Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[MJS]

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

Could have fooled me. Interestingly enough, there're people on here, who I'd bet have more time than that, yet you're still arguing with them.

 

[MJS]

I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.

Yup, more posts that solidify what I was trying to say. I can relate to what you said above though....so many times I'd find myself on the bottom, struggling, and the top guy, all relaxed, felt like 1,000 lbs. LOL!

 

[Si-Je]

Just posting and talking about WC groundfighting technique. Giving personal experiences to folks who are interested. Gave examples of what I felt from other BJJ guys, wrestlers (whom I have a harder time with)

But a particular group of folks keep assuming that I've never ever trained or worked with stylists of other arts, especially grapplers and MMA guys, boxers, etc. Or that I've got any knowledge in any other art than WC/WT.
Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!
But, I've got different views than some if not many. That works out okay for me. This is a great way to learn about the collective opinion and consciousness of martial artists from all over the world. And exposure to them in a way I'd never get. And that's great for when I'm talking to prospective students. I already know more of what they think about fighting, what they think works, why, and what questions they will ask.
For all of these things are repeated in this forum, and I get to learn exactly what folks really think in a way people don't often say in person.
This way I can be a better teacher, and answer student's questions more thouroghly. Usually, before they ask the question. Pre-emptively covering what they would ask before they ask it.
Groovy stuff.

 

[Steve]

Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.

We just call this defense. Counters start at "In time" counters where you see it coming and make choices. We also work on counters that are late, where you've managed to get into trouble. There are also last ditch counters, where you've managed to allow yourself to get all the way locked out and have basically one chance to escape. Kind of a good, better, best situation... always best to defend well and avoid having to counter at all.

But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!

This sounds very interesting and something I'd really be interested in seeing.

The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. If you're totally flexed, you're about a 1/2 inch or so from losing your elbow. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.

I am reminded of the many times in sparring with people who are much less experienced, and releasing multiple submissions because they have no idea how much danger they were really in. They just don't know what they don't know. If I have your arm fully locked out, heels in, knees together, with a handshake grip on your hand to keep you from turning your arm other than thumb up, you can roll all you like. I would roll with you. Hopefully, you wouldn't roll to your stomach because face down armbars allow for much more leverage against the joint as I no longer have the ground blocking me from arching backward.

It's not uncommon to "fit" an armbar in guard, roll through to my stomach, then over to my back to finish.

Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts.

So... now you crosstrain in BJJ, too? Where the heck did these purple belts come from??? And why don't they know how to control a person's legs at the knees and execute a basic standing guard pass without using their "body weight"?

If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back

And they straight ankle lock you (which is BJJ, but also Sambo, Judo and Catch Wrestling),

or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip.

And they kneeslide/kneeride to side control after driving that low leg to the ground.

Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great,

Good lord. Only if they've just had a stroke.

and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).

Oh no. Okay. Please. Please, I'm begging you. Avoid articulating in too much detail the BJJ techniques because it doesn't help. I can see any of these things working on someone with very, very little to no training. I don't see these things working on anyone who has trained for more than 3 or 4 months, unless you overpower them with strength or size.

 

[Hagakure]

I'm confused, at what point did this entire thread become about WC V grappling? I thought it was about the combination of an effective striking art "with" a more grappling orientated one, thus the discussion of combining the best of both worlds? :deadhorse

 

[elder999]

I'm confused, at what point did this entire thread become about WC V grappling? I thought it was about the combination of an effective striking art "with" a more grappling orientated one, thus the discussion of combining the best of both worlds? :deadhorse

Around about post #8. Shortly after that, a few of us had an amplitude crowbar...:lfao:

....I'm all outta popcorn, though.....:lfao:

 

[dungeonworks]

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).

:BSmeter: is approaching meltdown! :uhyeah:

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Nothing to do with the topic but here's an interesting video I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk&feature=related.

 

[Hagakure]

Around about post #8. Shortly after that, a few of us had an amplitude crowbar...:lfao:

....I'm all outta popcorn, though.....:lfao:

THAT soon eh? Oh dear oh dear... Me too. We should have a whip round to get more pop corn.

 

[MJS]

THAT soon eh? Oh dear oh dear... Me too. We should have a whip round to get more pop corn.

Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.

 

[MJS]

Just posting and talking about WC groundfighting technique. Giving personal experiences to folks who are interested. Gave examples of what I felt from other BJJ guys, wrestlers (whom I have a harder time with)

But a particular group of folks keep assuming that I've never ever trained or worked with stylists of other arts, especially grapplers and MMA guys, boxers, etc. Or that I've got any knowledge in any other art than WC/WT.
Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!
But, I've got different views than some if not many. That works out okay for me. This is a great way to learn about the collective opinion and consciousness of martial artists from all over the world. And exposure to them in a way I'd never get. And that's great for when I'm talking to prospective students. I already know more of what they think about fighting, what they think works, why, and what questions they will ask.
For all of these things are repeated in this forum, and I get to learn exactly what folks really think in a way people don't often say in person.
This way I can be a better teacher, and answer student's questions more thouroghly. Usually, before they ask the question. Pre-emptively covering what they would ask before they ask it.
Groovy stuff.

