Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd spar with you in your shoes, ...

You don't want to spar against any CMA guy who has shoes on.

I don't have a pair of shoes as shown in the following clip, but I do have a pair of shoes that has metal protection on the instep. It's very effective for the roundhouse kick. In CMA, the shoes is a weapon.

 

[Flying Crane]

You don't want to spar against any CMA guy who has shoes on.

I don't have a pair of shoes as shown in the following clip, but I do have a pair of shoes that has metal protection on the instep. It's very effective for the roundhouse kick. In CMA, the shoes is a weapon.

When you say "any CMA guy" then you are presuming to speak for other people and not just for yourself. I need to ask you to not do that. I for one, am not so paranoid as to make a habit of wearing weaponized shoes.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you say "any CMA guy" then you are presuming to speak for other people and not just for yourself. I need to ask you to not do that. I for one, am not so paranoid as to make a habit of wearing weaponized shoes.

It was just a joke. Sometime it's fun to add some laugh into 41 pages of serious discussion.

 

[Steve]

Are you going to let the Wing Chun guys on the mats wearing normal shoes so they can smash your shins in with low heel kicks , because we don't train in bare feet.

Are you going to allow them to not wear gloves and strike to the neck , what about knee strikes into the bladder , how about having both your arms trapped as you cop a full body weight driven elbow strike down into your sternum.

Because that is how we roll , this stuff isn't meant for sport.

If you don't allow all that , then it is just an artificial game.

So, you guys can train... what? Maybe once a month? Can't be more often than that, because you'd have to get out of the hospital after your training.

How long does it take for your shattered shins to heal before you can train again? How many people have you accidentally sent to the ER in training with your super deadly, un-gloved strikes to the neck? How many of your training partners have you sent to the hosptial with a knee strike to his bladder or struck him in the sternum with your elbow? Because, you're saying that's how you roll. As you say, it's not an artificial game. I don't believe it. And if you DO roll like that, MMA isn't the reason you have no students. It's that you guys are a bunch of lunatics.

 

[mook jong man]

So, you guys can train... what? Maybe once a month? Can't be more often than that, because you'd have to get out of the hospital after your training.

How long does it take for your shattered shins to heal before you can train again? How many people have you accidentally sent to the ER in training with your super deadly, un-gloved strikes to the neck? How many of your training partners have you sent to the hosptial with a knee strike to his bladder or struck him in the sternum with your elbow? Because, you're saying that's how you roll. As you say, it's not an artificial game. I don't believe it. And if you DO roll like that, MMA isn't the reason you have no students. It's that you guys are a bunch of lunatics.

There are ways to train reallistically and still stay safe.
You can train low heel kicks on kick shields or against somebody with heavy leg protection on like cricket leg pads , or those plastic baseball leg guards , they work pretty well.
Strikes to the throat and neck can be trained on the wooden dummy , on focus mitts or kick shields , or on the partner by slightly modifying the strike and hitting the upper chest or pulling back the strike.

Knee strikes to the groin and bladder have to be trained on kick shields , or slowly on a partner wearing groin protection.
Biu jee elbow strikes can be practiced full power on focus mitts , or kick shields , if doing them on a partners sternum it's a good idea for the partner to be wearing a chest protector and the striker to seriously limit the amount of power they use.
When targeting the back of the neck , commonsense applies and you pull back the elbow strike just short of contact.

Training this way with heavy gear on , is certainly not conducted all the time , but occasionally you have to low heel kick a persons leg for real , at full speed and full power and the only way to safely do that is with serious leg protection on.
One of the reasons that chi sau came about , is because it is a very safe way for Wing Chun people to spar.

 

[Steve]

There are ways to train reallistically and still stay safe.
You can train low heel kicks on kick shields or against somebody with heavy leg protection on like cricket leg pads , or those plastic baseball leg guards , they work pretty well.
Strikes to the throat and neck can be trained on the wooden dummy , on focus mitts or kick shields , or on the partner by slightly modifying the strike and hitting the upper chest or pulling back the strike.

Knee strikes to the groin and bladder have to be trained on kick shields , or slowly on a partner wearing groin protection.
Biu jee elbow strikes can be practiced full power on focus mitts , or kick shields , if doing them on a partners sternum it's a good idea for the partner to be wearing a chest protector and the striker to seriously limit the amount of power they use.
When targeting the back of the neck , commonsense applies and you pull back the elbow strike just short of contact.

Training this way with heavy gear on , is certainly not conducted all the time , but occasionally you have to low heel kick a persons leg for real , at full speed and full power and the only way to safely do that is with serious leg protection on.
One of the reasons that chi sau came about , is because it is a very safe way for Wing Chun people to spar.

But you can't spar safely with an mma'ist? Give me a break.


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[mook jong man]

But you can't spar safely with an mma'ist? Give me a break.


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Oh ok , so I'm just supposed to let somebody take me down without hitting them at full power , so that they can choke me out and put it up on Youtube and make me look like an idiot.

Not bloody likely.

 

[Steve]

Oh ok , so I'm just supposed to let somebody take me down without hitting them at full power , so that they can choke me out and put it up on Youtube and make me look like an idiot.

Not bloody likely.

ah. So it's ego. That makes more sense. Very destructive and petty reason, but at least understandable. Have to put the ego aside at some point.


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[RTKDCMB]

A lot of strikes can potentially be fatal. However, strikes to the neck were legal in Vale Tudo and the first UFCs.

To my knowledge no one died from such a strike in those competitions.

I can't remember anyone attempting to use a neck strike in the first UFC's.

 

[drop bear]

Oh ok , so I'm just supposed to let somebody take me down without hitting them at full power , so that they can choke me out and put it up on Youtube and make me look like an idiot.

Not bloody likely.

