Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[jezr74]

I've been thinking about this, because I think there is validity to many of the statements, just different perspectives. But one that stuck out to me was why MMA appears to be more popular to BJJ people, and a statement asking what edge is given to BJJ (Think Hanzou asked) in UFC. The problem is using "UFC" in the context is we start thinking of the UFC rule set that is fairly open.

Reading a few articles and some basic research into steps to fight in UFC, I saw a pattern in amateur rules, one being no hitting the face when in mount (think is right term), wouldn't this give a distinctive edge to ground grappling arts? And attract these practitioners more than others, and less from striking or "TMA's"? So it's not about difficulty, it's more about the path.

 

[drop bear]

I've been thinking about this, because I think there is validity to many of the statements, just different perspectives. But one that stuck out to me was why MMA appears to be more popular to BJJ people, and a statement asking what edge is given to BJJ (Think Hanzou asked) in UFC. The problem is using "UFC" in the context is we start thinking of the UFC rule set that is fairly open.

Reading a few articles and some basic research into steps to fight in UFC, I saw a pattern in amateur rules, one being no hitting the face when in mount (think is right term), wouldn't this give a distinctive edge to ground grappling arts? And attract these practitioners more than others, and less from striking or "TMA's"? So it's not about difficulty, it's more about the path.

There are plenty of opportunities for face hitting. There are leagues where it is not allowed like after shock. But you can easily find fights that allow it for first time fighters.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hBEOybZCU48
Our twelve week course ends in fights with GNP to the face.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B9s57kHAD0A
And as a side note one of our guys who is a boxer won an after shock by busting someone's jaw. So striking still plays a part.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, no GnP would be kind of odd for MMA leagues.

 

[Tez3]

We do have promotions here who have no head shots in amateur fights, some have only head shots standing but with 'big gloves'. Some have head shots in all fights am, semi pro and pro. We have a lot of very small shows who will have different rules for different fights. it's the consequence of having no governing body, basically you can do what you like. The big promotions like Cagewarriors will follow the rules used in the UFC but for the little show that is held in the local working men's club well, who knows.
It does cause a lot of debate. Most think that having MMA without head shots is pointless, others think that beginners have to start somewhere. It won't be settled until we have a governing body...which of course sets off another lot of heated discussions!

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, no GnP would be kind of odd for MMA leagues.

It depends who you want to attract. If you want the best then no. If you want a league where people can have a go with less risk then yes. Both have their merits.

By the way ground striking won't really favour the striker that much.

 

[Steve]

I've been thinking about this, because I think there is validity to many of the statements, just different perspectives. But one that stuck out to me was why MMA appears to be more popular to BJJ people, and a statement asking what edge is given to BJJ (Think Hanzou asked) in UFC. The problem is using "UFC" in the context is we start thinking of the UFC rule set that is fairly open.

Reading a few articles and some basic research into steps to fight in UFC, I saw a pattern in amateur rules, one being no hitting the face when in mount (think is right term), wouldn't this give a distinctive edge to ground grappling arts? And attract these practitioners more than others, and less from striking or "TMA's"? So it's not about difficulty, it's more about the path.

the rules in MMA have evolved in very specific ways to benefit strikers. It's not so much that grapplers had an unfair advantage, particularly once everyone began training in grappling. Rather, it is because grappling is an art that the lay person doesn't really understand. And because they don't understand it, they don't enjoy it. I don't have a problem with it, really. It's like when the NFL changes the rules to encourage more points scored. It's more exciting to watch.

Some very general ways in which modern MMA favors grapplers and inhibits grappling include the referee's discretion to stand the fight up or reset in the middle from a clinch. For a grappler, one advantage is the grind, and it's often a war of attrition. Lay and pray isn't exciting to watch in MMA. It's actively discouraged, but it's an indication of total control on the part of a solid grappler.

The uniform itself... no shirts, no pants. Sweat is slippery. Arm locks and leg locks are part and parcel within BJJ and other forms of grappling. But in the UFC, they are increasingly rare because a little bit of friction helps secure the technique. You'll see more armlocks in women's MMA than men's because women are more likely to wear a rashguard. But, people once wore a gi as often as not. they don't do that anymore, and it's an advantage to the strikers.

Scoring... even today, if you are attacking from the bottom, forcing your opponent to defend for an entire round, you risk losing that round. Not because you were in any danger or took any damage at all. Just because the guy on top was on top.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't be a good grappler. It just means that the rules encourage striking, because striking is more exciting to watch and more accessible for the lay person to undrestand.

