Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Si-Je]

Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol

I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Table for 2!

 

[Si-Je]

Actually, while I may have missed it, after having reviewed all of your and Mystic Wolf's posts, I have to say that, no, that information hasn't been posted on the forum "many times."

Of course, just typing the names would have been just as easy as your answer, and WAAAAAY easier than searching for the information.

Not that it will matter to you or anyone here.
He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe. When he trained with Boztepe that's when he was helping to develop MCMAP, they use some of the anti-grappling although they may not reconize it as that. BJJ wasn't even around when hubbie was training in the marine corps. Several seargents worked on developing MCMAP. They mixed Aiki Ju-Jitsu, muy tai, Kempo, Judo, and yes, even a bit of WC.

This has been stated by me several times here. Right here in the WC forum.

 

[MJS]

I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like.

Difference. We can have someone who is totally clueless and blind and someone who is still loyal, but has their eyes open.

Sorry, I disagree with you sije. I'm loyal to Kenpo. I've been doing it for 24yrs. I'm just not wearing rose colored glasses and keep my cup empty and open to new things.

That is another goal of the arts...to be humble, and to accept the fact that nobody or no one is perfect or ultimate.

 

[elder999]

Not that it will matter to you or anyone here.
He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe. When he trained with Boztepe that's when he was helping to develop MCMAP, they use some of the anti-grappling although they may not reconize it as that. BJJ wasn't even around when hubbie was training in the marine corps. Several seargents worked on developing MCMAP. They mixed Aiki Ju-Jitsu, muy tai, Kempo, Judo, and yes, even a bit of WC.

This has been stated by me several times here. Right here in the WC forum.

Okay, that's better-see how easy it was? You could even have just done this:

He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe.

:lol:

I'll take another look at the rest of what you had to say-like, I'm a little curious about the age of "hubby," and when he served. I mean, BJJ's been "around" since around 1921, when Helio Gracie observed his brothers training in the judo his family learned, and it's been in the U.S. since the 80's, when Rorion Gracie started teaching there. Additionally, the Marine Corps didn't develop MCMAOP until some time between 1997 and 1999, and didn't officially implement it until 2000. BJJ was certainly around at the time, in any case-even during when the Marines were using the LINE system....

You really pride yourself on being rude,

Not being rude, yet. THough I have to ask, are you taking any medication? Seriously.Haldol?Clozapine? Lithium Carbonate?

The reason I ask is that I did a little search for "Jim Fung" among your posts, and I found this nugget, which I've added some emphasis to:

WT is made to change and evolve. Many schools don't want to do this, they stay with the old and don't try the new. Bruce Lee changed WC, anti-grappling is a new concept for many people who don't want to accept it as Wing Chun concept. This is very unfortunate, for them. I am still relatively new to WC, but my openness has allowed me to be more accepting of new ideas, and techniques, and to reconize it's weaknesses. Thus, I have learned much from my teacher. Who's teacher was both Fung and Emin. He's taken two different styles of WT/WC and combined them.

I've very happy about this, because it just makes better wing chun. Most in the art won't share and combine their skills, their too busy fussing, arguing, declaring who's the best, and critizising to stop and learn something from eachother. Real bummer, dude.

Like kids in a playground, their missing out on something better than ego, who's right, who's better, which style is "pure", etc. Both of my teachers teachers come directly from Yip Man. Fung we're third generation from Yip man, and same on Ling Ting side. Pretty good "lineage". lol!
the whole lineage thing always make me feel like I'm a thurobred horse or something! lol!

Relax peoples! and learn to be open to try new stuff. look at it on video all you want, but don't make up your mind before you try it. You'll miss out.

Earlier in that same thread, you also posted that Emin had studied, in addition to Turkish Wrestling, Brazilian jujitsu.

