Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Seeker]

I think the problem found in a lot of arts is looking for things in the art that aren't there.

I was told that a quan sua can stop a double leg takedown; I was also told in Judo that ippon seoinage can be used against the rightcross, and with TKD kicks no one can get close enough to punch or grab you... etc.

Much of it sounds plausible; some of it can be pulled off in the ideal training environment with a compliant opponent. But in reality, not so much.

 

[Si-Je]

So, I have more questions-I'll spare you the overly personal, intrusive and downright disrespectful ones like "where is your hu-er-SIFU stationed, and what rank is he?"

I am....confused, though. I've seen the MCMAP material, both throught MCMAP trained people and the manual(s). Isn't a large component of it Brazilian jujitsu derived ground-fighting? Being a "4th degree MCMAP instructor" would mean that he has BJJ as a component in his skill-set. I won't say that he's diluted or polluted his "pure wing chun," but I have to wonder just how it is he manages to keep his peanut butter off his chocolate, so to speak.....:lol:
[/size]

No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.
I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home.

 

[Si-Je]

Here again the :BSmeter: approaches dangerous levels. Have you ever watched the UFC or other MMA competition? How about a real fight at the bar or wherever? Ever notice that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight aside a few rules? The results you believe from these punches and kicks less often as dramatic as you seem to believe....but the funniest part was the suggestion of Tan-ing out of an armbar in that earlier post! That one was priceless! So far, that is the only move you have picked apart from BJJ and now because Yoshi puts up a 30 second video of a guy in the mount, you think BJJ doesn't have an answer for it. That shows ignorance of BJJ....LOT's of it....To borrow from MJS, I am speechless...

MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.

 

[Si-Je]

Soooo......I've got questions.

Like, which is it, 2-6 or 5-8 "pounds of pressure?"

Like, which is it "pounds of pressure," or "pounds of force?"


Which joint are you referring to? Does it take the same amount (of force, pressure or whatever) to break a finger as it does an elbow? What about a shoulder?
What about a knee?

Which anatomy text did you derive that little factoid from?

Do you mean "break the joint," or "rupture the articular cartilage capsule?"

Perhaps you mean rupture the medial ligament and collateral ligaments, also called the "joint capsule", releasing synovial fluid though I doubt it-maybe "rupture the annular ligament?" Maybe just "rupture the lateral epicondyle," though, again, I doubt it.

Have you ever actually "broken a joint," or had one broken?

Do you mean "use the whole body" for the movement devoted to the kansetsu waza, or use the whole body to control the other person's body?

Or neither, perhaps?



But, if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with a "chunner" cross training in, say, Japanese jujutsu, or judo-it's just BJJ you have a beef with, right?

Depends on the joint and the muscle mass around the joint.
I like JJJ I'm just not a fan of alot of mixing WC with BJJ. I don't see the two mixing well, and find that WC "answers" most attacks that you come across in a very effecient way.
I don't see BJJ as anywhere near as effecient. Just an opinion.

To use your whole body to lock out an elbow is not effecient in my view.

 

[Si-Je]

The bottom line is if you don't practice some form of ground fighting of some type with your Wing Chun then you are unprepared for reality , and it means you are sailing a boat down that river in Egypt .

DENIAL

I don't think anyone's saying that. Groundfighting has been apart of MA forever. I just study a different ground fighting style.

And for Elder, if you want to know who he's studied under it's been posted on the forum many times. And no, he's not active duty anymore. 18 years was enough for him. lol! After Iraq part one, and Afganastan he left service.
Ask Force Recon how much they use BJJ. lol!

 

[MJS]

MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.

I would tell you a possible solution, but why bother...you'd just argue and disregard it like you have everything else.

 

[jarrod]

No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.
I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home.

nothing in marine corps training is "just for fun". we covered very simple guard passing in boot camp, though it wasn't the focus in our hand-to-hand.

jf

 

[elder999]

No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.

It was my understanding that BJJ was incorporated as part of the curriculum, in part because of the Marines possibly being deployed in situations where they weren't actually "in actual combat," or, at least, in situations where less than lethal force might be in order.In any case, apparently the Marines do think it would be useful at some time, because they did make it part of the curriculum.

Of course, even if it's just "a drill for fun," it becomes part of the skillset-especially that of a "4th degree black belt instructor."

In any case, here's what Lt. Col. Shusko, one of the main creators and designers of the program, has to say about MCMAP and BJJ:

Among the fighting styles appropriated for MCMAP, Col. Shusko demonstrates the grappling techniques of Brazilian jujitsu, which mostly consists of ground-fighting submission holds and joint locks that he likes to call "wristy twisties."

