Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[elder999]

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.

And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break

Soooo......I've got questions.

Like, which is it, 2-6 or 5-8 "pounds of pressure?"

Like, which is it "pounds of pressure," or "pounds of force?"


Which joint are you referring to? Does it take the same amount (of force, pressure or whatever) to break a finger as it does an elbow? What about a shoulder?
What about a knee?

Which anatomy text did you derive that little factoid from?

Do you mean "break the joint," or "rupture the articular cartilage capsule?"

Perhaps you mean rupture the medial ligament and collateral ligaments, also called the "joint capsule", releasing synovial fluid though I doubt it-maybe "rupture the annular ligament?" Maybe just "rupture the lateral epicondyle," though, again, I doubt it.

Have you ever actually "broken a joint," or had one broken?

Do you mean "use the whole body" for the movement devoted to the kansetsu waza, or use the whole body to control the other person's body?

Or neither, perhaps?

The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.

But, if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with a "chunner" cross training in, say, Japanese jujutsu, or judo-it's just BJJ you have a beef with, right?

 

[MJS]

No, some don’t feel that way.

Yup, its been very obvious.

No, I haven’t studied the art of BJJ, and I don’t want to. That’s the point. I feel that I’ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it’s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don’t need to convince me that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t agree that the two arts mix well. That’s just my opinion.

I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that’s all grand. But, I’m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea.

Yet you still make assumptions about an art you've never trained in. Hmm...go figure. And why do you keep making a reference to 'signing up' somewhere? Who the hell said anything about that? I don't have to 'sign up' somewhere to learn the art. For the first few years of my BJJ training, it was a 1 on 1 private session in the backyard, garage or the school when it was closed. No money exchanged, it was simply a hardcore workout. I still grapple with people. Interestingly enough, I ran into one of my old BJJ teachers this weekend at an Arnis Black Belt workout. Gee imagine that...a BJJ Purple Belt who trains in Kenpo and Arnis. He told me anytime I wanted to come and train, the doors to his school would be open.

I really don’t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I’ll just take it for what it’s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don’t like the technique or don’t understand it, ask. If you don’t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren’t interested, or that don’t train WC/WT.

I, as well as a few others seem to have read that and found it a bit hard to believe. Sorry, but a BJJ Purple belt should be able to school pretty much everyone they roll with. Someone who cant...well, IMHO, should not be wearing a purple.

Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don’t like it, that’s your thing. You don’t understand it, ask. You don’t care, I won’t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that’s something I just don’t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn’t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that’s your choice, not mine.

I'm sorry, but this thread has gone on for 20+ pages, but have I said that I wanted to train WC? I honestly don't recall saying that, but if I did, then so be it. And I would think that if WC, which judging by your posts, you're still considering the almighty art, had such superior ground skills, that anyone and everyone who wanted to be great on the ground would be banging the doors down of every WC school around. Doesn't seem like thats the case though does it?

And speaking of the principles...you seem to educate everyone on WC, yet turn a deaf ear when someone tries to educate you on BJJ. But wait, you dont want to hear it do you? But you expect people to listen to you when you talk about WC?

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

LOL, limitations? Please, I've been training now for 24yrs. I'm quite capable of making what I train in work. And speaking of limitations, you seems to have a very distorted view on things, only having the mindset of what hubby teaches and nothing else. Well if hubby said it'll work it must work. If hubby says this, if hubby says that, if Emin said this or that. There people on here who train BJJ and are trying to show you the differences and how effective it is, but because hubby said otherwise or this person said otherwise, instead of thinking for yourself, you follow like a sheep.

And thats fine. I wish you well in your martial arts journey.

 

[MJS]

ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed.
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.

Hmm...another shameless plug for the ultimate art of WC eh? Guess it goes to show that if you don't know the groundgame, you get screwed like that guy. No sije, WC isn't the ultimate and had someone known what to do on the ground, those punches would not have been as effective.

 

[dungeonworks]

ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed.
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.

Here again the :BSmeter: approaches dangerous levels. Have you ever watched the UFC or other MMA competition? How about a real fight at the bar or wherever? Ever notice that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight aside a few rules? The results you believe from these punches and kicks less often as dramatic as you seem to believe....but the funniest part was the suggestion of Tan-ing out of an armbar in that earlier post! That one was priceless! So far, that is the only move you have picked apart from BJJ and now because Yoshi puts up a 30 second video of a guy in the mount, you think BJJ doesn't have an answer for it. That shows ignorance of BJJ....LOT's of it....To borrow from MJS, I am speechless...

