Wing Chun Boxing

[karatejj]

Not really, TWC can be similar in some respects. Thing is if you know YMWC you can see where things are the same and where they divert in terms of fighting. The similarities, at least imo, out weigh the differences once the fists fly.

Im having trouble to see the similar bits, compared to wing chun I do. Stuff I do makes sense compared to what other people say and do, example KPM vids. Does not make sense with LFJ videos. Is like different martial art!!

 

[Juany118]

Im having trouble to see the similar bits, compared to wing chun I do. Stuff I do makes sense compared to what other people say and do, example KPM vids. Does not make sense with LFJ videos. Is like different martial art!!

Some teach that there is a difference between your drills, in light sparring etc. There things look VERY similar. The purpose of this is to teach the principles so the "feel" of them becomes second nature. By that I mean you know when you have proper structure based on where you feel your center, how this is then used for power generation as well as defense etc.

Then when you add full spar/free fighting it's about moving naturally while adhereing to the principles. It's also in full spar that you first actually see what BJ means, namely that you can break the rules when you are in a position where you have to recover lost structure. As one of my Sifus says, when he is in a picture perfect man say/wu sau, "no one fights like this in real life." Maybe one or both hands will be fists? Maybe you will stand in a left or right "front stance". You can't become rigidly locked into any particular posture, you have to flow as the fight dictates, while still adhereing to the principles.

 

[KPM]

Why do you think LFJ's wing chun is different. Looking at it seems different, but why? I have asked him but got no answer?

Are you talking about that video of Sean's guys training MMA, that LFJ pointed to as "pure WSVLT"? If so, then I can see your confusion! That is NOT what "pure WSLVT" looks like, despite what LFJ may say! Sean's guys were doing MMA. Just do a youtube search for "Phillip Bayer Ving Tsun" and you will find a plethora of Chi Sau videos. That is more representative of what "pure" WSLVT looks like! At least the version that LFJ endorses. You can also do a youtube search for "David Petersen Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid representation that LFJ does not endorse. Or "Gary Lamb Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid version that LFJ does not endorse. What LFJ does personally we will never know, because he would never put himself out there by sharing a video of his "VT".

 

[Juany118]

Are you talking about that video of Sean's guys training MMA, that LFJ pointed to as "pure WSVLT"? If so, then I can see your confusion! That is NOT what "pure WSLVT" looks like, despite what LFJ may say! Sean's guys were doing MMA. Just do a youtube search for "Phillip Bayer Ving Tsun" and you will find a plethora of Chi Sau videos. That is more representative of what "pure" WSLVT looks like! At least the version that LFJ endorses. You can also do a youtube search for "David Petersen Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid representation that LFJ does not endorse. Or "Gary Lamb Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid version that LFJ does not endorse. What LFJ does personally we will never know, because he would never put himself out there by sharing a video of his "VT".

I have to concur on the last bit. As an example many moons ago I studied GL VT. In many ways, using standing grappling, especially to trap for strikes, it is similar to TWC. However in interviews PB has explicitly said there is no grappling whatsoever in his VT. Where are the differences born just in WSLVT alone? I don't know, but I still believe the core of YMWC is shared across most every lineage I have seen or experienced.

 

[drop bear]

The other aspect is we all want the secret method. That trick that gives us an advantage over the rest of the herd.

It is kind of why we do martial arts in the first place.

And this is why the whole method or the secret linage has so much appeal.

Personally I don't really think it exists. Or if it does it only exists in tiny percentages.

 

[KPM]

The other aspect is we all want the secret method. That trick that gives us an advantage over the rest of the herd.

It is kind of why we do martial arts in the first place.

And this is why the whole method or the secret linage has so much appeal.

Personally I don't really think it exists. Or if it does it only exists in tiny percentages.

Yep! William Cheung said that he was the only one taught the "traditional" version of Wing Chun that Ip Man learned from Leung Bik. Leung Ting said that he was the only one taught the "final" version of Ip Man's refined Wing Tsun. LFJ has been claiming that Wong Shun Leung is the only one that was taught the "complete" or "unbroken" version of Ip Man's Ving Tsun. And follows that up by saying only a few learned the "real" version of WSLVT from Wong Shun Leung! In modern circles the sales pitch for almost everything has been "new and improved!" But in TCMA circles the sales pitch has always been "traditional and original!"

 

[karatejj]

Are you talking about that video of Sean's guys training MMA, that LFJ pointed to as "pure WSVLT"? If so, then I can see your confusion! That is NOT what "pure WSLVT" looks like, despite what LFJ may say! Sean's guys were doing MMA. Just do a youtube search for "Phillip Bayer Ving Tsun" and you will find a plethora of Chi Sau videos. That is more representative of what "pure" WSLVT looks like! At least the version that LFJ endorses. You can also do a youtube search for "David Petersen Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid representation that LFJ does not endorse. Or "Gary Lamb Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid version that LFJ does not endorse. What LFJ does personally we will never know, because he would never put himself out there by sharing a video of his "VT".