These techniques are designed to control the enemy, to break bones and, if necessary, to kill.
Col. Shusko also teaches throwing techniques according to the Japanese art of judo and kicking skills from the Korean style of self-defense known as tae kwon do.
In addition, Thai boxing -- with its emphasis on elbow and knee strikes to inflict damage -- figures into the MCMAP curriculum.
"We did not invent anything," Col. Shusko says, "Just took the best and put it into our program."
Since lethal force is not always needed in defensive situations, the colonel schools his trainees in techniques similar to those used by U.S. police officers to make arrests or subdue suspects.
But MCMAP training involves more than merely learning how to fight. It's about learning how to be a modern-day warrior -- tough, confident and able without the ego-gratifying need to prove it.
It's about entering a bar and knowing you can handle any situation that may occur, not sizing up the competition and picking a fight, Col. Shusko says.

Seen here


Of course, you can also view the protocol for MCMAP online, at Marine Corps Order 1500.54. Please note that on page 24, where the requirements for gray belt are listed, a "Groundfighting" component appears for the first time. In it, the trainee is expected to execute an "armbar from the mount," and an "armbar from the guard" terms that, while no longer exclusive to BJJ, come to the lexicon directly from BJJ. Of course, growing up, I knew the guard as do jime, or do osae, but they were pretty much illegal in judo.

Please also note that the groundfighting component continues and expands through rank requirements listed through 1st degree black belt, including the infamous "triangle choke." :lol:

I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home.

"Ignorant questions?" Isn't that "somewhat redundant," perhaps even "overly redundant?" :lfao:

I mean, not actually being a Marine-I only work with a few of them from time to time-I'll admit my ignorance;that's why I'm asking questions. Of course, my confusion stems from what little I do know-having been told and shown as much by a few good men, and seen for myself in manuals and on video. I anxiously await enlightenment....:asian:

nothing in marine corps training is "just for fun". we covered very simple guard passing in boot camp, though it wasn't the focus in our hand-to-hand.

jf

I'm sure a few other Marines will chime in, if only to supplement my obviously limited knowledge. Thanks, Jarrod.

 

[elder999]

And for Elder, if you want to know who he's studied under it's been posted on the forum many times.!

Actually, while I may have missed it, after having reviewed all of your and Mystic Wolf's posts, I have to say that, no, that information hasn't been posted on the forum "many times."

Of course, just typing the names would have been just as easy as your answer, and WAAAAAY easier than searching for the information.

 

[elder999]

Depends on the joint and the muscle mass around the joint.

Well, no-while the muscle mass and the use of it may prevent the joint in question from being locked, the amount of force required to "break" the joint isn't dependent upon muscle mass at all, once the lock has been achieved.

I like JJJ I'm just not a fan of alot of mixing WC with BJJ I don't see the two mixing well, and find that WC "answers" most attacks that you come across in a very effecient way.
I don't see BJJ as anywhere near as effecient. Just an opinion.

Hmmm....does that mean that you're in favor of mixing WC with JJJ? Or not?

WC "answers" most standing attacks, and it's principles can be applied by the adept person on the ground, but I don't (and here's where I'm gonna chime in on the original question) see that mixing the two is a bad thing at all-you train in BJJ and you learn more about what the person who has that kind of trianing will do on the ground, and other ways of countering it. You also get comfortable with being on the ground, so there isn't so much panic in trying to regain your feet in a self-defense situation. And, since there is grappling in WC, albeit of the stand-up variety, it blends nicely with takedown techniques found in judo, JJJ and more traditional BJJ-that is to say, BJJ not geared towards MMA and tournaments.

To use your whole body to lock out an elbow is not effecient in my view.

Still not really sure what you mean by this-or sure that you know what you mean by it, at any rate.

"Using the whole body" in any technique, is what some would call the very height of efficiency-but that's almost another discussion.......

 

[KamonGuy2]

I can't believe we are still here.

