Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Yoshiyahu]

I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?

 

[dungeonworks]

I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?

It definitely would, even though he is stuck in one of the most (if not the most) dominant position. There are sweeps he could try by sensing the weight disbursement, toss him to the heavy side. He could also get an arm under his groin and try to shoot out the backside and take his back. It's not impossible, but can be difficult. Guys escape from the same position all the time in MMA bouts, which look more organized than the mess in that video. Heck, they were chain punches started at the opposite side of the ring! Could have FedEx'ed a letter telling him what he was doing and when he would be there! LOL

 

[mook jong man]

One things for sure man , if that bloke on the bottom knew how to bridge , he wouldn't of wore most of them punches . Because the guy on top would have been too busy trying to keep his balance and would of had to post instead of being able to rain punches down at will .

 

[jarrod]

One things for sure man , if that bloke on the bottom knew how to bridge , he wouldn't of wore most of them punches . Because the guy on top would have been too busy trying to keep his balance and would of had to post instead of being able to rain punches down at will .

some guys have learned to ride out a bridge & keep throwing punches. i've started placing my knee in the small of their back before i bridge to give them an extra push & make sure their hands are on the mat & not my beautiful face! :lol:

jf

 

[mook jong man]

some guys have learned to ride out a bridge & keep throwing punches. i've started placing my knee in the small of their back before i bridge to give them an extra push & make sure their hands are on the mat & not my beautiful face! :lol:

jf

Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?

 

[Hagakure]

Yes, you probably will get flamed by some on here, due to the fact, that supposedly, you don't need anything, except the WC anti grappling.

No worries though, as you won't get flamed by me. Keep on doing what you're doing. IMHO, you're bettering yourself and making yourself a more well rounded fighter.

That's the plan mate, just have to work off my Xmas-belly first.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Mook Jong when you speak of bridge are you speaking of from a standing posistion when the guy was on his feet chainpunching like crazy...I think jarrod is speaking from the ground perspective on how to get out submissive posistion when the bloke was getting his face pounded to mat!

Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?

 

[Si-Je]

Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.

No, some don’t feel that way.

See heres the difference. I could take a 3 day seminar with Royce Gracie or any other BJJ black belt, and walk away with a number of things to work on. However, I would not assume that I knew everything there was to know about BJJ. I would not say that A, B, C didn't work, just from that 3 day event. My point is this....the longer you work with someone, the better understanding you will have. How long, honestly, have you really studied the art of BJJ? Working with someone once a week, for an hour vs. someone who attends BJJ class 2-3 or more times a week...well, there will be obvious differences in knowledge and understanding as well as application.

No, I haven’t studied the art of BJJ, and I don’t want to. That’s the point. I feel that I’ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it’s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don’t need to convince me that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t agree that the two arts mix well. That’s just my opinion.
I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that’s all grand. But, I’m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea. J

Ummm.....I'm really speechless.

I really don’t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I’ll just take it for what it’s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don’t like the technique or don’t understand it, ask. If you don’t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren’t interested, or that don’t train WC/WT.

is approaching meltdown!

Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don’t like it, that’s your thing. You don’t understand it, ask. You don’t care, I won’t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that’s something I just don’t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn’t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that’s your choice, not mine.

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

 

[elder999]

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

Oh, the irony.:lfao:

 

[Steve]

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

If my kids ever ask me to define 'irony' I'll show them this thread, culminating in this statement.

 

[Si-Je]

May every fighter train and depend on BJJ! lol!

:cheers:

 

[Steve]

Oh, the irony.:lfao:

Wow... I just noticed that you and I had virtually the same reaction.

May every fighter train and depend on BJJ! lol!

Once again, no one's saying that you or anyone should crosstrain. Only that crosstraining is undeniably beneficial. Bruce Lee benefited from it. Sifu Emin Boztep did it and benefited. The guys in the very videos you posted have benefited from it. Your husband by your account, has benefited from it. And by your own words, whether you admit it or not, you have benefited from it.

I just watched Meet the Robinsons with my kids. Great movie, if you haven't seen it. There's this one scene that reminded me of this thread. In it, the villain (who is eventually redeemed) is flashing back to his childhood. He's walking through the halls of his school and the kids are all saying hi. One kid says, "Hey scooter (or whatever his name was). You wanna come by after school and play?" His response in voice over, "They all hated me."

This thread is kind of like that. It's become unecessarily adverserial, where you have set yourself up against everyone else and even when it's clear to everyone that the difference between your position and mine (or MJS's or whomever's) is insignificant, you refuse to see it. MJS virtually parroted your position back to you and you still argued with him and told him he was wrong.

For me, if I had the time and money, I'd study as many diverse styles of MA as I can, if for no other reason that personal edification. I train in BJJ only because, like you, I have limited time and picked the one I like the best. Unlike you, I'm not so insecure that I must continually assert that the style in which I train is the best. I'll be the first to say that BJJ by itself has gaps that, were I interested in self defense training, I'd definitely work to supplement.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

i think they hate your post...lol...

No, some don’t feel that way.



No, I haven’t studied the art of BJJ, and I don’t want to. That’s the point. I feel that I’ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it’s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don’t need to convince me that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t agree that the two arts mix well. That’s just my opinion.
I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that’s all grand. But, I’m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea. J


I really don’t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I’ll just take it for what it’s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don’t like the technique or don’t understand it, ask. If you don’t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren’t interested, or that don’t train WC/WT.


Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don’t like it, that’s your thing. You don’t understand it, ask. You don’t care, I won’t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that’s something I just don’t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn’t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that’s your choice, not mine.

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

 

[Steve]

Oh, Yoshi. It's not about hate or like. Maybe that's the crux of the misunderstanding. Where you and si-je look at this thread focusing on only what is different, the entire spirit of this thread is to look for what is common and can be universally helpful. Speaking only for myself, it just makes me sad and tired to see you two congratulating yourselves for being so resolute in your knowledge that the Earth is flat. At least you have each other.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook Jong when you speak of bridge are you speaking of from a standing posistion when the guy was on his feet chainpunching like crazy...I think jarrod is speaking from the ground perspective on how to get out submissive posistion when the bloke was getting his face pounded to mat!

No mate , I am specifically talking about the wrestlers bridge , not the bridge you are thinking of in Wing Chun where you are trying to gain contact with the opponents forearms .

 

[Si-Je]

I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?

ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed.
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.

 

[Si-Je]

Oh, the irony.:lfao:

The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.
If your art has a weakness (or just your application of that art) you learn how to overcome that weakness.

The irony is that most of WT/WC technique that is taught is being watered down for this very reason. That people don't have the patience or vision to finish their training before they seek answers from another art. And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break)
You say BJJ uses sensitivity and fluidity, I haven't felt that yet from such a practitioner, and yes, they were people that trained 3-5 days a week and had reached high rank in the art. And the use of Brute Strength is rampant in BJJ, for everytime I use WC guard on the ground they always try to jump in on my knees and break through my "guard", when that doesn't work they try to pry the knees apart, using, guess what? Brute strength. When that doesn't work, they try to pick me up (because I'm small I guess) for a body slam, again, brute strength (I couldn't pick up my Sifu in that fashion!)
The two styles conflict drastically in concepts and fighting/defense approaches. Why not take another art that complements your own more? That would flow o and from WT/WC concepts more effeciently.

Mook Jong Man, I was wondering about that defense to a mounted attacker with the clinch you described.
Have you ever tried to latch the opponent as they punch down on you while bucking your hip up under him?

like say: they throw a hook punch and you dai sau with the left hand, then latch the punching arm as you buck up from under them with your right hip to roll them over. You can follow through with punching on the free hand. Just something to play with when you get a chance. You can do this off a straight punch too, using Tan sau, or pak sau. Buck with the side hip opposite from the arm your latching. (latching usually ends up at the elbow or bicep when in this close, and that's all good.)

Sifu says: for the chunners, "you use Chi Sau principles for your entire body such as a when your bucking, have the hips bucking upwards in a circular motion while your re-directing the punches with your arms. Play with chi sau using your whole body to counter BJJ. BJJ people I don't expect you to understand this because you don't understand chi sau principles. You learn to do chi sau with your whole body on the ground. Arms, legs, hips, shoulders, head, everything in unison depending on the mount and the positioning of the opponent. Where their body weight is centralized, and where it's going."

 

[Hand Sword]

:sadsong:

I can't believe the thread is still going on. I'm going to call the animal cops. This horse is not only dead but continues to be tortured!

 

[jarrod]

Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?

i mean if the guy has a high mount & is just leaning back a bit like a cowboy on a bull. if he has his hooks in he can't really sit up to punch (though he can chop away with a much slower but more powerful strikes).

the knee isn't quite a nudge, it's more of a brace. if you push with your knee, your leg alone won't be strong enough to move his back muscles. so instead you want to place your knee in their back, so that when you bridge you are using the strength in both legs as well as your hips. that should be strong enough to drive them forward.

a good approach to jujitsu for me has been to analyze which muscles are used in my body vs. what my opponent is using. then i want to make sure i'm using each muscle group that can possibly help me, while not needlessly tensing other muscles. jujitsu can work against a stronger person because it isolates the opponent's limbs while maximizing the jujitsuka's placement of weight, use of leverage, & use of strength. figuring out the most efficient way to use your strength is vastly different from relying on brute strength, which is my main contention with this thread.

jf

 

[mook jong man]

i mean if the guy has a high mount & is just leaning back a bit like a cowboy on a bull. if he has his hooks in he can't really sit up to punch (though he can chop away with a much slower but more powerful strikes).

the knee isn't quite a nudge, it's more of a brace. if you push with your knee, your leg alone won't be strong enough to move his back muscles. so instead you want to place your knee in their back, so that when you bridge you are using the strength in both legs as well as your hips. that should be strong enough to drive them forward.

a good approach to jujitsu for me has been to analyze which muscles are used in my body vs. what my opponent is using. then i want to make sure i'm using each muscle group that can possibly help me, while not needlessly tensing other muscles. jujitsu can work against a stronger person because it isolates the opponent's limbs while maximizing the jujitsuka's placement of weight, use of leverage, & use of strength. figuring out the most efficient way to use your strength is vastly different from relying on brute strength, which is my main contention with this thread.

jf

Ah , now I understand , thank you sir , sounds great I will try that out next time I grapple .

Yes Si-Je I have done the technique you describe , which does work well if the attacker is throwing circular strikes at your head , you can just latch that arm down as you bridge and roll .

But if your attacker is another Wing Chun guy , then you are going to be under a barrage of centreline punches , in which case you might be able to do Tan / Bong from the bottom , whilst bridging your hips up like a man possesed or shielding and clinching so that you can pull him down close so that you can roll him .