Hey dude, much as I like you're clips, you are being biased here.

LFJ has said repeatedly that the WHOLE VIDEO contains some grappling mixed in with striking for MMA

BUT that the section he is highlighting is PURE WING CHUN type he study. He says it in black and white many many times. If you ignore this fact then makes you look bad man, sorry too say! Please don't play silly games on the forum, cause I like you're clips man!

 

[JbrmWC]

My understanding is Ip Man's wing chun changed over the years as his age progressed. The older he got the softer it became because he did not have the same strength. Hence the changes and differences in the way his students learned through the years. IMO, since WC is conceptual it should be a bit different for everyone but the core concepts would remain. For instance,one of my friends I spar with is a lot smaller than I. I can use a gum sao against his uppercut without stance turning. But if he doesn't turn against mine it will break right through it.

 

[DanT]

My understanding is Ip Man's wing chun changed over the years as his age progressed. The older he got the softer it became because he did not have the same strength. Hence the changes and differences in the way his students learned through the years. IMO, since WC is conceptual it should be a bit different for everyone but the core concepts would remain. For instance,one of my friends I spar with is a lot smaller than I. I can use a gum sao against his uppercut without stance turning. But if he doesn't turn against mine it will break right through it.

You are right. My Sifu had the fortune to study under 3 different students of Yip Man. (Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shon Tin, Moy Yat). He notes that each had slightly different flavours, but for the most part, taught the same. I think too many people get caught up in the differences, and forget that the differences are largely caused by personal preferences rather than secrets. I also feel like too many people get caught up in the "concepts" of the art, and forget that the techniques are of equal importance as well. Hence my favourite quote "Stop reciting theory and hit your target." That's not to say theory isn't important, it is, but so are techniques, and mastery over them.

As a side note, try using Gan Da vs an uppercut instead of Gum Sao if the person is very strong. IE: person punches with a left upper cut, you intercept with left Gan on the inside of their forearm, and turn them so you have access to their outside gate.

 

[Juany118]

My understanding is Ip Man's wing chun changed over the years as his age progressed. The older he got the softer it became because he did not have the same strength. Hence the changes and differences in the way his students learned through the years. IMO, since WC is conceptual it should be a bit different for everyone but the core concepts would remain. For instance,one of my friends I spar with is a lot smaller than I. I can use a gum sao against his uppercut without stance turning. But if he doesn't turn against mine it will break right through it.

It's not only that. There is a video I linked a while ago that relates an interesting story that was alleged to have been told by Wong Shun Leung.

Story Part 1: Before he fled to Hong Kong YM was actually a police officer for the Nationalist Government. When the Communists won he fled to Hong Kong. He had never intended to teach Wing Chun but once in Hong Kong it was suggested by friends that this is what he could do to earn a living.

Now for the next part of the story we have to remember it had been many years since he was being formally taught by a teacher. Over time, even if you practice regularly, you will make a martial art "your own". You will emphasize your own personal strengths and minimize the weaknesses. If you have a practical reason to study Martial arts you will also emphasize the parts that best suit the practical purpose.

Story Part 2: Now YM decides to teach Wing Chun. However as he never intended to teach, and it had been many years since he learned formally under a teacher himself, he needs a curriculum from which to teach. The story goes on as to how students would watch YM work the Mook Jong and how he had to do 2 things. First remember the form itself. There would be times they would see him stop, shake his head, and start again. Second it was an adapted dummy form. The Mooks on the mainland were basically "free standing". It is rather difficult however to have free standing mooks in the cramped apartment conditions that the majority of people in Hong Kong live under though so the wall mounted Mook comes of age, the adpations to which result in more uniqueness.

So you have an art that is born of remembering, filling in gaps in memory, and adapting to the very different environment of Hong Kong life itself vs that on the main land.

 

[JbrmWC]

You are right. My Sifu had the fortune to study under 3 different students of Yip Man. (Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shon Tin, Moy Yat). He notes that each had slightly different flavours, but for the most part, taught the same. I think too many people get caught up in the differences, and forget that the differences are largely caused by personal preferences rather than secrets. I also feel like too many people get caught up in the "concepts" of the art, and forget that the techniques are of equal importance as well. Hence my favourite quote "Stop reciting theory and hit your target." That's not to say theory isn't important, it is, but so are techniques, and mastery over them.