I as looking through youtub last night and I actually found seminars hosted jointly by Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie

I know that James Sinclair invites Rick Young (black belt BJJ) to help teach his students

I just think Si jee is very proud of wing chun and his afraid of 'polluting' it with another style

The point she is missing is that wing chun has already been polluted

If you go back a hundred years, most karate systems will remain the same (same moves etc)
Wing chun however will be extremely different. Even Ip Chun mentions that chum kil was changed from when his father taught it to various practitioners, and that was 40/50 years ago

I understand that people want to get away from complimenting their art with another style for fear of being labelled MMA, but sometimes you just have to know the arts limits

I really do hate this high almighty attitude that wing chun is the best thing out there. It is a great art and very useful, but it is not flawless

For further clarification just type in wing chun vs into youtube and see where people fail (rigid guards, fixed traditional moves etc)

BJJ practitioners are extremely humble and most of the time have no need to argue about these kind of things. They know that realistically they need to strike and so most BJJ guys take up boxing or MT or karate for something different

They don't spend hours arguing on a forum about the purity of BJJ. Those who do train in boxing etc - they are still good BJJ practitioners (ie the boxing hasn't taken anything away from their art), so why should wing chunners be any different.

Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol

 

[profesormental]

Kamon Guy, I agree with your assessment.

It is a personal decision to train in other methods, and Wing Chun changes with each passing generation. And that is ok.

As mentioned before, in the 50's and 60's, there were so few martial artists that most would train with everyone they could, just to have people to train with! They shared and learned because they were very dedicated to becoming better.

Well, that is an opportunity that we still have. And I decide to take it.

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

 

[elder999]

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get owned in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:

 

[Seeker]

profesormental[/LEFT];1117424]
The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

Some people will take the journey across the river, but will refuse to leave the boat believing the boat to be the destination?

 

[MJS]

I can't believe we are still here.

In all honesty, neither can I. I think I will be bowing out of this thread. The horse is dead 10 times over and won't be coming back to life.

I as looking through youtub last night and I actually found seminars hosted jointly by Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie

I know that James Sinclair invites Rick Young (black belt BJJ) to help teach his students

I just think Si jee is very proud of wing chun and his afraid of 'polluting' it with another style

The point she is missing is that wing chun has already been polluted

If you go back a hundred years, most karate systems will remain the same (same moves etc)
Wing chun however will be extremely different. Even Ip Chun mentions that chum kil was changed from when his father taught it to various practitioners, and that was 40/50 years ago

I understand that people want to get away from complimenting their art with another style for fear of being labelled MMA, but sometimes you just have to know the arts limits

I really do hate this high almighty attitude that wing chun is the best thing out there. It is a great art and very useful, but it is not flawless

For further clarification just type in wing chun vs into youtube and see where people fail (rigid guards, fixed traditional moves etc)

Great points. I doubt that there is anything 100% pure out there. As proof of that, if that were the case, then every (insert art here) would be teaching the same. Every Kenpo guy would look identical, every TKD guy would, as well as every boxer, BJJ guy, etc. It is nice to know though, that the folks you mention above, are open minded enough to expand their WC and bring in a BJJ person.

BJJ practitioners are extremely humble and most of the time have no need to argue about these kind of things. They know that realistically they need to strike and so most BJJ guys take up boxing or MT or karate for something different

I've seen quite a few that seem to think that you dont need striking, and that only BJJ will suffice. I think we saw proof of this with Royce and Matt. Royces striking skill was less than impressive IMO.

They don't spend hours arguing on a forum about the purity of BJJ. Those who do train in boxing etc - they are still good BJJ practitioners (ie the boxing hasn't taken anything away from their art), so why should wing chunners be any different.

Oh, you'd be surprised. Of course, I'm sure there are some that do fall into the category that you mention though, and those are the more open minded ones.

Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol

Thank you for the offer.

 

[Si-Je]

Well, no-while the muscle mass and the use of it may prevent the joint in question from being locked, the amount of force required to "break" the joint isn't dependent upon muscle mass at all, once the lock has been achieved.
.......

sigh, so you say. I'll go with the guy that's studied body mechanics. I'll go with the JJJ teachers that taught me those techniques in the first place. I'll go with my own experiece of achieving the joint lock will little force and little effort. Chin Na makes these techniques even more effecient.

Hmmm....does that mean that you're in favor of mixing WC with JJJ? Or not? ........

No. I tried to do that when I first started training WC. It doesn't work simply because you have to use both hands to lock out the joint. you use both hands with kote gashie, both hands with armbars, both hands with chokes, both hand with throws. WC/WT does this with one hand. same joint lock just very small and subtle differences.

WC "answers" most standing attacks, and it's principles can be applied by the adept person on the ground, but I don't (and here's where I'm gonna chime in on the original question) see that mixing the two is a bad thing at all-you train in BJJ and you learn more about what the person who has that kind of trianing will do on the ground, and other ways of countering it. You also get comfortable with being on the ground, so there isn't so much panic in trying to regain your feet in a self-defense situation. And, since there is grappling in WC, albeit of the stand-up variety, it blends nicely with takedown techniques found in judo, JJJ and more traditional BJJ-that is to say, BJJ not geared towards MMA and tournaments........

