

And going to the ground in either of those cases is not far removed from suicide. At least better your chances significantly by staying on your feet.

There are many more reasons why going to the ground is generally a bad idea in a self defense situation, but if you'd rather like to ignore them, that's up to you, I guess.

Now, that's not to say that BJJ isn't useful for self-defense, or that it doesn't contain useful stand-up techniques. Just use it appropriately, and don't belittle stand-up arts for focusing on resolving a fight without going to the ground. While preparing to defend yourself on the ground should you need to is definitely a wise thing to do, it should be the last thing on your list of priorities. Why train for the worst case scenario, and the worst case position, when you can train not to get in that position to begin with? It would make sense that priorities should go something like avoidance, de-escalation, stand-up work, and lastly, ground work. If you're on the ground, a whole lot of things have already gone wrong, and you've committed yourself to one opponent and taken "running away" off of the table completely. That's just not a smart position to put yourself in if you had a choice.

Also, you must recognize that you can't just say "if, then."
"If it's just one opponent," how do you know he doesn't have buddies, or that someone else won't join in the fight, or that he is unarmed, or that you are guaranteed to win regardless and he won't get a lucky punch in or overwhelm you with brute force in a way that you did not anticipate? You won't know -- not until someone comes up and starts kicking you in the side of the head, or you're getting stabbed, or your head happens to get knocked against the concrete. Your priority should be to escape a dangerous situation, not commit yourself to it. Time is of the essence, and ending or disengaging from the fight by the quickest and least risky way possible is what you should be thinking about.

So the bulk of your training is awareness,deescalation and running? And then a bit of hands on bashing people tacked on somewhere?

 

[Transk53]

You seem to be dismissing those 2 possibilities rather lightly, no?

I wonder what is the statistical probability of either of those scenarios in a real life SD situation?

P.S. I would also include all situations with multiple opponents rather than just superior numbers

Whether this counts or not towards the point you have made, but I have experienced a situation like that as a teenager. I got jumped by a bully and his gang. There were no knives or anything that I remember, but ruck sacks do hurt a bit. Ended up with a split eye brow after one of them kicked me in the head. Still kinda feel that trainer.

 

[Transk53]

Not so much about getting away with it. It is about playing the percentages. I mess the guy up. And you really have to mess a guy up controlling them with striking. Chances at i am fighting his mates. The thing people forget about the ground is multiple on one sucks pretty bad standing up as well.

So from the ground I can handle the guy with the option of abandoning my position if the risk becomes greater. Either negotiate or threaten or even give the guy a few decent free shots before I have to eject from there.

If it is multiple guys all trying to punch my head in then I would not go to ground by choice. But if the choice is taken from me. Scramble finish on top and get up.

The scarf is good if you are going to be there for a while. It is just easier on my body because I am sitting down.

Did not think my reply posted, internet connection dropped out. Would that be termed a choke hold then?

If it is multiple guys all trying to punch my head in then I would not go to ground by choice. But if the choice is taken from me. Scramble finish on top and get up.

Last time I encountered that it was three coked up Colombians who jumped me and tried to take me to the ground. They were built like Whippets luckily. When their drugged up, I actually think it is easier to contain and diffuse a situation. They tend to make very early mistakes which you can pretty much mentally counter before hand.

 

[drop bear]

Did not think my reply posted, internet connection dropped out. Would that be termed a choke hold then?



Last time I encountered that it was three coked up Colombians who jumped me and tried to take me to the ground. They were built like Whippets luckily. When their drugged up, I actually think it is easier to contain and diffuse a situation. They tend to make very early mistakes which you can pretty much mentally counter before hand.

I tend to arm bar. Not this one a leg on that I can't find.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8K4sSo-B9-Q

This one.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=66utLNxCKcQ

 

[Transk53]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=66utLNxCKcQ

That looks brutal. That must some supreme skill not to snap a bone.

 

[Hanzou]

And going to the ground in either of those cases is not far removed from suicide. At least better your chances significantly by staying on your feet.

There are many more reasons why going to the ground is generally a bad idea in a self defense situation, but if you'd rather like to ignore them, that's up to you, I guess.

Now, that's not to say that BJJ isn't useful for self-defense, or that it doesn't contain useful stand-up techniques. Just use it appropriately, and don't belittle stand-up arts for focusing on resolving a fight without going to the ground. While preparing to defend yourself on the ground should you need to is definitely a wise thing to do, it should be the last thing on your list of priorities. Why train for the worst case scenario, and the worst case position, when you can train not to get in that position to begin with? It would make sense that priorities should go something like avoidance, de-escalation, stand-up work, and lastly, ground work. If you're on the ground, a whole lot of things have already gone wrong, and you've committed yourself to one opponent and taken "running away" off of the table completely. That's just not a smart position to put yourself in if you had a choice.

