Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Steve]

While off topic, regarding the Marines, McMap and BJJ, I found this interesting article from November, 08. http://www.marines.mil/units/marfor...arinesgrapplewithjiu-jitsuindeployeddojo.aspx

Among other things, the article talks about the positive benefits of teaching soldiers grappling, as well as mentioning that BJJ is one of the sub-disciplines included in the MCMAP program.

“It motivated me that I could be a Marine and still do mixed martial arts at the same time,” Mendez said, referring to teaching MCMAP, which counts jiu-jitsu as one of its sub-disciplines. “So it’s very nice to be able to bring this to the Marines while we’re out here in Iraq.”

It’s a fun pastime for Lance Cpl. Dana Hineline, who provides convoy security with CLB-2, but she also sees immediate application of jiu-jitsu to her Marine duties.
“If I ever have to stop someone and doesn’t have a weapon, I’ll be able to take them down,” said Hineline, 20, a native of Kennesaw, Ga. “I have to search females, and sometimes males, and if they get violent I can protect myself and control the situation.”

While the fighting styles are helpful for close-quarters combat, the Marines get other benefits out of the jiu-jitsu discipline.

“I like to focus on the moral and spiritual aspects, as well,” Roeder said. “They really get to know who they are out here and they learn sportsmanship.”

“The more you teach, the more you learn yourself,” said Mendez, who is happy Roeder, someone with similar skill levels, is around to practice with. “We keep each other on our toes.”

And they keep the students on their toes, too, ready to learn and eager to come back for more.

Of course, I feel compelled to add once again the disclaimer: this is not to say that BJJ is the best art around or that anyone not interested in training in BJJ should do so. I'm strictly responding to allegations that BJJ isn't a part of MCMAP and that Marines have no use for it.

Edit: I'm having a great time reading through the Marines website. Here's another article about a soldier's experience with BJJ, MCMAP and MMA training: http://www.marines.mil/units/marforcom/iimef/2ndmlg/Pages/Itallcomesdowntoyou.aspx

 

[elder999]

Of course, I feel compelled to add once again the disclaimer: this is not to say that BJJ is the best art around or that anyone not interested in training in BJJ should do so. I'm strictly responding to allegations that BJJ isn't a part of MCMAP and that Marines have no use for it.

I'll second that-while in its original form, it had a lot of good stand up "judo," most instructors seem to want to go right to the takedown and ground game. For me, this is not desirable for self-defense. On the other hand, learning how to deal with it really requires doing it-being on the ground, on my back, and learning more about repelling takedowns. It just makes sense.....

Is it this:

No, I think she means-since she and Mystic Wolf claim Jim Fung lineage-simplicity, directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength, andpracticality. Universal goals for most martial arts application, and, oddly enough, ones that are readily applied to numerous forms of jujutsu, including Brazilian jujitsu.

Though you're right as well-and, oddly enough, one can find the same principles in the technique of any successful practitioner of any martial art or martial arts system .

....still waiting for Si-Je to deal with the whole "cognitive dissonance" thing...

 

[jarrod]

jadecloudalchemist, i believe si-je studied goshin jujitsu.

jf

 

[elder999]

jadecloudalchemist, i believe si-je studied goshin jujitsu.

jf

....and that's a can of worms that I'll let someone else open up, so it doesn't seem like I'm picking on her.......

......though I have to ask: which one? :lfao:

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Goshin jujutsu meaning self defense jujutsu? I always thought it was correctly written Goshin jutsu not Goshin Jujutsu.

I mean Goshin jutsu is not a particular style its just self defense kinda of like saying Karate or back to Jujutsu again lol.

directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength, andpracticality.

You mean like what the term Ju kinda of means in Judo and Jujutsu?

 

[The Last Legionary]

This is Randor Reporting for WMTV News.
Si-Je has been debunked again. The crowd is hushed as we await her reply. Will it be more anti-bjj jive, more wing chun is awesome rhetoric, or will we be called poopyheads? You can cut the tension with a knife here Howard. This crowd is tense. Earlier today I attempted to lead them through some Brushes Horses Mane, but they were in no mood for that, and threatened my with a rather rude suggetion about where to Strum Lute. Ah, here she comes now. I see she's changed her outfit again, this time it's a lovely silk blue. Such a shame the previos red one had so much mud on it when she left. I doubt she'll ever get the stains out. I'd share some laundry tips, but the last time i tried that she LapSao'd me in the kidney and I've been peeing blood ever since then. I see we're ready to begin again, so for now, thisis Randor signing off for WMTV News.
opcorn::drinkbeer:lfao:

 

[elder999]

What on earth is he doing here? Is your opponent just going to stand there while you flip your legs into the air and jump on the arm?!
How is this akin to WC/WT principle? Apples and Oranges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPSvOTM2lz0.