As a side note, try using Gan Da vs an uppercut instead of Gum Sao if the person is very strong. IE: person punches with a left upper cut, you intercept with left Gan on the inside of their forearm, and turn them so you have access to their outside gate.

Totally agree,that's how he prefers to deal with it also. The gum is just an example that he and I noticed when testing theories. Body size has a lot to do with the way WC works/looks. Since I'm several inches taller and 70 lbs heavier our WC looks totally different even though we're doing the same things.

 

[JbrmWC]

It's not only that. There is a video I linked a while ago that relates an interesting story that was alleged to have been told by Wong Shun Leung.

Story Part 1: Before he fled to Hong Kong YM was actually a police officer for the Nationalist Government. When the Communists won he fled to Hong Kong. He had never intended to teach Wing Chun but once in Hong Kong it was suggested by friends that this is what he could do to earn a living.

Now for the next part of the story we have to remember it had been many years since he was being formally taught by a teacher. Over time, even if you practice regularly, you will make a martial art "your own". You will emphasize your own personal strengths and minimize the weaknesses. If you have a practical reason to study Martial arts you will also emphasize the parts that best suit the practical purpose.

Story Part 2: Now YM decides to teach Wing Chun. However as he never intended to teach, and it had been many years since he learned formally under a teacher himself, he needs a curriculum from which to teach. The story goes on as to how students would watch YM work the Mook Jong and how he had to do 2 things. First remember the form itself. There would be times they would see him stop, shake his head, and start again. Second it was an adapted dummy form. The Mooks on the mainland were basically "free standing". It is rather difficult however to have free standing mooks in the cramped apartment conditions that the majority of people in Hong Kong live under though so the wall mounted Mook comes of age, the adpations to which result in more uniqueness.

So you have an art that is born of remembering, filling in gaps in memory, and adapting to the very different environment of Hong Kong life itself vs that on the main land.

Agreed,it's almost it's own while being the same.

 

[DanT]

Totally agree,that's how he prefers to deal with it also. The gum is just an example that he and I noticed when testing theories. Body size has a lot to do with the way WC works/looks. Since I'm several inches taller and 70 lbs heavier our WC looks totally different even though we're doing the same things.

Yes if you are bigger and stronger the Gum Sao will work fine.

 

[Callen]

Im having trouble to see the similar bits, compared to wing chun I do. Stuff I do makes sense compared to what other people say and do, example KPM vids. Does not make sense with LFJ videos. Is like different martial art!!

There are different approaches to Wing Chun, as I’m sure you are aware of. Lineage interpretations and individual preference play a large part. In terms of identifying the system, one approach or lineage is not necessarily more “real” or valid than any other.

Wing Chun should be “alive” and adaptive in nature. The more you become familiar with the system, the more you will see the similarities between these approaches and lineages.

Just do a youtube search for "Phillip Bayer Ving Tsun" and you will find a plethora of Chi Sau videos. That is more representative of what "pure" WSLVT looks like!

Actually, the YouTube search should be for “Wong Shun Leung”. The only way to find "pure" WSLVT is from the man himself.

 

[drop bear]

It is clear you have studied boxing, you're examples are awesome and an inspiration!!

Why do you think LFJ's wing chun is different. Looking at it seems different, but why? I have asked him but got no answer?

OK. I think there are some points missing here.

As with every martial art. Someone just invented it. So a person just decided that in all the moves that could be used for fighting some of them were wing chun and some of them weren't.

Now he trained some guys who trained some guys. And they evolved and adapted and along the way they decided what was wing chun and what wasn't.

But there is no actual rule that decides what is wing chun except for what exists in the minds of the practitioners.

So duck and weave is wing chun but overhand punches are not.

So basically as these practitioners separate and create their own wing chun they will all start to look a bit different because they all have their own idea of what wing chun is.

 

[karatejj]

there is no actual rule that decides what is wing chun

Umm dude, yes there is

 

[wckf92]

Umm dude, yes there is

What is it?

 

[karatejj]

Wing chun has sayings that cover ideas its based on. Its a system design to work togeher. You cant just throw any things in there cos you can make other bits not work

 

[drop bear]

Umm dude, yes there is

 

[KPM]

Hey dude, much as I like you're clips, you are being biased here.

LFJ has said repeatedly that the WHOLE VIDEO contains some grappling mixed in with striking for MMA

BUT that the section he is highlighting is PURE WING CHUN type he study. He says it in black and white many many times. If you ignore this fact then makes you look bad man, sorry too say! Please don't play silly games on the forum, cause I like you're clips man!

Ok. Don't take my word for it. Check it out yourself as I suggested. Because you aren't going to get a good answer from LFJ. And even Sean didn't claim that portion was "pure WSLVT", and those are his students!