Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

Speaking as a BJJ/Muay Thai practitioner who loves MMA and learns a lot from watching it: no. MMA is a standard which some people judge martial arts by. As much as I love and learn from MMA, I recognize that a) there are techniques/tactics which work in certain other combative settings but not in MMA and b) there are techniques/tactics which work in MMA but not so well in certain other combative settings. That's coming from an MMA fan. There are plenty of other people who are not MMA fans and don't judge anything by the MMA standard.

And you have how many years experience in MA Tony? Probably more than some people have been alive.

I'm talking about the generation coming up now (15-25 year olds). They came of age right when Royce dominated the first UFC, and when MMA established itself as a legitimate sport. For that generation, MMA is martial arts, and the standard. Youtube is the library in which you go to in order to legitimize what you hear about.

I'm old enough to remember when a lot of people would laugh if you told them you took Karate or Kung Fu. They would say that it doesn't work, and proceed to mock karate/kung fu movements and make weird sounds. That sort of mocking doesn't happen with Bjj/MMA, because its legitimized through the modern information feeding tube.

Who however is judging martial arts by MMA, only the fan boys again. The rest of the world doesn't care.

Clearly it does, or you wouldn't be seeing classical styles responding to it with their "anti-grappling" nonsense.

 

[Buka]

I'm talking about the generation coming up now (15-25 year olds). They came of age right when Royce dominated the first UFC, and when MMA established itself as a legitimate sport. For that generation, MMA is martial arts, and the standard. Youtube is the library in which you go to in order to legitimize what you hear about.

I never thought of it in that way before. But, damn, that sure does seem to be the truth.

 

[Tez3]

However that 15-25 year old group is exactly the group that is coming into MMA without a background of any other art. In Europe though it was a long time before the UFC started making an impression, so this age group has actually grown up with home grown fighters and promotions. We probably didn't hear of the UFC until a lot later than Americans so our perceptions are going to be different. The first UFCs we had here were poorly attended as we had a couple of promotions then that did better. We'd had a couple of fighters in the earlier UFCs in America but it probably wasn't until Bisping fought that people here really started taking notice that a big publicity push by the UFC.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And you have how many years experience in MA Tony? Probably more than some people have been alive.

33 years at this point. Man, I ought to be a lot better than I am by now.

I'm talking about the generation coming up now (15-25 year olds). They came of age right when Royce dominated the first UFC, and when MMA established itself as a legitimate sport. For that generation, MMA is martial arts, and the standard. Youtube is the library in which you go to in order to legitimize what you hear about.

Perhaps you're right. On the other hand, as far as I know there are still plenty of 15-25 year olds training in martial arts which aren't represented in MMA. Obviously they aren't all judging their arts by what they see in the UFC.

 

[Hanzou]

However that 15-25 year old group is exactly the group that is coming into MMA without a background of any other art. In Europe though it was a long time before the UFC started making an impression, so this age group has actually grown up with home grown fighters and promotions. We probably didn't hear of the UFC until a lot later than Americans so our perceptions are going to be different. The first UFCs we had here were poorly attended as we had a couple of promotions then that did better. We'd had a couple of fighters in the earlier UFCs in America but it probably wasn't until Bisping fought that people here really started taking notice that a big publicity push by the UFC.

Well that's kind of my point. We have 15 year olds doing MMA and participating in NHB competitions by the time they're 18. Its a different world now, and it's because what happened in the first UFC.

Im fine with admitting things may be a bit different in Europe, but considering that you also have MAs reacting to MMA there as well, I can't be totally off base. When I say reacting to MMA, I'm talking about styles that had no ground fighting to speak of 20 years ago now suddenly having ground fighting (oftentimes with laughable results) or some form of anti-grappling. Basically anything that will ease their student's fear of the crazed MMA guy rolling them on the concrete and choking them out.

This is occurring because MMA is a legitimate threat to TMA businesses, and its a legitimate threat because the younger generation is geared toward MMA more so than TMA.

Why? Because a 20 year old can go on YouTube and see some guy get choked out by Kron Gracie, knocked out by Chris Weidman, or thrown to the canvas by Ronda Rousey. What's the TMA equivalent? Point Karate? Form competitions? Board breaking? Some guy holding up a weight with his mouth?

A young person looking to kick *** or defend themselves simply isn't impressed by that stuff anymore.

 

[Tez3]

Well that's kind of my point. We have 15 year olds doing MMA and participating in NHB competitions by the time they're 18. Its a different world now, and it's because what happened in the first UFC.

Im fine with admitting things may be a bit different in Europe, but considering that you also have MAs reacting to MMA there as well, I can't be totally off base. When I say reacting to MMA, I'm talking about styles that had no ground fighting to speak of 20 years ago now suddenly having ground fighting (oftentimes with laughable results) or some form of anti-grappling. Basically anything that will ease their student's fear of the crazed MMA guy rolling them on the concrete and choking them out.