Well, flying juji gatame, is a high-risk maneuver, and certainly not for self-defense. However, it is used in competition. Neil Adams used it in 1981 to win his World Judo Championship. It's sometimes called a Disvenko, after the Russian judoka who used it in Paris in the 80's.It's been used at the Abu Dhabi submission grappling championships as well:

Here's Rumina Sato doing it in competition.

Here's one that's a little less spectacular.

Here's a rolling armbar from a Japanese judo competition.

 

[jarrod]

i could be mis-quoting her; but i think it was goshin jujitsu. my cpu is slow as hell or else i'd look it up.

jf

 

[elder999]

I hate this guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx864b1eSYY
For the Wing Chunners, instead of locking your ankles out behind them. turn your knees inward like WC basic stance with abduction and use foreward force/pressure with the knees to keep their body weight off you while defending with the hands from your back. Warding off chokes, locks, punches ....

On the other hand, Si-Je, a lot of females find some value in learning to fight from this position, since that's exactly where some rapists might want to end up anyway-and they might just have to. Of course, if you're certain that your WC skills will keep your knees against an assailants body when he's knocking you upside the head and ripping off your clothes with one arm, and forcing your legs apart with the other, well, I wish you all the best at "warding off....etc."

 

[elder999]

i could be mis-quoting her; but i think it was goshin jujitsu. my cpu is slow as hell or else i'd look it up.

jf

Here it is:

1. I trained Goshin Ju-Jitsu for 3 years. I know the entries, and the stratagies behind Ju-Jitsu. Although we diddn't call it "grappling". And we didn't shoot face first into your knees and try to force a takedown. We threw you off a punch or grab. We worked to stay on your side, and such. Yes, I'm aware of this mentality. But, it's flawed in a practical sense. Your opponent is going to hit and kick you with their other hand while your trying to armbar them, and while your using all this energy to get around their body to the side. I'll tell you from personal experience. When the guy is six footish 250 lbs. thats a long walk on the mats to their side, especially when their fighting you. I still have to manuver past legs twice as long as mine, and well whatever. It takes too much time and energy. And while your trying to do all this your getting hit, kneed, kicked, head butted, whatever.

I'd have edited it to the bolded sentence, but I found the rest of it rather illuminating.

In any case, I still have to ask: Which "goshin jujitsu?" :lfao:

Here's an explanation of the term "goshin jujutsu," from Toby Threadgill, sensei:

If a Japanese based martial system is formulated in modern times (post Tokugawa) but is only partially influenced by traditional Nihon jujutsu, it may be more correctly referred to as gendai goshin jujutsu ( modern self defense jujutsu). Gendai goshin jujutsu is usually formulated outside Japan and may include influences from other martial traditions. The popular Gracie/Brazilian jujutsu system, influenced by modern judo, and Danzan ryu, carrying further influences from Indonesian and Okinawan martial traditions are popular examples of gendai goshin jujutsu.

 

[Si-Je]

Pot? Kettle? :lfao:

I'm not even going to get into all your erroneous info on jujutsu, locks, "two-handedness," etc., etc., etc. I'm just going to point out that by your own admission, you've only had 3 years of JJJ training....I don't want to seem condescending or anything, but that's-as jarrod pointed out-really just enough to be competent in this day and age......

Enough for me to reach Sempi and teach it. Sorry if you had to study longer to get it. I've studied several different arts since then, that's when I was a teenager.

The Instructor's Course also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao: ......

Yeah, I see the anti-grappling when they escape from the BJJ armbars on the ground. But, to you it's all just BJJ to you, isn't it?

The Instructor's Course also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao:
I see tons of Judo throws. some BJJ in the nice soft sand and matts, awwwhhh.

THis one looks pretty deadly, even with that soundtrack!