 

[jarrod]

Ah , now I understand , thank you sir , sounds great I will try that out next time I grapple .

you're welcome, please let me know how it works for you :asian:

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.
If your art has a weakness (or just your application of that art) you learn how to overcome that weakness.

The irony is that most of WT/WC technique that is taught is being watered down for this very reason. That people don't have the patience or vision to finish their training before they seek answers from another art. And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break)
You say BJJ uses sensitivity and fluidity, I haven't felt that yet from such a practitioner, and yes, they were people that trained 3-5 days a week and had reached high rank in the art. And the use of Brute Strength is rampant in BJJ, for everytime I use WC guard on the ground they always try to jump in on my knees and break through my "guard", when that doesn't work they try to pry the knees apart, using, guess what? Brute strength. When that doesn't work, they try to pick me up (because I'm small I guess) for a body slam, again, brute strength (I couldn't pick up my Sifu in that fashion!)
The two styles conflict drastically in concepts and fighting/defense approaches. Why not take another art that complements your own more? That would flow o and from WT/WC concepts more effeciently.

Mook Jong Man, I was wondering about that defense to a mounted attacker with the clinch you described.
Have you ever tried to latch the opponent as they punch down on you while bucking your hip up under him?

like say: they throw a hook punch and you dai sau with the left hand, then latch the punching arm as you buck up from under them with your right hip to roll them over. You can follow through with punching on the free hand. Just something to play with when you get a chance. You can do this off a straight punch too, using Tan sau, or pak sau. Buck with the side hip opposite from the arm your latching. (latching usually ends up at the elbow or bicep when in this close, and that's all good.)

Sifu says: for the chunners, "you use Chi Sau principles for your entire body such as a when your bucking, have the hips bucking upwards in a circular motion while your re-directing the punches with your arms. Play with chi sau using your whole body to counter BJJ. BJJ people I don't expect you to understand this because you don't understand chi sau principles. You learn to do chi sau with your whole body on the ground. Arms, legs, hips, shoulders, head, everything in unison depending on the mount and the positioning of the opponent. Where their body weight is centralized, and where it's going."

Proof again you have no clue about BJJ. A BJJ stylist would pass over your legs to side control then/or mount.

Jeesh

 

[elder999]

My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC

So, I have more questions-I'll spare you the overly personal, intrusive and downright disrespectful ones like "where is your hu-er-SIFU stationed, and what rank is he?"

I am....confused, though. I've seen the MCMAP material, both throught MCMAP trained people and the manual(s). Isn't a large component of it Brazilian jujitsu derived ground-fighting? Being a "4th degree MCMAP instructor" would mean that he has BJJ as a component in his skill-set. I won't say that he's diluted or polluted his "pure wing chun," but I have to wonder just how it is he manages to keep his peanut butter off his chocolate, so to speak.....:lol:

 

[MJS]

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related


Hmm...win by RNC.

 

[elder999]

My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun.
My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT. My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge.

So, which is it-"unaffiliated with any master," or "knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT?"

Which two masters did he train under?

My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today

Again, I’m confused. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso developed the MCMAP curriculum?

 

[Steve]

My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC

If this is true, then I can guarantee you that he knows how to pass your open guard... err... WC guard, and it's not by using magic. I wonder why he hasn't shared any of them with you.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCm...eature=related


Hmm...win by RNC.

Interesting video... It turns out this Falkner guy has been training WC since 83 and has also studied with Lo Man Kam. He has also thought the military-Navy Seals teams 2 and 4.

 

[Steve]

So, which is it-"unaffiliated with any master," or "knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT?"

Which two masters did he train under?



Again, I’m confused. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso developed the MCMAP curriculum?

And it was my understanding that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was specifically chosen as a base art in both Army Combatives and MCMAP. Why would your husband be a part of promoting a style for which you both seem to have such a disdain? I am genuinely confused.

 

[mook jong man]

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related


Hmm...win by RNC.

I can see the point you are trying to make , but seriously that Wing Chun guy was crap . That guy is a Sifu that is friggin unbelievable , he must of got his Sifu rank out of the bottom of a box of corn flakes .

I'm just talking about the W.C he was performing in the clip , he had his guard down around waist height , in our school he would of got his face ripped off .