So, I gotta wonder what your beef is-and apparently, it's one that you have with yourself, even-hence the "rude" medication question....:lfao:

 

[The Last Legionary]

No single art holds all the answers, and it's an arrogant fool who thinks it does.
Wing Chun is a wonderful art, but so are many others, equally good.
Kenpo has a stick section, but it pales compared to the information found in the FMA.
BJJ doesn't have weapon techniques.
Iaido and Aikido compliment each other because each fills in what the other lacks.
and so on.
Wing Chun has components for a ground game, and for weapon game, but both are better developed in other arts. Now, it's possible that SiJi's branch has added and expended to encompass a more robust skill set, but that doesn't make it Wing Chun, not in the pure sense. That makes it MMA. Without the cuddling.

(Puts in ear plugs to block out the coming screech)

 

[MJS]

Off the martial arts topic for a minute. Let me ask the following.

Is someone who goes to med. school wrong for wanting to specialize in something other than just being a gen. pract.? So a guy that wants to focus on sports medicine, one that wants to focus on the heart, one that wants to focus on plastic surgery, one that wants to focus on ears/nose/throat, one that wants to focus on eyes. They all must be wrong and they've tainted their medical future because they went on.

What about a chef? Go to culinary school and you'll learn about this and that. But, if you wanted to focus on pastery or food from a particular culture. Those people must be wrong.

What about a builder. Hmm...he has a guy for the foundation, for electrical, for plumbing. One guy can't do it all, so his houses must be ****, because he needs specialists to help him.

What about a high school teacher? You have some that focus on math, some that focus on Spanish, Franch or Italian, some that focus on computers. Should one teacher be able to do it all? They all must suck because they go off and focus on a certain area.

Sigh...why do I even bother anymore.

 

[The Last Legionary]

There is nothing wrong with specializing.
What is wrong is specializing and insisting you aren't.
I see an excellent chiroprctor, but I don't rely on him as the sole source of healing.

 

[MJS]

Okay, that's better-see how easy it was? You could even have just done this:


:lol:

I'll take another look at the rest of what you had to say-like, I'm a little curious about the age of "hubby," and when he served. I mean, BJJ's been "around" since around 1921, when Helio Gracie observed his brothers training in the judo his family learned, and it's been in the U.S. since the 80's, when Rorion Gracie started teaching there. Additionally, the Marine Corps didn't develop MCMAOP until some time between 1997 and 1999, and didn't officially implement it until 2000. BJJ was certainly around at the time, in any case-even during when the Marines were using the LINE system....



Not being rude, yet. THough I have to ask, are you taking any medication? Seriously.Haldol?Clozapine? Lithium Carbonate?

The reason I ask is that I did a little search for "Jim Fung" among your posts, and I found this nugget, which I've added some emphasis to:




Earlier in that same thread, you also posted that Emin had studied, in addition to Turkish Wrestling, Brazilian jujitsu.

So, I gotta wonder what your beef is-and apparently, it's one that you have with yourself, even-hence the "rude" medication question....:lfao:

*pulling up a chair, grabbing some opcorn: and a cool :drinkbeereagerly awaiting the reply to this gem.* And yes, yes indeed, that was quite the nugget of info. Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but me thinks that theres a bit of contradicting wording from that post, to what she preaches lately.

 

[The Last Legionary]

opcorn::drinkbeer:lfao:

 

[dungeonworks]

MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.

You are correct. MMA isn't real fighting, and is a sport, but it's the closest thing we have to real fighting without the loss of eyes or death. Also, there is full contact with minimal padding, take downs, stand up striking, ground striking, submissions, wrestling...ect. With the removal of a few rules, you do have a fight and therefore the technique is relevant as well as pressure testing various techniques.

IMHO and past experiences in various situations/confrontations, MMA would have been very useful. It is downright funny that some on here will hurry up and post all the hoo-rah about Wing Chun fighting in the cage in one thread only to turn around in another and tout how it isn't meant for the cage and MMA isn't real fighting and that Wing Chun is the total ULTIMATE combat system that other styles "No can defend!" (Mr. Myagi). I agree that Wing Chun is a great and full art, but as with ALL of martial arts, none have the complete answer for everybody.

