Wing Chun Boxing

[Juany118]

might I suggest, instead of boxing FMA?

I have considered that. I have trained a lot of FMA myself. And I will certainly draw inspiration for Wing Chun Boxing drills from the Panantukan drills I have learned. But there are things in Panantukan, just like there are things in TWC, that just don't see as being very high yield in a real fight situation. A lot of the gunting limb destruction work just doesn't seem very practical under stress. I have Guru Ron Balicki's series on Filipino Boxing. He includes a lot of footage of himself competing or free-sparring with a student to illustrate how what he is teaching can be applied. But what struck me was how difficult it was for him to actually pull some of it off. It just didn't seem "high yield." And given that Panantukan started with western boxing.....it seems more straight-forward to just go with western boxing.

Many many years ago I went to a few seminars with Guru Ted Lucaylucay. At that time he was promoting what he called "stickboxing." He and his father Lucky Lucaylucay were the big promotors of Panantukan in the Inosanto Academy back in the day. "Stick boxing" was basically using western boxing mechanics to throw the equivalent of jabs, crosses, hooks, etc. with a stick. The empty hand can be used to either check or land a strike of its own in a combination straight out of western boxing. Or it can hold the knife and be used the same way....sort of a boxing version of Espada y daga. Of course, a short knife in hand (especially in reverse grip) can be used with boxing mechanics quite well! James Keating and later Mike Janich promote a reverse grip knife fighting method called "Drawpoint." One of the key drills is called "Rotary Picking", and it is essentially the Pak Da drill from Wing Chun with a knife held in reverse grip in one hand. So from my perspective, as far as weapons go, I see clearly how they can be used with a western boxing mechanic without claiming to hybridize with FMA. And I'm sure you already know that the twirling motions from the TWC knife form are just an upward figure 8. They can be done just as easily with a downward figure 8 and match with a sinawali pattern. Going from blocking structures with the Wing Chun knives into cutting patterns that match sinawali is quite easy and instinctive.

So I think it is a little "cleaner" and more "direct" to work on basic Western Boxing merging with Wing Chun, and then draw inspiration for the weapons from FMA rather than try and merge with a specific FMA style. From what I've seen, FMA weapons systems generally do not use a western boxing mechanic as Panantukan does.

Just one thing Inosanto Kali, as it is today, and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (what the Filipino Recon Marines) have empty hand, related to Panantukan, but my understanding of the Inosanto blend and what I have been told of PTK has a difference regarding gunting. Basically I am taught gunting works as follows...
1. With sticks, swords... Effective.
2. With knives, flashlights, less effective but still can "destroy."
3. Open hand, this is basically an attack that doubles as a block/deflection. It may cause temporary disruption if you strike nerves and tendons properly but it's only temporary, don't bank on it.

The other reason I said study one of these blends (PTK is also a recent creation) is because open hand has longer striking, you can basically ignore the gunting if you want as gunting should only be used if the opportunity permits any who, and the longer striking is "baked in" with the weapons work out of the gate. This imo provides an advantage.

1. You get the longer striking.
2. Because you have the weapons out of the gate you have "maintain proper timing and distance" pounded into your head with a dang sledgehammer, even more than WB I'm because... Well rattan hurts more .
3. Another thing that @Nobody Important noted. TWC has basic to intermediate grappling but not all WC flavors do. Kali also has a good amount of grappling. So you not only get the long game. If you "trip" and get pulled in "deeper" you have tools to cope with that as well.

 

[Juany118]

That is a huge negative! As in NOT what BJD teaches!
He must be talking about doing drills on the pole and not actual knife fighting.



Rushing into close range when your opponent is armed with knives is a good way to get dead.
At least he admits that strategy is suicide and his students should be willing to die if they try it.

I know you have not learned BJD yet, so, be careful with whatever you find on Google.
Only a couple people even learned BJD from YM! There are a lot of suicide manuals out there.

Actually, BJD strategy follows the same principle that is termed in Kali "defang the snake".

An attacker that has been mortally wounded by a knife or even gun shots can remain on their feet and in the fight longer than Hollywood makes you think. Certainly long enough to kill you back!

Therefore, BJD strategy is to remain mobile and evasive on the outside and take out the weapon arm before safely closing to finish from a relatively safe position and GTFO ASAP.

BJD is not about charging in on an armed opponent like a lunatic, nor does it teach charging in on an opponent from long range in hand-to-hand. Both are idiotic strategies that don't work and could potential kill you.

I am not speaking to how you learn it. As you said you speak of your teaching. I haven't dived into "really" learning it myself (I don't want to confuse weapon techniques) I have however just stood back and watched the teaching in two systems quite a bit. I used the quotes from Gary Lam because they best excemplified what I observed.