He was pretty slow as well , I've taught grade three's with two years training that were faster than this so called Sifu .

But yet again another retard stepping into the cage with out a clue what to do on the ground , point well taken .

 

[MJS]

I can see the point you are trying to make , but seriously that Wing Chun guy was crap . That guy is a Sifu that is friggin unbelievable , he must of got his Sifu rank out of the bottom of a box of corn flakes .

I'm just talking about the W.C he was performing in the clip , he had his guard down around waist height , in our school he would of got his face ripped off .

He was pretty slow as well , I've taught grade three's with two years training that were faster than this so called Sifu .

But yet again another retard stepping into the cage with out a clue what to do on the ground , point well taken .

Well, my point was 2 fold. One: We see an awful lot of claims, that WC is an unbeatable art. IMO, there is no ultimate art. Proof further shows the worship that Royce received, yet he lost to Matt Hughes. Now, I'm not taking anything away from Royce, but I'm simply pointing that no art is unbeatable.

My second point was while this may not be the best display of WC in the cage, neither was that cheap attempt from that video clip that was posted, with the WC guy chain punching the other guy while in the mount. Basically it was an attempt to discredit BJJ/MMA.

IMHO, I feel that everyone can benefit from any style. If I didn't think so, then I wouldn't cross train, and I doubt anyone else would either. Whats sad, is that there're so many people wearing rose colored glasses on here, its amazing. And its not limited to WC either. There're just as many wearing them in the Kenpo world as well.

I'll use this as another example. Someone can go to med. school and become a doctor. In Sijes' world, that is all you need. Just a general doctor. Yet some go on to further their studies and become a specialist in a certain area. Goes to show that a regular doc. can't always give the best advise. If he can't, he usually suggests going to a specialist. He recommends someone to go to. No different here. As a Kenpo guy, I have a number of takedown defenses. Yet, if I want to further expand on that, I go to a grappler, the specialist on the ground. Same with a knife. Kenpo has knife in it, yet, I can and do, go to Arnis and a few other FMAs to expand on that.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I like your analogy. You have some who are general Martial Artist. They train a little boxing, hung gar and aikido. Then you have some who are specialist they train or specialize only Judo or Only Tai Chi. Its best to learn from a specialist in martial arts then a person who studies a little bit of everything from numerous systems. But any way nothing wrong with learning a little from other arts.

I personally have no problem with BJJ. If you practice BJJ your probably a better wrestler than me. But I am the type who dislikes the whole ground thing. I don't really like ground fighting. I perfer punches and kicks flying and blocks and deflections intercepting. Thats what I like to see. People transition from stance to stance in hand to hand combat. As for BJJ I personally think a Judo or Japanese Jutjitsu or Aikijuijitsu would be a better art than BJJ...thats my opinion i could be wrong. But the art really depends on the person.

But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!

Just my opinion. MMA guys seem more condition and better fighters than BJJ guys. But I willing to test your skill sometime. Very interesting. I cant wait to try this one MMA school in my town. It looks interesting from the site. An it seems like its great place to be to have constant sparring partners!

But ne way. I just don't really like how wrestling looks. To me its okay if I am fighting a smaller opponent I would want to wrestle but someone alot bigger than me I feel no matter how much I practice BJJ it would be useless against a gigantic sumo wrestler or 6'4" football player!

Just my opinion I could be wrong...

Actually the first video wasn't really a slam against BJJ. Actually it shows a guy getting taking to the ground and pounded! He wasn't doing Chain punches on the ground though!

Well, my point was 2 fold. One: We see an awful lot of claims, that WC is an unbeatable art. IMO, there is no ultimate art. Proof further shows the worship that Royce received, yet he lost to Matt Hughes. Now, I'm not taking anything away from Royce, but I'm simply pointing that no art is unbeatable.

My second point was while this may not be the best display of WC in the cage, neither was that cheap attempt from that video clip that was posted, with the WC guy chain punching the other guy while in the mount. Basically it was an attempt to discredit BJJ/MMA.

IMHO, I feel that everyone can benefit from any style. If I didn't think so, then I wouldn't cross train, and I doubt anyone else would either. Whats sad, is that there're so many people wearing rose colored glasses on here, its amazing. And its not limited to WC either. There're just as many wearing them in the Kenpo world as well.