See heres the difference. I could take a 3 day seminar with Royce Gracie or any other BJJ black belt, and walk away with a number of things to work on. However, I would not assume that I knew everything there was to know about BJJ. I would not say that A, B, C didn't work, just from that 3 day event. My point is this....the longer you work with someone, the better understanding you will have. How long, honestly, have you really studied the art of BJJ? Working with someone once a week, for an hour vs. someone who attends BJJ class 2-3 or more times a week...well, there will be obvious differences in knowledge and understanding as well as application.

 

[MJS]

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).

Ummm.....I'm really speechless.

 

[Hagakure]

Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.

I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.

You're not crazy. And I agree. People acctualy told me that I'll have a horrible time adjusting when I swithed from WT to WC(they are suprisingly quite diffrent) and that it will be even harder for me than for a total beginer. But honestly I think I was in advantage in comparison to people who haven't trained anything before. I think if you look at it the right way, training in any martial art can only help you. By right way I mean, look at what each martial art has to offer you and how it would better you as a martial artis. You don't need to be that style. I think thats the main problem; that people want to embody a certein style and they don't look at it as something that it realy is-a tool. In the end you'll be the one fighting-with the tool and not as the tool. No matter how good one style is, we as human beings are uncapable of creating perfection or ideals so it would be unwise to confine youself to a style no matter how good you feel it is. I'm sure if people would be openminded they would find that most styles have something very useful to offer. People here who say that the only relevant thing when deciding to train other styles is the individuals will and free time to spare are absolutely right. But I feel that limiting youself to a style becouse you feel it's the ultimate and that nothing else has anything to offer is unwise in my opinion.

 

[Hagakure]

You're not crazy. And I agree. People acctualy told me that I'll have a horrible time adjusting when I swithed from WT to WC(they are suprisingly quite diffrent) and that it will be even harder for me than for a total beginer. But honestly I think I was in advantage in comparison to people who haven't trained anything before. I think if you look at it the right way, training in any martial art can only help you. By right way I mean, look at what each martial art has to offer you and how it would better you as a martial artis. You don't need to be that style. I think thats the main problem; that people want to embody a certein style and they don't look at it as something that it realy is-a tool. In the end you'll be the one fighting-with the tool and not as the tool. No matter how good one style is, we as human beings are uncapable of creating perfection or ideals so it would be unwise to confine youself to a style no matter how good you feel it is. I'm sure if people would be openminded they would find that most styles have something very useful to offer. People here who say that the only relevant thing when deciding to train other styles is the individuals will and free time to spare are absolutely right. But I feel that limiting youself to a style becouse you feel it's the ultimate and that nothing else has anything to offer is unwise in my opinion.

Totally agree mate. I think in some small way, it boils down to people wanting their art to be the one ultimate. The prospect that it may contain a weakness that is overcome by other arts is anaethama to them. My belief is that it's better to learn from a variety of sources and to limit ones weaknesses. Having spoken to my old sifu, with him having studied Wing Chun and BJJ conbined for a total of 30 odd years of training, I listen to his suggestions/opinions, if in his view there is nothing wrong, it doesn't seem to bother him.

 

[elder999]

I've followed this thread with some interest.....I'm a very longtime karate student: kyokushin, tae kwon do, American kenpo, a very longtime jujutsu and judo student. A relatively short time kali student, an intermediate aikido student, and a longtime though sporadic wing chun student-these days, most of my training concentrates on the last three, though. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut because this was such an interesting train wreck to observe, and I chimed in on one of the other "wing-chun/grappling" threads elsewhere once. The argument is mostly meaningless......

Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!.

Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 8, formally since I was 11, which means two years short of twice as long as you.Most of the time ,I feel like I like, don't know ****. :lol:

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZYQwNLAnAI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FefVTpqVVI4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-30uo3vQUM&feature=rec-HM-r2

 

[jarrod]

I've followed this thread with some interest.....I'm a very longtime karate student: kyokushin, tae kwon do, American kenpo, a very longtime jujutsu and judo student. A relatively short time kali student, an intermediate aikido student, and a longtime though sporadic wing chun student-these days, most of my training concentrates on the last three, though. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut because this was such an interesting train wreck to observe, and I chimed in on one of the other "wing-chun/grappling" threads elsewhere once. The argument is mostly meaningless......



Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 8, formally since I was 11, which means two years short of twice as long as you.Most of the time ,I feel like I like, don't know ****. :lol:

rather than address your point, she's going to come here & critique your math :lol:

jf

 

[elder999]

rather than address your point, she's going to come here & critique your math :lol:

jf

Oh, somehow I wound up thinking she'd said since she was 11(maybe because I've formally trained since I was 11)?? :lol:

Whatever.....:lfao: At least I know I don't know ****...:lfao:

 

[MJS]

I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.

Yes, you probably will get flamed by some on here, due to the fact, that supposedly, you don't need anything, except the WC anti grappling.

No worries though, as you won't get flamed by me. Keep on doing what you're doing. IMHO, you're bettering yourself and making yourself a more well rounded fighter.