...then there is BJJ. You totally discount the art and that is fine, we all have opinions. What is laughable though, is this disdain and spite you have for an art that is proven and has been for a hundred years with film footage to boot! I have never ever seen any real Wing Chun footage showing any of the masters figthing....chi sao? Yes, but not actual fighting. Any of the full contact "sparring" (sparring isn't a real fight, and just a sport, right? :uhyeah clips I have seen claiming to be Wing Chun are shot down by other Chunner's in the comment areas. Things like "his structure sucked" or "totally used the bong sau wrong, that ain't Wing Chun!" and "That isn't real Wing Chun, he should have just tan'ed out of that rear-naked-choke!"....not exact quotes, but you can read comments on any given YouTube or Google video you like. Wing Chunner's cannot even agree on what constitutes Wing Chun....UNLESS A CLAIMED CHUNNER WINS, then it is just a big SEE, WING CHUN WORKS IN MMA!!! chorus. When the chunner loses, you hear the comments of it wasn't real wing chun or wing chun isn't made for the ring....take your pick.


The whole start of this thread was born from reading an article about Sam Kwok and Carlson Gracie Jr. and listening to master's of their respective style discuss meshing the stand-up of Wing Chun and BJJ. Seeing that Carlon Gracie Jr. has documented footage of his fights and is very experienced in fighting, I found it nice to see someone of his martial pedigree see something in Wing Chun and vise versa with Sam Kwok. That is all. Nothing more.

Then, as similarly happens on EVERY Wing Chun forum in cyberspace, the two fearless leaders of the Wing Chun blinder wearing bandwagon came out, derailed thread...and the rest is history.

 

[dungeonworks]

I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like.

That's funny, I thought you mentioned Kamon owed you a pint if you were ever in London....5-6 pages later you won't drink with him??? LOL

 

[elder999]

That's funny, I thought you mentioned Kamon owed you a pint if you were ever in London....5-6 pages later you won't drink with him??? LOL

Shhhh! I'm right-she's obviously off her meds....:lfao:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Lets lose the personal shots folks.

 

[elder999]

Lets lose the personal shots folks.

You're right. I apologize,

Si-Je, I'm sorry about the whole "medication" thing.

I also apologize to anyone else who takes anti-psychotics, or other medication-that was insensitive of me....:asian:

 

[Steve]

Cognitive Dissonance: In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas.

 

[Si-Je]

Yes Elder I find you very rude, and condesending. And unable to take or even understand a joke.
And no, I don't see BJJ as a very capable self-defense style. It works great in the ring, especially MMA rules which allow it to excell.
I know many people like to train it, and many that do are good folks. But I meet many, usually online, that are very arrogant and close minded about ground fighting. They and YOU seem to feel that it is the unbeatable ground fighting style.
I have found that to be untrue. I've had different experiences with BJJ because I don't fight a BJJ stylist with BJJ.

If Sifu Emin studied other grappling arts does that totally negate the anti-grappling he derived from that knowledge? There is a big difference between learning a grappling style and adding it to your WC curriculum and studing it to discover how it can be beaten using WC techniques and principles.
Sifu Emin studied most of those other arts before he even trained WT. He trained TKD (or some variant) boxing, turkish wrestling too. But, later he started training WT. Someone like him who has been in MA for most of his life is bound to have trained other arts. Does this fact make his WT less "pure" or less of a traditional art? I don't think so.

As for Hubbie. He's 43. He was in the USMC around 1997-2000. I think he got out in 2004-05ish. And yes, he was a MCMAP trainer and helped incoroporate what they teach today. BJJ wasn't noted until the mid to late nintys when UFC exposed it world wide, and in the states. They may have taught before then elsewhere, but most had never even heard of it. So, it's an art that's about what, 70 years old?
Pretty new art as arts go. And it's claim to fame came in the mid to late 90's?

I do think it's pretty hilarious that the same fellas on here go constantly back and forth missing what I've been saying pretty consistantly, and still trying to change my opinion on using the art of BJJ with my WC/WT skill set. I guess I can understand why a beginning student to WC/WT would find it attractive because their not to the level yet to understand and apply the anti-grappling, and because only one school teaches it. (now two, lol!)
So it's not as readily available to every wing chunner.
But, that doen't make it uneffective, it just makes it misunderstood. Just because there's a BJJ school everywhere you turn it's just easier to train from that school. And I do think it odd that people come to a WC thread and plug BJJ. That's pretty rude if you think about it. I guess I should go to the BJJ threads and plug WC and treat people rudely that disagree with me. lol!
You go to a WC thread and try to force BJJ down people's throats saying their WC is useless without it, you're going to get resistance. (I'm disapointed how little resistance. But, it seems most WC students are already under the assumption that they will be beaten by a BJJ stylist. Their defeated before they even get into the fight/ring. Very unfortunate.)