Do you train wing chun?
Well, there's alot of misconceptions on WC especially WT and the ground fighting developed by Sifu Emin. We teach beginning anti-grappling techniques to students from the outset but the really good stuff you can't get into until the student learns Chun Kiu.
I see that mixing the two is detrimental if your going to learn the last range in WC/WT. By replacing grappling with WC/WT techniques at that range teachers are losing this range by simply not teaching it, and replacing it with BJJ. I don't like to see this happen, especially since I'm just now really learning this range of WC/WT combat.
The good thing out of all this is that chatting on here has refined my WC/WT theory especially in advanced anti-grappling. You really just can't explain it online or in videos. You HAVE to feel it. We drilled Bong Girk last night on the ground and it was awesome! That 'leg chi sau" I keep referring too. Like bong sau with your leg. exactly like bong sau on with your leg and used against grappling technqiues to "pass your guard", get between your legs, pass a leg to get to your side, and the mount. Thwarts these attempts very well.

Still not really sure what you mean by this-or sure that you know what you mean by it, at any rate........

What on earth is he doing here? Is your opponent just going to stand there while you flip your legs into the air and jump on the arm?!
How is this akin to WC/WT principle? Apples and Oranges.

I hate this guard.

For the Wing Chunners, instead of locking your ankles out behind them. turn your knees inward like WC basic stance with abduction and use foreward force/pressure with the knees to keep their body weight off you while defending with the hands from your back. Warding off chokes, locks, punches just like chi sau.

This looks like a great way to get your neck broken. If the guy is strong enough to pick you up by the very legs you latch around his waiste then he can slam you on your back/neck to the ground. How is this advantageous? How do you defend against another person that may help him attack you while your on the ground messing with the first attacker?
Then as he changes his leg position his face is open for punches. What if a WC'er was standing there and chainpunching his face? Would he remember this technique that takes a long time to switch from one position to another? Seems like alot of work just to get an ankle lock. And the opponent can get you in the very same lock. lol! I've seen that happen in fights plenty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiafSZMl5Kk

"Using the whole body" in any technique, is what some would call the very height of efficiency-but that's almost another discussion.......

Not like that. Too much work, takes too long, too many movements.

 

[MJS]

Kamon Guy, I agree with your assessment.

It is a personal decision to train in other methods, and Wing Chun changes with each passing generation. And that is ok.

As mentioned before, in the 50's and 60's, there were so few martial artists that most would train with everyone they could, just to have people to train with! They shared and learned because they were very dedicated to becoming better.

Well, that is an opportunity that we still have. And I decide to take it.

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

For the sake of sticking with the forum rules, I'll modify what I'd really like to say. LOL! Serious though, I think that you see a few different groups. They are as follows...

Group 1: This group is dead set against anything other than what is contained in their base art. They will not allow anything to 'taint' their base art.

Group 2: This group is open minded and is open to suggestions from others. They have no issues with working with others, and if it means adding in something that is not part of their base art, they do so.

 

[MJS]

That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get owned in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:

You're lucky I wasn't drinking anything when I read this, otherwise, you'd owe me a new keyboard.

 

[Si-Je]

That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get owned in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:

Hasn't happened yet. lol!
You really pride yourself on being rude, and assuming you know what another fighter will do whom you've never met. Just making an *** out of u but not me. lol!

He's used what he knows in true combat and didn't have a lick of use for BJJ in Recon. Get real.

 

[Si-Je]

For the sake of sticking with the forum rules, I'll modify what I'd really like to say. LOL! Serious though, I think that you see a few different groups. They are as follows...

Group 1: This group is dead set against anything other than what is contained in their base art. They will not allow anything to 'taint' their base art.

Group 2: This group is open minded and is open to suggestions from others. They have no issues with working with others, and if it means adding in something that is not part of their base art, they do so.

There is NO group 1. Apparently just me and Sifu. Yoshi seem to agree. It doesn't have anything to do with "tainting" my base art. It has to do with USING my base art to the full extent of it's technique.

It seems that Group 2 either trains WC as a secondary art to give stand up "game" to their base art of BJJ or grappling. Or they just don't have any faith in WC when it comes to the street or the ground. Don't bother to learn to strike at grappling range, learn the chin na starting from Chum Kiu. Their willing to learn a whole 'nutta art to supplement their WC/WT but are not openminded enough to even attempt to apply the WC principles and concepts to ground combat. Or even TRY the anti-grappling in the Kwoon/Gym.