I'll use this as another example. Someone can go to med. school and become a doctor. In Sijes' world, that is all you need. Just a general doctor. Yet some go on to further their studies and become a specialist in a certain area. Goes to show that a regular doc. can't always give the best advise. If he can't, he usually suggests going to a specialist. He recommends someone to go to. No different here. As a Kenpo guy, I have a number of takedown defenses. Yet, if I want to further expand on that, I go to a grappler, the specialist on the ground. Same with a knife. Kenpo has knife in it, yet, I can and do, go to Arnis and a few other FMAs to expand on that.

 

[mook jong man]

Interesting video... It turns out this Falkner guy has been training WC since 83 and has also studied with Lo Man Kam. He has also thought the military-Navy Seals teams 2 and 4.

If he's been training since 1983 that is very bloody sad mate , purely from the vision of him training in his school he hasn't even got basic speed . If I can see every single hand technique like I could with that guy then you are not fast in my opinion .

I'm just comparing to the speed of my own instructors who's movements were pretty much a blur , and they didn't go around calling themselves a Sifu , they were just instructors . As for teaching the Navy Seals he must of pulled a pretty good con job to get that gig .

Its just very dissappointing to see , that some one with a mediocre skill level is handed the rank of Sifu , this sort of thing is an epidemic , not just in Wing Chun , but across the martial arts world .

People in our system after about 20 years are lucky to be called a junior master and that is only if you are up to standard and have been thoroughly tested by both Sifu and Sigung .

The ranks these days are given out far too easily in my opinion and I think it is only going to get worse , because we are ruled by the mighty dollar .

 

[The Last Legionary]

:dramaqueen:opcorn::sadsong:

 

[MJS]

I like your analogy. You have some who are general Martial Artist. They train a little boxing, hung gar and aikido. Then you have some who are specialist they train or specialize only Judo or Only Tai Chi. Its best to learn from a specialist in martial arts then a person who studies a little bit of everything from numerous systems. But any way nothing wrong with learning a little from other arts.

I personally have no problem with BJJ. If you practice BJJ your probably a better wrestler than me. But I am the type who dislikes the whole ground thing. I don't really like ground fighting. I perfer punches and kicks flying and blocks and deflections intercepting. Thats what I like to see. People transition from stance to stance in hand to hand combat. As for BJJ I personally think a Judo or Japanese Jutjitsu or Aikijuijitsu would be a better art than BJJ...thats my opinion i could be wrong. But the art really depends on the person.

But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!

Just my opinion. MMA guys seem more condition and better fighters than BJJ guys. But I willing to test your skill sometime. Very interesting. I cant wait to try this one MMA school in my town. It looks interesting from the site. An it seems like its great place to be to have constant sparring partners!

But ne way. I just don't really like how wrestling looks. To me its okay if I am fighting a smaller opponent I would want to wrestle but someone alot bigger than me I feel no matter how much I practice BJJ it would be useless against a gigantic sumo wrestler or 6'4" football player!

Just my opinion I could be wrong...

Actually the first video wasn't really a slam against BJJ. Actually it shows a guy getting taking to the ground and pounded! He wasn't doing Chain punches on the ground though!

BJJ is only one part of the puzzle for a MMA fighter. Likewise, its the same for me. The thing that seems to be constantly getting missed, either accidentally or on purpose for the sake of arguing, is that nobody said that going to the ground and looking for a submission is the thing to do. I've given examples of what I use it for, so I'm not repeating them again. I, as well as many others, have also said that BJJ is not the only ground art. I guess its been missed that Judo, Sambo and Wrestling have also been suggested. People keep on harping on BJJ.

 

[mook jong man]

The bottom line is if you don't practice some form of ground fighting of some type with your Wing Chun then you are unprepared for reality , and it means you are sailing a boat down that river in Egypt .

DENIAL

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I guess this is in response to me. I have also mentioned Judo and other Arts in past. But right now I am harpening on BJJ for those who it concerns. My Qualifying statement is infact this:

But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!

BJJ is only one part of the puzzle for a MMA fighter. Likewise, its the same for me. The thing that seems to be constantly getting missed, either accidentally or on purpose for the sake of arguing, is that nobody said that going to the ground and looking for a submission is the thing to do. I've given examples of what I use it for, so I'm not repeating them again. I, as well as many others, have also said that BJJ is not the only ground art. I guess its been missed that Judo, Sambo and Wrestling have also been suggested. People keep on harping on BJJ.