Plus, the way I see it: It takes 10 years to learn the full system of Wing Chun. And it takes 10 years to learn the full system of BJJ. So, your looking at taking 20 years of martial arts training to achieve the same end if you just studied WC for the 10 years.
It just seems like extra work to me. Like I've said, take it if you want, it's a great sport. But, my interest lies in learning realistic street self-defense, so my goals in training are geared towards that end.

If you see MMA as the closest thing we've got to realistic combat, that may be true. But, realize that arts that are COMPLETELY focused on realistic combat cannot use a vast majority of their technique under MMA rules. So, in essence, it's as far from realistic combat as sparring in the dojo/Kwoon/Gym.
This perception misleads many into believing an art that does well in the ring under strict rules is a viable art in the street. I find that this could be very dangerous to someone who may find out otherwise at a point in time where their very life is on the line. Not a good time to come to realize that what you've been training hasn't prepared you to survive. Especially when fighting more than one attacker.

Many seem to believe that the way to counter WC/WT or any powerful striking art is to get the fighter in the clinch and/or take them to the ground. Why is this? It works sometimes. It's worked for Gracie in the early years of UFC when no one had EVER seen this style of fighting, and of course wasn't prepared to defend against it.
I do recall Gracie being beaten by a midwestern wrestler. And what won the fight was the fact he struck him on the ground until they stopped the fight.
So, what does this teach us? That striking counters out BJJ on the ground?
So, thus, can you not utilize anti-grappling and WC/WT striking while on the ground against a BJJ stylist? Sounds very probable to me. Plus, I've seen it in person. I've done it myself. Yes, in class. But, when you have a BJJ stylist "visiting" to test out your WC in class, trying to disprove everything your teaching in front of your students, I wouldn't call that guy a "compliant opponent". And they weren't. And they were countered every move with anti-grappling. And they never came back again.
So what does that tell us? Some BJJ or MMA guys still like coming to WC schools and trying to "embarress" the Sifu? They sure do. That they feel embarressed when they cannot make the "silly sifu" look bad in front of his own students? Sure seems like it from the point of view of someone who's owned a school and experienced this several times.

As always, our class is open to anyone who wants to train, learn, test out the style, challenge, or spar the Sifu. He loves it. He's looking for guys closer to his size and weight. So, anyone 6ft. and more (preferrably more) and 225lbs or more (again, prefferably more. lol!) please feel free to stop by and test out the anti-grappling on Sifu. He's training for MMA cage fighting and would love the practice.
Note: we do alot of this without the matts, so folks that wish to truely challenge the anti-grappling, that will be done on the hard floor as Sifu trains. If you can't handle doing BJJ on the concrete then reconcider what style you use on the concrete. Beginners in anti-grappling use the matts at our school.

As for the MCMAP, we have a student in class right now that is in the Marine Corps, and training MCMAP. He doesn't know a lick of BJJ, has never been shown BJJ. So, wherever their training it to whoever in the USMC I've yet to meet a marine that traines, knows, or even likes BJJ. The Army on the other hand traines alot of BJJ.

Anyways, very amusing to chat with BJJ and grappling stylists that are so very knowledgable in the art of Wing Chun, come to a WC thread and declare that WC technique is worthless against a "good grappler". Based on little to no knowledge of WC/WT technique, principle, or concepts.

Quiz time grapplers:
What are the 5 principles of Wing Chun?
Go ahead and google it, post it like you know it, and then explain what each mean and how you would apply it using WC technique. You do that, that would be a start where I might actually "listen" to what you have to say when trying to state that BJJ training complement's WC principles and concepts.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I love this thread.