 

[Buka]

the rules in MMA have evolved in very specific ways to benefit strikers. It's not so much that grapplers had an unfair advantage, particularly once everyone began training in grappling. Rather, it is because grappling is an art that the lay person doesn't really understand. And because they don't understand it, they don't enjoy it. I don't have a problem with it, really. It's like when the NFL changes the rules to encourage more points scored. It's more exciting to watch.

Some very general ways in which modern MMA favors grapplers and inhibits grappling include the referee's discretion to stand the fight up or reset in the middle from a clinch. For a grappler, one advantage is the grind, and it's often a war of attrition. Lay and pray isn't exciting to watch in MMA. It's actively discouraged, but it's an indication of total control on the part of a solid grappler.

The uniform itself... no shirts, no pants. Sweat is slippery. Arm locks and leg locks are part and parcel within BJJ and other forms of grappling. But in the UFC, they are increasingly rare because a little bit of friction helps secure the technique. You'll see more armlocks in women's MMA than men's because women are more likely to wear a rashguard. But, people once wore a gi as often as not. they don't do that anymore, and it's an advantage to the strikers.

Scoring... even today, if you are attacking from the bottom, forcing your opponent to defend for an entire round, you risk losing that round. Not because you were in any danger or took any damage at all. Just because the guy on top was on top.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't be a good grappler. It just means that the rules encourage striking, because striking is more exciting to watch and more accessible for the lay person to undrestand.

So much truth to all that. Judging in MMA - here in Massachusetts, when MMA first got taken over by the state Athletic commission, the judges they were going to use were the judges they had always used - boxing judges. I couldn't come up with a worse idea if I spent all day on it. A group of us were called on to put on judging clinics and to explain grappling to the boxing judges. You have no idea how difficult that is. Fortunately, it's improved over time. But they don't put on clinics any more, even though they have more new judges. To the uniformed, the bottom game is a mystery. It's why I firmly believe all judges should be forced to train in both striking and grappling.

I think the "lay and pray" is getting less and less as the general transition game is getting better and better in MMA. I tend to lay and pray a lot, maybe because I'm better defensively on the ground than I am offensively.

I think the general public is getting more educated in watching MMA. Heck, it's everywhere on TV. I also think Joe Rogan is doing a fantastic job giving insight to both us (people who train) and to the public in general. Some may not like him, but if I was a congressman I'd start a bill that made him the only color commentator in the game - that's how good a job I think he's doing.

 

[MJS]

I certainly agree that times have definitely changed, and you need a very well rounded toolset to win in MMA. I was just merely pointing out that the semi-pure Bjj stylists still exist in MMA, and that Bjj is still the cornerstone of MMA.

Of course, and I didn't mean to imply that BJJ wasn't a staple in MMA.

In your opinion...if Royce Gracie was to step back into the ring, how do you feel he would do against the fighters of today?

 

[MJS]

Has anyone ever stopped to consider that some instructors may purposely discourage or prevent their students from competing because it would expose their training method as ineffective?

This includes instructors who created martial systems and are long dead.

That is a likely possibility. As I've said, I enjoy competition, as it's certainly a good testing ground. Of course, I don't feel that someone should be forced into competing. If someone doesn't want to do it, then fine, don't do it. However, if you're not going to compete, then you should be testing yourself in an alternative fashion.

 

[MJS]

A seminar is different than in the cage. Again, Rousey was able to modify Judo because Judo's already existing training mechanism made it possible for that transition to take place. You just needed someone to be willing to modify it, and that modification simply required going from gi to no-gi. If you know how to throw a fully resisting opponent with a gi on, throwing someone without the gi is simply a matter of modifying your grips. We do the exact same thing in Bjj in no-gi competition. The fact that Judokas are now doing it is an awesome thing to see.

Yes, just like Lyoto Machida I'm sure, modified his TMA, for the cage.

I have nothing against Aikido, I just simply don't believe that Aikido works in the octagon for the exact reason Bas Rutten said it wouldn't work.

Umm...ok...so who cares if it works/doesn't work, in the octagon? You said yourself, here, that not everyone trains for the same reasons.

 

[MJS]

Except that mmaers cross train in tma,s. They grade as high as any of the people who do not train mma. They are every bit the sub style.

Really? And here I was thinking that the majority have started in TMA and transitioned to MMA.

 

[drop bear]

Really? And here I was thinking that the majority have started in TMA and transitioned to MMA.

Yes and no. There was not the opportunity to train mma as widely as there was to train tma. So yes the current crop have tma backgrounds.