JJJ at one minute, 2:00 and 4:30. neato lots of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrHBrW1Iu0&feature=related

neat to see the guys demonstrating how effective BJJ is against a knife figher. How many times did they get stabbed? Lost count. Will show hubbie that one, he's going to ****!
See JJJ at 3:26 nice classic T-off. and 3:53

I can post lots, and lots, and lots more MCMAP groundfighting that has all the elements of what you've described here as "inefficient," or undesirable-including going into a BJJ guard, "two handed" joint locks, and use of body leverage/torque-of course, that's not all the videos show in some cases, because that's not all MCMAP is-but it is a part of what it is. Heck, I've even found video of two guys grappling from the knees, ala BJJ....

Keep 'em commin'. Doesn't both me. If they decide to add BJJ in MCMAP now, I'm not the one trying to use it in the field. Hubbie, on the other hand just might **** a brick.
But, you are one of the rudest people I've met on here yet. Keep it coming. Show those colors.

 

[Si-Je]

No, I think she means-since she and Mystic Wolf claim Jim Fung lineage-simplicity, directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength, andpracticality. Universal goals for most martial arts application, and, oddly enough, ones that are readily applied to numerous forms of jujutsu, including Brazilian jujitsu....

Prove it. Show me, how those apply to BJJ.
In what BJJ technique uses any one of these principles. Which one's use WC concepts? And how?

....still waiting for Si-Je to deal with the whole "cognitive dissonance" thing...[/quote]

I missed the cognitive dissonance thing, where was that posted?

 

[Si-Je]

Here it is:



I'd have edited it to the bolded sentence, but I found the rest of it rather illuminating.

In any case, I still have to ask: Which "goshin jujitsu?" :lfao:

Here's an explanation of the term "goshin jujutsu," from Toby Threadgill, sensei:

Neither of those. Google Sodai Brock under Goshin Ryu if you'd like. I haven't been able to find a website of his, still looking. Why are you so hung up on the ju-jitsu thing? Must be really important to you, ju-jitsu.
His style incorporated, guess what,? Wing Chun hands. lol! He took Aiki Ju-Jistu, mixed it with WC hands, and Goshin techniques. I took that back in 1995, and guess what? We didn't incorporate ANY BJJ. Whether they do that now I don't know, nor is it any of my concern. I don't train it anymore. I moved on to Wing Chun. I got a taste of it in Shodi Brock's system and finally found a good teacher about 5 years ago.
By the way, I'll answer questions directed at me about my training, thank you. I don't need someone that knows nothing about it speaking for me. Although you do seem to enjoy doing that. lol!

Just wondering, am I filling out an application? Are you hiring me for a job? Then, why you needing my resume? lol!

 

[elder999]

Enough for me to reach Sempi and teach it. Sorry if you had to study longer to get it. I've studied several different arts since then, that's when I was a teenager.

That's too funny. :lfao:

Keep 'em commin'. Doesn't both me. If they decide to add BJJ in MCMAP now, I'm not the one trying to use it in the field. Hubbie, on the other hand just might **** a brick.

Actually, a review of the document I posted a couple of pages ago, Marine Corps Order 1550.54A, The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, pretty well demonstrates that BJJ was part of MCMAP from the beginning.

But, you are one of the rudest people I've met on here yet. Keep it coming. Show those colors.

So what?!! :321:

I mean, this is supposed to be a discussion board-and you've completely derailed the discussion of whether or not the two arts make a compatible mix with your viewpoint. Have you considered just how rude your insistence that you're correct, that your way of doing things is the right way, that your opinion is the only one that's valid are?

I think monopolizing the discussion is the very height of rudeness.

Never mind how many people simply think that you're wrong.

I may be rude: a review of my posts reveals me to be sarcastic, bombastic, condescending and sometimes quite the ***. You should see me at work......:lol:

At least I'm not thick, as well, Nikki.

 

[Si-Je]

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On the other hand, Si-Je, a lot of females find some value in learning to fight from this position, since that's exactly where some rapists might want to end up anyway-and they might just have to. Of course, if you're certain that your WC skills will keep your knees against an assailants body when he's knocking you upside the head and ripping off your clothes with one arm, and forcing your legs apart with the other, well, I wish you all the best at "warding off....etc."

no joke, really?! So the best defense against a rapist that has your pants off and is between your legs with his pecker out and ready is to wrap your legs around his willing and ready waiste and lock your ankles behind his back and lay back and enjoy the ride?!
You've lost your ever living mind!
You keep that man OUT from between your legs, you keep their body weight OFF you. you don't help the penetrate you by going into BJJ "guard".
The whole world has just gone mad to think that BJJ is a style to defend against a rapist.