 

[elder999]

Yes Elder I find you very rude, and condesending. And unable to take or even understand a joke.

Pot? Kettle? :lfao:

I'm not even going to get into all your erroneous info on jujutsu, locks, "two-handedness," etc., etc., etc. I'm just going to point out that by your own admission, you've only had 3 years of JJJ training....I don't want to seem condescending or anything, but that's-as jarrod pointed out-really just enough to be competent in this day and age.

As for Hubbie. He's 43. He was in the USMC around 1997-2000. I think he got out in 2004-05ish. And yes, he was a MCMAP trainer and helped incoroporate what they teach today. BJJ wasn't noted until the mid to late nintys when UFC exposed it world wide, and in the states. They may have taught before then elsewhere, but most had never even heard of it. So, it's an art that's about what, 70 years old?

Actually, that makes it older than Krav Maga, and who's counting?

I don't doubt that he's all that he says he is. I do doubt that he's all that you say he is, since it sounds more and more like you're not quite sure what you're talking about.

As for the MCMAP, we have a student in class right now that is in the Marine Corps, and training MCMAP. He doesn't know a lick of BJJ, has never been shown BJJ. So, wherever their training it to whoever in the USMC I've yet to meet a marine that traines, knows, or even likes BJJ. The Army on the other hand traines alot of BJJ.

Yeah, this looks a lot more like WC

The Instructor's Course also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao:

THis one looks pretty deadly, even with that soundtrack!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrHBrW1Iu0&feature=related

I can post lots, and lots, and lots more MCMAP groundfighting that has all the elements of what you've described here as "inefficient," or undesirable-including going into a BJJ guard, "two handed" joint locks, and use of body leverage/torque-of course, that's not all the videos show in some cases, because that's not all MCMAP is-but it is a part of what it is. Heck, I've even found video of two guys grappling from the knees, ala BJJ....

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

What are the 5 principles of Wing Chun?

Is it this:

1. Go forward (問路尋橋手先&#34892 Advance immediately in order to establish contact with the limbs (allowing for Chi Sao reflexes to take over) or — even better — to strike first. This counter intuitive reaction will often surprise the attacker, and moves the fight into a close distance in which tactile reflexes will dominate over visual reactions, where the Wing Tsun practitioner is likely to have an advantage.
2. Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無訂(地&#26041&#36208 If you are unable to strike and disable your opponent, but instead make contact with some part of his body (other than his face, throat, etc.), stick to it. Often this will be an opponent's arm; if you maintain constant contact with his arms, how can he launch an attack at you without your knowing? This applies for the time only when the opponent is blocking your shortest way of attack. Once there is opportunity, you give up sticking, and go in with your attack (flow).
3. Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力） Since one cannot expect to be stronger than every potential attacker, one must train in such a way as to be able to win even against a stronger opponent. Chi Sao teaches the reflexes necessary to react to an opponent's attacks. When an attack is simply stronger than yours, your trained reflexes will tell your body to move out of the way of the attack and find another angle for attack.
4. Follow through (迫步追&#24418 As an extension of the first principle, if an opponent retreats, a WingTsun practitioner's immediate response is to continue moving forward, not allowing the opponent to recover and have an opportunity to reconsider his strategy of attack. Many styles that rely on visual cues prefer to step back and wait and time their attacks, as commonly seen in sport and tournament fighting.

1. I find the same concepts in Judo and Jujutsu which also must be in BJJ since BJJ comes from Judo which comes from Jujutsu. I find these same concepts in every martial art at its highest level.

I find ground fighting can work in a street fight IF you know how to apply it. From the fights I have been in and the fights I have seen these things take place 1.Someone usually bridges the gap and clinches in some way 2. Someone to avoid strikes usually goes for some sort of takedown 3. Usually the person is over the person on the ground and ground and pounding him.

Just a point of the deadly eye gouge and throat strike a grappler can apply this to so using it as a comp out as "teh deadly" does not really apply. If you feel your art is sufficient enough then thats you and not everyone is going to agree with you same as you will not agree with others to each their own.

Quick question Si Jie what Jujutsu school or Ryuha did you train in?