As such in this case I am little more than a messenger. There is more to it of course but the instruction I have seen is, as I said, excellent in one respect because it gives you a better appreciation of timing and distance but it also, again just what I observed, rams home the idea of closing rapidly. Now of course the idea is that through the use of simultaneous attack and defense you penetrate your opponents defenses and succeed but again, it is taking the unarmed Philosophy (which includes rapid closing) and applying it to the BJD. That is why I see, again just my experience, the BJD as being more a tool to build upon the existing empty hand side. The problem is, for this topic (and I understand you disagree with the premise @KPM has put forth, it reinforces what he sees as a negative.

Again, no comments about what you are taught. You clearly have been taught differently and that to me is a good thing.

I have also said elsewhere something else. Fighting is fighting. Someone who is skilled in a similar method of fighting can look at a system and understand what is going on. Example a Wrestler can look at a Judoka and say "hey I get that". An FMA guy can look at HEMA and say "hey I get that". The reverse also holds true of course.

 

[KPM]

Here is another pretty good analysis of how Boxing and Wing Chun complement each other:

 

[Juany118]

I am not speaking to how you learn it. As you said you speak of your teaching. I haven't dived into "really" learning it myself (I don't want to confuse weapon techniques) I have however just stood back and watched the teaching in two systems quite a bit. I used the quotes from Gary Lam because they best excemplified what I observed.

As such in this case I am little more than a messenger. There is more to it of course but the instruction I have seen is, as I said, excellent in one respect because it gives you a better appreciation of timing and distance but it also, again just what I observed, rams home the idea of closing rapidly. Now of course the idea is that through the use of simultaneous attack and defense you penetrate your opponents defenses and succeed but again, it is taking the unarmed Philosophy (which includes rapid closing) and applying it to the BJD. That is why I see, again just my experience, the BJD as being more a tool to build upon the existing empty hand side. The problem is, for this topic (and I understand you disagree with the premise @KPM has put forth, it reinforces what he sees as a negative.

Again, no comments about what you are taught. You clearly have been taught differently and that to me is a good thing.

I have also said elsewhere something else. Fighting is fighting. Someone who is skilled in a similar method of fighting can look at a system and understand what is going on. Example a Wrestler can look at a Judoka and say "hey I get that". An FMA guy can look at HEMA and say "hey I get that". The reverse also holds true of course.

Note for the last part. Saying "I get that" doesn't mean they can do it. All it means is that they have the understanding of combat theory and biomechanics to understand what they are seeing.

Another note. What I may he seeing may not be the original intent of BJD. Obviously people don't walk around with such blades strapped to them anymore. I am sure "back in the day" the BJD were an end in and of themselves but now, again not all Lineages, it often is used as a tool to enhance the understanding of empty hand.

 

[Juany118]

Here is another pretty good analysis of how Boxing and Wing Chun complement each other:

Also, here is an example of how it works the other way around...

Now there is some debate as to whether Guro Dan was teaching Silva JKD trapping (origin WC) or Kali. I think during the fights after the announcers said Kali but regardless it seemed to serve him well in the Octagon and the trapping principles are the same for either art.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Panantukan!

 

[Juany118]

^^^^^ Panantukan!

My first instinct is to say it's the inosanto Kali I know. Obviously that has panantukan elements. I only hesitate because I've seen some JKD guys very similar thing so I don't want to make a definitive statement since I wasn't in the room.

 

[wckf92]

The goal of any violent encounter is to....walk away.

Fixed that for you Bro

 

[Nobody Important]

Fixed that for you Bro

If you lose, I doubt you'll walk away.

 

[drop bear]

Also, here is an example of how it works the other way around...

Now there is some debate as to whether Guro Dan was teaching Silva JKD trapping (origin WC) or Kali. I think during the fights after the announcers said Kali but regardless it seemed to serve him well in the Octagon and the trapping principles are the same for either art.

Ever since anderson silva trained with Steven Segal. I have been a bit wary of at he is actually learning in these sessions.

 

[Danny T]

Here is another pretty good analysis of how Boxing and Wing Chun complement each other:

Interesting...
David Erath (Hertao) was a wing chun and pekiti-tirsia kali student of my prior to his moving to Austria a few years ago.

 

[drop bear]

Here is another pretty good analysis of how Boxing and Wing Chun complement each other:

they hand trap in fight sports by the way.

 

[Juany118]

Ever since anderson silva trained with Steven Segal. I have been a bit wary of at he is actually learning in these sessions.

I would hope that you would say that Dan Inosanto has a little bit more credibility than Steven Seagal. Guro Dan has a long list of students who have been pro-fighters and coaches in everything from MMA to Shoot wrestling. Guro Dan, unlike people like Seagal, has made his life the martial arts. He never stops studying himself and learning new things. Heck he got his black belt in BJJ from John Machado (who doesn't just hand em out) when he was in his 70s. The man is a mutant of some sort.

 

[drop bear]

I would hope that you would say that Dan Inosanto has a little bit more credibility than Steven Seagal. Guro Dan has a long list of students who have been pro-fighters and coaches in everything from MMA to Shoot wrestling. Guro Dan, unlike people like Seagal, has made his life the martial arts. He never stops studying himself and learning new things. Heck he got his black belt in BJJ from John Machado (who doesn't just hand em out) when he was in his 70s. The man is a mutant of some sort.