Here's a neat fact too. We trained a 15 year veteran of the Fort Worth police department and he used to love to give us alot of the police departments hand outs on crimial studies, and phycological profiles of violent offenders.
One study stated that rapists love to take self-defense classes, their favorite, BJJ classes. It's a fact, he showed us the paperwork back in fort worth.
They like the BJJ because it helps them to control the female better and because it's one of the most popular styles right now. And so they can learn to counter all the self-defense most women may use. Just FYI.
So, now. you going to learn what a rapist knows and put yourself more in the position of being raped and "submitted" by learning BJJ and fighting him in this fashion?
Whatever.
Why not take a style that even if a rapist studied it for a couple of months to a year you could still defeat him using the same style?

 

[Si-Je]

That's too funny. :lfao:




Actually, a review of the document I posted a couple of pages ago, Marine Corps Order 1550.54A, The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, pretty well demonstrates that BJJ was part of MCMAP from the beginning.



So what?!! :321:

I mean, this is supposed to be a discussion board-and you've completely derailed the discussion of whether or not the two arts make a compatible mix with your viewpoint. Have you considered just how rude your insistence that you're correct, that your way of doing things is the right way, that your opinion is the only one that's valid are?

I think monopolizing the discussion is the very height of rudeness.

Never mind how many people simply think that you're wrong.

I may be rude: a review of my posts reveals me to be sarcastic, bombastic, condescending and sometimes quite the ***. You should see me at work......:lol:

At least I'm not thick, as well, Nikki.

Like everywhere I post the same people follow just to plug their BJJ and grappling? And you want to post how WC just NEEDS BJJ? lol! cry me a river duder. :sadsong:

And you want to talk about how BJJ merges so easily with WC, then talk about it! Shut the **** up, and prove it! How?! This stupid thread has gone on and on with all this jacking off stupid comments about this and that that has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not the only one here getting waaaaaay off topic, self proclaimed ***.

And what am I wrong about? That MCMAP teaches BJJ too? :vu: I'm so heart broken! lol! I don't care. That's not what my trainer/sifu/husband trained while in MCMAP, and not what he incorporated in it. He was one of several guys working on the thing. Who cares? YOU care.

I've offered several posts of pure WC technique against BJJ, what has been returned? Crap. Just mental masterbation of how it would never work against the greatest stuff in the world, BJJ. No proof. No explaination of WHY the technique won't work. Just jacking off trash talking about nothing. No prof. Blah, blah.
Again, describe or leave a video of BJJ technique and I'll tell you how to counter it with WC. If you don't like it, discuss why it won't work or something else revelent.

You feel special you know my name? Come on down and meet Nikki if your feeling froggy. Meet my husband too, he'll be really happy to see you.

 

[Steve]

Here's a neat fact too. We trained a 15 year veteran of the Fort Worth police department and he used to love to give us alot of the police departments hand outs on crimial studies, and phycological profiles of violent offenders.
One study stated that rapists love to take self-defense classes, their favorite, BJJ classes. It's a fact, he showed us the paperwork back in fort worth.
They like the BJJ because it helps them to control the female better and because it's one of the most popular styles right now. And so they can learn to counter all the self-defense most women may use. Just FYI.
So, now. you going to learn what a rapist knows and put yourself more in the position of being raped and "submitted" by learning BJJ and fighting him in this fashion?
Whatever.
Why not take a style that even if a rapist studied it for a couple of months to a year you could still defeat him using the same style?

Okay. This is where I officially lose my temper and leave the high road to join you in your filth. Disparage the art of BJJ. Fine. I don't care. Unlike you, I'm not emotionally invested in whether my art is better than yours. I have too many things to enjoy about life than to worry about petty crap like that.

But when you insinuate that I and my training partners in some way promote an atmosphere that is tolerant of rapists, I have to say you've crossed a line. You are so insecure and desperate to prove your point you are willing to literally say anything. I pity you. You are pathetic.

Half of my school are police officers, emergency medical workers and firefighters. We have doctors, lawyers, and some of the finest people I have ever had the honor of knowing.

I pity you. I do. I hope you wake up someday and get over yourself.