Six seven years ago. I walked into dominance in Melbourne. Which is a reputable gym and was told I could not train mma without having a background in jits or thai. Nowadays that is not the case. There are dedicated mma gyms you can train as soon as you walk in the door.

Then you can train in a tma if you want as well.

 

[Steve]

Of course, and I didn't mean to imply that BJJ wasn't a staple in MMA.

In your opinion...if Royce Gracie was to step back into the ring, how do you feel he would do against the fighters of today?

Well, he's pushing 50 I think. So.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hanzou]

Of course, and I didn't mean to imply that BJJ wasn't a staple in MMA.

In your opinion...if Royce Gracie was to step back into the ring, how do you feel he would do against the fighters of today?

Definitely not as well as he did in the first UFCs. Mainly because everyone who does MMA practices Bjj on some level.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have rolled with Royce once when he was in his prime and he was phenomenal. In his prime he would have an opportunity to compete. However,
his lack really good striking skills would put him at a big disadvantage compared to today's athletes. Not to mention the lack of a gi would change things
a bit for him as well. Rules have changed as well and if not enough action is going on they would stand them back up. Yet another thing Royce would have
to deal with. Yet, the biggest thing going against Royce would be the overall athleticism of today's athletes. Compared to the athleticism in the
past and the overall lack of ground skills that some mma fighters had in the past today's mma athletes are head and shoulders above. Still, what Royce did
was incredible because he did it against guys of any size, shape and mostly against guy's that were far bigger and stronger than he was! Those old UFC fights
were really cool because of that if you haven't watched them please do as they are still cool! Royce is a legend and in real life a great guy!

 

[Buka]

Yes, that first UFC was something! And not one of those matches went one full 5 minute round. Most ended in under one minute.

My, how times have changed. And we get to watch it. It's been so much fun!

 

[Hanzou]

I have rolled with Royce once when he was in his prime and he was phenomenal. In his prime he would have an opportunity to compete. However,
his lack really good striking skills would put him at a big disadvantage compared to today's athletes. Not to mention the lack of a gi would change things
a bit for him as well. Rules have changed as well and if not enough action is going on they would stand them back up. Yet another thing Royce would have
to deal with. Yet, the biggest thing going against Royce would be the overall athleticism of today's athletes. Compared to the athleticism in the
past and the overall lack of ground skills that some mma fighters had in the past today's mma athletes are head and shoulders above. Still, what Royce did
was incredible because he did it against guys of any size, shape and mostly against guy's that were far bigger and stronger than he was! Those old UFC fights
were really cool because of that if you haven't watched them please do as they are still cool! Royce is a legend and in real life a great guy!

Rickson did the same thing in Vale Tudo as well.

I highly recommend watching the documentary "Choke" if you haven't already. You can watch it on YouTube.

It's really a great look inside the mind of a martial arts master.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes "Choke" is a great dvd. I would highly recommend it as well.

 

[MJS]

Yes and no. There was not the opportunity to train mma as widely as there was to train tma. So yes the current crop have tma backgrounds.

Six seven years ago. I walked into dominance in Melbourne. Which is a reputable gym and was told I could not train mma without having a background in jits or thai. Nowadays that is not the case. There are dedicated mma gyms you can train as soon as you walk in the door.

Then you can train in a tma if you want as well.

Oh, ok...cool! See, you learn something new every day!

 

[MJS]

I have rolled with Royce once when he was in his prime and he was phenomenal. In his prime he would have an opportunity to compete. However,
his lack really good striking skills would put him at a big disadvantage compared to today's athletes. Not to mention the lack of a gi would change things
a bit for him as well. Rules have changed as well and if not enough action is going on they would stand them back up. Yet another thing Royce would have
to deal with. Yet, the biggest thing going against Royce would be the overall athleticism of today's athletes. Compared to the athleticism in the
past and the overall lack of ground skills that some mma fighters had in the past today's mma athletes are head and shoulders above. Still, what Royce did
was incredible because he did it against guys of any size, shape and mostly against guy's that were far bigger and stronger than he was! Those old UFC fights
were really cool because of that if you haven't watched them please do as they are still cool! Royce is a legend and in real life a great guy!

Thanks Brian! This was pretty much where I was going with my questions, although I probably didn't word it right. Anyways, yes, you summed it up very well. I didn't want to imply that Royce wasn't a legend...he certainly was, and he, IMO, opened up the eyes of many, to the importance to learning the ground game. Age aside, I was going more along the lines of the 1 dimensional fighter. That's pretty much all you saw back in the day. Today...you need to have a complete package.