No. I consider dan credible. Dan teaching Anderson silva just not no much. As I think he does that more for the performance factor.

 

[Juany118]

No. I consider dan credible. Dan teaching Anderson silva just not no much. As I think he does that more for the performance factor.

Oh I see so you're more talking about Silva and his own self promotion. I wouldn't dispute that.

 

[LFJ]

There is more to it of course but the instruction I have seen is, as I said, excellent in one respect because it gives you a better appreciation of timing and distance but it also, again just what I observed, rams home the idea of closing rapidly. Now of course the idea is that through the use of simultaneous attack and defense you penetrate your opponents defenses and succeed but again, it is taking the unarmed Philosophy (which includes rapid closing) and applying it to the BJD.

For me, closing is quite different in unarmed vs BJD, for reasons that should be obvious.

When unarmed VT closes, it gets in tight to smother the opponent, disrupting their balance and facing.

When the opponent is armed with knives, that becomes an unintelligent strategy.

Usually, we'll maintain safe distance with highly mobile, evasive footwork and take out the weapon arm as it is presented, before closing.

We can also be the aggressor and pressure in quickly, but in doing so we still maintain safe distance by angling to the "blind side" while again taking out the weapon arm first, and even holding that line as we go in to finish.

We are cutting them off (convenient pun) with the angles we use, to avoid facing two knives at once, like in unarmed, but we aren't closing in the same way as unarmed to disrupt balance by attacking center. That's too dangerous.

In unarmed we don't have to worry about a spent punch slicing us open as it's retracted. Hence, there is no need to maintain distance and focus on the arm while getting to the blindside, as I see TWC do in its unarmed strategy. We can safely drive straight through and destroy their center (not meaning up the middle).

We are also opposite in direction of development, as you guys know.

Instead of applying unarmed philosophy to BJD, we take certain tactics from the knives into unarmed, but obviously the strategy is different.

When at long range unarmed, the mobile, evasive footwork is more like BJD, as are drawing and angling tactics. When closing, it becomes more LDBG in strategy and tactics combined with BJD flanking concepts.

As previously stated, VT prefers to close and finish, but what if we are outclassed at that range or in that moment? We can recover to the outside to find another tactical entry, or remain at distance and evade, bait and draw while keeping the opponent at bay with kicks, well-placed kicks that can also end fights.

Still no need to resort to other styles for any of this. We can just look at the weapons.
That might not work if weapons are based on empty-hand, though.

 

[LFJ]

they hand trap in fight sports by the way.

That sounds like a bit of a misnomer.

I wouldn't really call pulling or slapping an arm out of the way "trapping".

The word "trap" sounds like what some people in WC talk about being able to do, covering two arms with one hand while striking with the other, actually trapping both the opponent's arms so they have no free arm to defend with.

Now, I'd like to see that in fight sports.

 

[KangTsai]

Pretty interesting, if not a bit redundant.

 

[KPM]

Here is someone that has recognized that Wing Chun lacks a "long range game" and has taken measures to correct it. However, I don't find his method very appealing and still think that western Boxing offers the most viable and useful answer.

 

[Juany118]

Here is someone that has recognized that Wing Chun lacks a "long range game" and has taken measures to correct it. However, I don't find his method very appealing and still think that western Boxing offers the most viable and useful answer.

First note the below idea is based on your "average" practitioner, not the one that can figure out integration on their own.


I think, if you aren't going to study one of the WC lineages that is sometimes seen as what you have called a "long fist" version, there is an issue with both this guy's idea and integrating boxing to fill the gap. The more I have been thinking about it, and I have pretty much settled on the idea that something that have very integrated weapons, out of the gate, is a better match. Certain styles of FMA, HEMA, I forget the name of the Thai version etc. Why?

WC has as a key concept "protect the center". The manner the guy in your video there does so made me cringe when I thought of this principle. Boxing accomplishes this BUT it does so in a way that, when under pressure, often violates another key concept, simultaneous attack and defense. The average practitioner will have a difficult time integrating boxing on the defensive side, I think. However arts that integrate empty hand and weapons from the beginning definitely have the idea of longer range AND center protection out of the gate.

A natural consequence of the integration of weapons with empty hand is that you train, out of the gate, to defend against an armed subject if you have no weapon, or need to draw. There is no cover in such a circumstance. You either need to divert their weapon while you draw theirs or take control. So while performing simultaneous attack and defense the principle of protecting the center is maintained because a knife in the torso hitting major blood vessels can be deadly.

Now if you have "that guy" teaching you, the one who is so good he can integrate arts with different principles I think boxing may be a good choice. Thing is how common is "that guy"? So one should perhaps, look to arts that share the principles, even if under a different name, to make integrating it yourself easier.