This is occurring because MMA is a legitimate threat to TMA businesses, and its a legitimate threat because the younger generation is geared toward MMA more so than TMA.

Why? Because a 20 year old can go on YouTube and see some guy get choked out by Kron Gracie, knocked out by Chris Weidman, or thrown to the canvas by Ronda Rousey. What's the TMA equivalent? Point Karate? Form competitions? Board breaking? Some guy holding up a weight with his mouth?

A young person looking to kick *** or defend themselves simply isn't impressed by that stuff anymore.

but it has always been this way, we've had it when TKD was introduced here, when Bruce Lee came onto our screens, when kick boxing became fashionable, each new thing is disparaged by the 'old ones' and vice versa. Bruce Lee especially had youngsters declaiming that karate, etc was dead. Some karate schools added 'kick boxing' classes, some places said they teach JKD. It's nothing new. Sometime soon there will be something turn up and the MMA people and the TMA people will be on the same 'side' as it were. Most people don't really worry about it but concentrate on what we are doing. We still have enough 'old style' TMA people around who are well respected by everyone. WE have MMA people who still respect the styles they came from, there's nothing new under the sun.

 

[drop bear]

Not really.
Why would they even bother to try it when you have MMA fan boys doing everything possible to disparage and mock the system.

All you have to do is take a look on the internet , you have these young smart arses who make it their lifes work to put **** on every Wing Chun video they see , uninformed people see that and think its all true what these morons say.

So why would any up and coming MMA person go against that trend and end up being ridiculed by their peer group to learn Wing Chun.
Honestly with the hatchet job these ball bags do on Wing Chun over the internet , its a bloody wonder Wing Chun schools get any new students at all , let alone MMA guys.

Blame Bruce Lee. He started it.

OK let's have a look at this style bagging. We do an open mat every Saturday. We invite other styles to come in and spar. Chunners could come in clean house and silence the critics. This is common in mma and bjj.

That is our reputation on the line all the time. Which is fine because reputation is supposed to be put at risk. That is what resisted training is designed to do.

I don't believe chun does that and understandably gets a degree of mockery for it. You can't present yourself as an alternitive and not produce the goods.

 

[drop bear]

Speaking as a BJJ/Muay Thai practitioner who loves MMA and learns a lot from watching it: no. MMA is a standard which some people judge martial arts by. As much as I love and learn from MMA, I recognize that a) there are techniques/tactics which work in certain other combative settings but not in MMA and b) there are techniques/tactics which work in MMA but not so well in certain other combative settings. That's coming from an MMA fan. There are plenty of other people who are not MMA fans and don't judge anything by the MMA standard.

Yeah that works until it falls off a cliff.

What standard do they judge it by? Cue anecdotal evidence.

 

[mook jong man]

Blame Bruce Lee. He started it.

OK let's have a look at this style bagging. We do an open mat every Saturday. We invite other styles to come in and spar. Chunners could come in clean house and silence the critics. This is common in mma and bjj.

That is our reputation on the line all the time. Which is fine because reputation is supposed to be put at risk. That is what resisted training is designed to do.

I don't believe chun does that and understandably gets a degree of mockery for it. You can't present yourself as an alternitive and not produce the goods.

Are you going to let the Wing Chun guys on the mats wearing normal shoes so they can smash your shins in with low heel kicks , because we don't train in bare feet.

Are you going to allow them to not wear gloves and strike to the neck , what about knee strikes into the bladder , how about having both your arms trapped as you cop a full body weight driven elbow strike down into your sternum.

Because that is how we roll , this stuff isn't meant for sport.

If you don't allow all that , then it is just an artificial game.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you going to let the Wing Chun guys on the mats wearing normal shoes so they can smash your shins in with low heel kicks , because we don't train in bare feet.

Are you going to allow them to not wear gloves and strike to the neck , what about knee strikes into the bladder , how about having both your arms trapped as you cop a full body weight driven elbow strike down into your sternum.

Because that is how we roll , this stuff isn't meant for sport.

If you don't allow all that , then it is just an artificial game.

Usually the only rules are no eye gouging. Beyond that, you shouldn't have a problem challenging a MMA or Gjj gym. They're usually pretty receptive to those sort of things.

As a Kung Fu artist, they'd probably be extremely receptive, and interested in the challenge. Just be ready to get recorded and put on YouTube when its over.

 

[mook jong man]

Usually the only rules are no eye gouging. Beyond that, you shouldn't have a problem challenging a MMA or Gjj gym. They're usually pretty receptive to those sort of things.

As a Kung Fu artist, they'd probably be extremely receptive, and interested in the challenge. Just be ready to get recorded and be put on YouTube when its over.

Eye gouge would be the least of your problems , a strike to the neck can kill you.

 

[Hanzou]

Eye gouge would be the least of your problems , a strike to the neck can kill you.