For what it's worth, though I've tolerated your posts for several weeks now, I have to say I think you're making it all up. I don't think there is a wrestler whose coach told him to avoid drinking water. I don't think you've ever met a bjj purple belt, much less trained with one (or several). I don't believe that you have ever trained with a police officer who showed you these studies. I believe you to be a liar and completely without integrity.

I pity you and the women whom you have brainwashed, and hope someday you figure out what the hell it is that you want. In the meantime, I have no use for you. As far as I'm concerned, you add nothing of value to this site.

 

[Si-Je]

I reply to SteveBJJ's comment on my profile. (since he's on my ignore list and I don't read any of his posts I guess that's the only way he could get his two cents in.)
I never suggested that BJJ condones rape or rapists.
Just stated the statics that rapists train the styles that are the most popular, and that seems to be BJJ at the top of the list right now.
The very design of the fighting style would benefit such an offender very well to those ends. Grappling.
If WC was as popular and widespread such offenders would probably study WC. Maybe they do.

Does BJJ teachers do criminal background checks on their students on sign up? How would anyone know what type of offender a student is? It's a fact and a statstic based on the reasearch of criminology. They interviewed caught and known sex offenders in prison and found out alot of information on these people.
Does that mean even with a criminal background check on students you'll know who is the rapist? No. They may not have gotten arrested or have a report yet.

Take it for what it's worth. Look into it for what's not there if you wish.

 

[Steve]

I reply to SteveBJJ's comment on my profile. (since he's on my ignore list and I don't read any of his posts I guess that's the only way he could get his two cents in.)
I never suggested that BJJ condones rape or rapists.
Just stated the statics that rapists train the styles that are the most popular, and that seems to be BJJ at the top of the list right now.
The very design of the fighting style would benefit such an offender very well to those ends. Grappling.
If WC was as popular and widespread such offenders would probably study WC. Maybe they do.

Does BJJ teachers do criminal background checks on their students on sign up? How would anyone know what type of offender a student is? It's a fact and a statstic based on the reasearch of criminology. They interviewed caught and known sex offenders in prison and found out alot of information on these people.
Does that mean even with a criminal background check on students you'll know who is the rapist? No. They may not have gotten arrested or have a report yet.

Take it for what it's worth. Look into it for what's not there if you wish.

Once again, you can prevaricate all you wish. I think you were very clear in your previous posts. I added negative rep (first for everything) to a post that I feel well deserved it. I signed it, because that's the polite thing to do. My opinion is that you are despicable.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Randor reporting again for WMTV News
I'm coming to you live from under what is left of a conference room table, as the post consumption digested fecal material has hit the large tri bladed air moving device! Blood has now been spilled, and shoes and the feet within them inserted. It is absolute pandimonium here Howard, I even think I saw a midget trying an Insagari Arm Bar on a rare white panda. Awww. Kawai! But I digress.

In this latest exchange of hostilities, SiJe has crossed the line, comparing BJJ practitioners to sex offenders. While the positioning is sometimes similar to what I watch late at night, I've yet to see a BJJ match where they aren't wearing pants. I would hazard a guess that she would be just as irate hould someone point out the similarities of wing chun forms to stoned hippies dancing at Woodstock, but again, I regress.

It's been a long hard fight for this Wing Chun fanatic. She's lost alot of ground, brought tons of public scorn and ridicule on her, yet she keeps on fighting, often flailing blindly at her opponents in what could be called a Blind Mans Lap Sao, what with the previously mentioned high velocity fecal spatter impacting her vision. It's been a brutal fight Howard, yet one must admire the courage, stubornness, the never say quit and yet, the closed minded blind faith that she's projectng.

I'm trying to work my way across the room to get an interview in with Elder who is smoking what appears to be a large and possibly contraband Cuban, however the carnage is just horrible. I haven't seen a food fight like this since my last Kenpo camp when they had some GM's in for crab legs. Stuff is everywhere.

Oh. One moment please. Yes, I've recieved word that we may be seeing the Mystical one himself pop in soon. His rare appearances usually come from a need to give his wife some time to remove her feet from her mouth, a techique I don't often see in Wing Chun outside her style. I'm going to try and find a safe location for myself and my camera crew as the carniage here continues to brew up here on the WingChun battlefield.

This is Randor, for WMTV News signing off and ducking for cover!