Also, you must recognize that you can't just say "if, then."
"If it's just one opponent," how do you know he doesn't have buddies, or that someone else won't join in the fight, or that he is unarmed, or that you are guaranteed to win regardless and he won't get a lucky punch in or overwhelm you with brute force in a way that you did not anticipate? You won't know -- not until someone comes up and starts kicking you in the side of the head, or you're getting stabbed, or your head happens to get knocked against the concrete. Your priority should be to escape a dangerous situation, not commit yourself to it. Time is of the essence, and ending or disengaging from the fight by the quickest and least risky way possible is what you should be thinking about.

And yet here we are again with more misconceptions.

For starters, the goal of the Bjj takedown is not to end up in this position (white gi);

The goal of the Bjj takedown is to end up in this position (white gi);

Or with the opponent facing down.

The top position (guard) is a defensive position, so yes you're in the position if something has gone wrong. However, no smart Bjj guy is going to purposely put themselves in that position when they could end up in the second position. Further, good luck kicking me in the head while I'm in that second position. If I'm on top of someone, I can do many nasty things to them before their buddy comes to their aid. Additionally, I can simply disengage and stand back up again.

Let's also keep in mind that throwing someone to the ground can end a fight more quickly than trading blows with someone. Anyone remember that video of the security guard and the thug? They were trading blows for several minutes before other cops broke them up, and the security guard was trained. You trade punches with a bigger person, you're going to get jacked up, and probably knocked out. If I go for a clinch and slam them into the concrete with a hip throw or Osoto Gari, the fight's probably over right then and there. If not, I can mount him and start pummeling him in the face until he's done, or his buddy tries to intervene.

Yeah, we train throws in Bjj. It came from Judo after all.

BTW, aren't all weapon disarms from grappling range? Which art do you think is better adept at doing something like that? An art that specializes in striking, or an art that specializes in controlling the limbs of the body?

I'm only doing any of this if I have no other options on the table (i.e. I can't walk away or escape, or said person is going to hurt someone else).

 

[Steve]

And going to the ground in either of those cases is not far removed from suicide. At least better your chances significantly by staying on your feet.

There are many more reasons why going to the ground is generally a bad idea in a self defense situation, but if you'd rather like to ignore them, that's up to you, I guess.

how clear can this be said? Let's break this down.

1: Going to the ground is a bad idea (ie suicide). We all agree with this.
2: Going to the ground should generally be avoided as a strategy.
3: In most fights outside of competition, we will not know what training our opponent (or multiple opponents) have.

Can we agree that these three things are universally accepted as true? Hanzou, you would agree with these things. Right? Kman? Argus? Anyone disagree?

Okay. Let's move on then. If being on the ground is suicide, wouldn't it be among the MOST IMPORTANT things for you to learn? If you don't train appropriately to improve your position, escape from inferior positions, control your opponent, regain your feet and disengage, are you not essentially committing suicide? And let me be clear, I'm not saying you MUST be a BJJ black belt. But, come on, guys. If you are saying this stuff and aren't AT LEAST a competent BJJ blue belt, you're delusional.

 

[Hanzou]

how clear can this be said? Let's break this down.

1: Going to the ground is a bad idea (ie suicide). We all agree with this.
2: Going to the ground should generally be avoided as a strategy.
3: In most fights outside of competition, we will not know what training our opponent (or multiple opponents) have.

Can we agree that these three things are universally accepted as true? Hanzou, you would agree with these things. Right? Kman? Argus? Anyone disagree?

Okay. Let's move on then. If being on the ground is suicide, wouldn't it be among the MOST IMPORTANT things for you to learn? If you don't train appropriately to improve your position, escape from inferior positions, control your opponent, regain your feet and disengage, are you not essentially committing suicide? And let me be clear, I'm not saying you MUST be a BJJ black belt. But, come on, guys. If you are saying this stuff and aren't AT LEAST a competent BJJ blue belt, you're delusional.

Like I said before;

I'm only doing any of this if I have no other options on the table (i.e. I can't walk away or escape, or said person is going to hurt someone else).

I actually almost got into a streetfight earlier this year. It would have been 1 on 1, the guy had no weapons. He was just some thug looking to start some crap outside my home. Instead of slamming him into the concrete, I politely asked him to leave or I was calling the cops. He started cursing loudly in my face and I just calmly looked at him as if he was an ant on the sidewalk. He then turned and quickly walked away.

No fuss, no muss.

Now if he had put his hands on me, or tried to attack my wife and/or kids, that scenario would have played out very differently.