A lot of strikes can potentially be fatal. However, strikes to the neck were legal in Vale Tudo and the first UFCs.

To my knowledge no one died from such a strike in those competitions.

 

[mook jong man]

A lot of strikes can potentially be fatal. However, strikes to the neck were legal in Vale Tudo and the first UFCs.

To my knowledge no one died from such a strike in those competitions.

Depends who is doing the striking to the neck and what expertise they have doesn't it.
That funny wooden man thing we train on , there is a reason for that , it can take strikes that would seriously injure a live human being.

 

[drop bear]

Are you going to let the Wing Chun guys on the mats wearing normal shoes so they can smash your shins in with low heel kicks , because we don't train in bare feet.

Are you going to allow them to not wear gloves and strike to the neck , what about knee strikes into the bladder , how about having both your arms trapped as you cop a full body weight driven elbow strike down into your sternum.

Because that is how we roll , this stuff isn't meant for sport.

If you don't allow all that , then it is just an artificial game.

And see that works. MMA is not a death match. If you wanted to come in it would not be a street fight. Chances are you would not even get a full dose of hard mma. Because it is not about inviting people in and then bashing them.

But it falls off the cliff.

We don't see any actual death matches with full contact shin kicking.

Shin kicks that is going to be your super weapon?

Anyway.

The mocking comes from this. You put your style on a par with mma. And can not compete on its terms. Or even vaguely on its terms.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of strikes can potentially be fatal. However, strikes to the neck were legal in Vale Tudo and the first UFCs.

To my knowledge no one died from such a strike in those competitions.

Mate of mine has a funny story about an arakan guy judo chopping some guy in a MMA match.

 

[mook jong man]

And see that works. MMA is not a death match. If you wanted to come in it would not be a street fight. Chances are you would not even get a full dose of hard mma. Because it is not about inviting people in and then bashing them.

But it falls off the cliff.

We don't see any actual death matches with full contact shin kicking.

Shin kicks that is going to be your super weapon?

Anyway.

The mocking comes from this. You put your style on a par with mma. And can not compete on its terms. Or even vaguely on its terms.

No a low heel kick to the shin does not kill you , but it will hurt like a ***** , momentarily halt your advance and stop you from getting into punching range and clinching range.

There is also the little matter of the chain punches that will be coming in at the rate of 7 to 8 a second directly after that , while you are trying to hobble around on one leg.

Get it through your heads , this stuff was not designed for sport.

 

[Hanzou]

Depends who is doing the striking to the neck and what expertise they have doesn't it.

Given its track record, it would appear that not many have the level of expertise necessary to disable, or severely injure someone with a neck strike. Hence why it's considered a low percentage technique.

That funny wooden man thing we train on , there is a reason for that , it can take strikes that would seriously injure a live human being.

And we both know that Wing Chun isn't the only MA that possesses strikes that can injure people. The reality is that it's far easier to choke someone out than it is to kill them with a neck strike.

 

[drop bear]

No a low heel kick to the shin does not kill you , but it will hurt like a ***** , momentarily halt your advance and stop you from getting into punching range and clinching range.

There is also the little matter of the chain punches that will be coming in at the rate of 7 to 8 a second directly after that , while you are trying to hobble around on one leg.

Get it through your heads , this stuff was not designed for sport.

And look I have no issue with anybody training for whatever reason they choose. But you can't compare martial arts unless you are willing to engage with them.

Otherwise it is mouth boxing.

 

[Steve]

Are you going to let the Wing Chun guys on the mats wearing normal shoes so they can smash your shins in with low heel kicks , because we don't train in bare feet.

Are you going to allow them to not wear gloves and strike to the neck , what about knee strikes into the bladder , how about having both your arms trapped as you cop a full body weight driven elbow strike down into your sternum.

Because that is how we roll , this stuff isn't meant for sport.

If you don't allow all that , then it is just an artificial game.

I'd spar with you in your shoes, if you could guarantee me that you didn't wear your shoes other than to train in. The shoes thing isn't a safety issue. It's a hygiene issue. You don't wear shoes on the mats, and you don't walk around barefoot off the mats, particularly outside or in the bathrooms. That's how staph infections, ringworm and impetigo occur.

 

[drop bear]

I'd spar with you in your shoes, if you could guarantee me that you didn't wear your shoes other than to train in. The shoes thing isn't a safety issue. It's a hygiene issue. You don't wear shoes on the mats, and you don't walk around barefoot off the mats, particularly outside or in the bathrooms. That's how staph infections, ringworm and impetigo occur.

I was thinking that after it was posted. Because we have boxers that train In shoes. We have even been throwing on a GI and fighting in that. Because our coach is fighting in a Kudo comp soon.

But regardless I am happy to spar either punching or wrestling. Which takes away huge advantages for me.I can see why everybody has to fight eyegouge and elbows.