Well yeah pretty much. That is what alive training is.sometimes you get caught and look silly. A sparring session is hardly going to be YouTubed though.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't remember anyone attempting to use a neck strike in the first UFC's.

You also don't see neck strikes in street altercations either.

There's a good reason for that; the neck isn't an easy target to hit when you're dealing with a moving, attacking opponent.

 

[K-man]

You also don't see neck strikes in street altercations either.

There's a good reason for that; the neck isn't an easy target to hit when you're dealing with a moving, attacking opponent.

That is total rubbish. In MMA you are not training to strike the neck. In Karate, Krav and Aikido we are training to strike the neck. Obviously you don't always have the opportunity to just walk in and strike the neck any more than you would walk straight in and apply a rear naked choke. However once the target is available you hit it. If the target presents initially then you can hit it right off. Krav 360 defence teaches just that. The very first strike is to the neck. Once the attacker is bent over there are multiple strikes to the neck.

However as Youtube is the only way to prove a point. Stop this video at the moment of impact. The strike is to the neck!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3q7FoD-uiOU

Kaiten Nage in Aikido starts with a strike to the neck. The exact same move is taught in Krav and is practised in a Karate as Mawashi Uke. Again from Aikido, after applying a Sankyo lock the cut down exposes the neck for the strike. Exactly the same move is taught in Krav as a defence against a knife thrust where you turn under the arm and cut down. In Karate it is one of the applications at the beginning of Seiunchin kata.

In MMA I would have thought a rear naked choke was difficult to apply when you are dealing with a moving, attacking opponent too. One you are in the right position or the opportunity arises, then you can apply the choke. No different to the neck strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, the best way to "test" your skill is to go to

- boxing tournament to test your striking skill.
- TKD tournament to test your kicking skill.
- Shuai-Chiao/Judo/wrestling tournament to test your throwing skill.
- BJJ tournament to test your ground skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your punching/kicking skill.
- Sanshou/Sanda tournament to test your punching/kicking/throwing skill.
- MMA tournament to test everything.

It doesn't matter how you train, if you take this "testing" approach, there will be no difference between TMA training and MMA training. All those "TMA vs. MMA" argument will have no meaning after that.

 

[Hanzou]

That is total rubbish. In MMA you are not training to strike the neck. In Karate, Krav and Aikido we are training to strike the neck. Obviously you don't always have the opportunity to just walk in and strike the neck any more than you would walk straight in and apply a rear naked choke. However once the target is available you hit it. If the target presents initially then you can hit it right off. Krav 360 defence teaches just that. The very first strike is to the neck.

Many Vale Tudo fighters and early UFC fighters were not MMA. I might have even seen a few neck strikes in early NHB bouts. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans really.

However as Youtube is the only way to prove a point. Stop this video at the moment of impact. The strike is to the neck!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3q7FoD-uiOU

Looked more like a forearm shot to the jaw, but okay.

Ive seen people get knocked out by a slap in the face. Doesn't change the fact that I wouldnt center my fighting ability on a face slap. I would center it around much higher percentage abilities.

In MMA I would have thought a rear naked choke was difficult to apply when you are dealing with a moving, attacking opponent too. One you are in the right position or the opportunity arises, then you can apply the choke. No different to the neck strike.

Actually it's quite different. The RNC is a much higher percentage move than a strike to the neck.

 

[drop bear]

You also don't see neck strikes in street altercations either.

There's a good reason for that; the neck isn't an easy target to hit when you're dealing with a moving, attacking opponent.

It works sort of. The chopping action opens you up to a hook. While being blocked in a conventional sense.

But if you get judo chopped it defiantly sucks. I don't actually think it is against the rules either.

You can do it in Thai grapples.

 

[jezr74]

IMO, the best way to "test" your skill is to go to

- boxing tournament to test your striking skill.
- TKD tournament to test your kicking skill.
- Shuai-Chiao/Judo/wrestling tournament to test your throwing skill.
- BJJ tournament to test your ground skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your punching/kicking skill.
- Sanshou/Sanda tournament to test your punching/kicking/throwing skill.
- MMA tournament to test everything.

It doesn't matter how you train, if you take this "testing" approach, there will be no difference between TMA training and MMA training. All those "TMA vs. MMA" argument will have no meaning after that.

Could you put capoeira in that list? If the final test is in an octagon as a form of validation, would you say it's suited even in the limitations of the octagon?

 

[jezr74]

As far as I know, aren't all of the styles a mixture of styles. Why is "MMA" considered mixed and not other styles?

If I look up any style, they have adapted and changed over time, teacher, culture etc.

Is the defining characteristic of MMA sport?

 

[drop bear]

As far as I know, aren't all of the styles a mixture of styles. Why is "MMA" considered mixed and not other styles?

If I look up any style, they have adapted and changed over time, teacher, culture etc.

Is the defining characteristic of MMA sport?

Rule set.

So it is invented backwards. They have the competition and develop the martial art to cope with it.

Like kick boxing that went from a platform for karate and tkd to its own system.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4wX2Y0oHiWI

 

[jezr74]

Rule set.

So it is invented backwards. They have the competition and develop the martial art to cope with it.

Like kick boxing that went from a platform for karate and tkd to its own system.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4wX2Y0oHiWI

Makes sense and I agree, so it's not a question that TMAs have more difficulty, it's just that TMA's may not have a lot to offer to the MMA rule set?

That could equally apply to any martial art, modern or traditional.

Looking at you own background, are their aspects or techniques from all MA styles that you would not bother with? Including, BJJ? The only reason I mention BJJ is because it is referred to a lot in this thread and the context I get is all of it is techniques is usable in MMA rule set. Is there some aspects that are not?

I'm not knocking MMA or BJJ or Traditional MA, just trying to understand the middle ground in this thread instead of the absolutes.