Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

Oi, the man wants logic. Okay once more for the man at the back. It's about which techniques work for which fighter, it's not the style, it's not that one is better than another it's about what the individual fighter finds good to use. It's not 'Aikido works/doesn't work' or 'BJJ is/isn't' best it's about what a fighter finds best to use. Techniques are tools a fighter uses, he will take the best tools for him from whatever he finds. It really is that simple. It's not the style that is best or not workable, it's all about the fighter.

Again, where are you pulling this argument from? No one is saying this works or that works. No one is saying this style is effective while this style is ineffective. The argument is that some martial arts supposedly have an advantage in the MMA format, and others don't. MMA rules supposedly favor one set of martial arts, while it supposedly doesn't favor another set of martial arts. Hence the title.

Please stay on topic.

 

[Tez3]

Again, where are you pulling this argument from? No one is saying this works or that works. No one is saying this style is effective while this style is ineffective. The argument is that some martial arts supposedly have an advantage in the MMA format, and others don't. MMA rules supposedly favor one set of martial arts, while it supposedly doesn't favor another set of martial arts. Hence the title.

Please stay on topic.

Oh dear. The argument that some martial arts have an advantage in MMA and some don't is not a good one for the reasons I've posted. The rules don't actually favour any one set of martial arts. I know the rules inside out backwards and forwards including those for am, semi and pro with variations for different promotions. I use them when reffing and judging. You don't have to believe me by the way I can't force you to be right.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh dear. The argument that some martial arts have an advantage in MMA and some don't is not a good one for the reasons I've posted.

The reasons you posted revolved around the accusation of style bashing, which didn't occur. However thank you for finally giving your opinion on the topic.

My personal theory is that training methods are the cause behind some styles being almost completely absent from MMA. Despite their differences, Boxing, Kickboxing, Bjj, Wrestling, and some types of karate have pretty similar training methodology; i.e. Lots of full contact sparring, and an active and open competition environment.

 

[Tez3]

The reasons you posted revolved around the accusation of style bashing, which didn't occur. However thank you for finally giving your opinion on the topic.

My personal theory is that training methods are the cause behind some styles being almost completely absent from MMA. Despite their differences, Boxing, Kickboxing, Bjj, Wrestling, and some types of karate have pretty similar training methodology; i.e. Lots of full contact sparring, and an active and open competition environment.

Sweetie, I didn't give any reasons for style bashing, you've obviously misunderstood my post. It's nice that you have a personal theory though. I do think everyone should have at least onepreferably more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This thread began because a poster stated that Bjj and other grappling arts had an advantage in the MMA format. To date, no one has come up with a logical reasoning why that is. Ironically, Aikido is also a grappling art, yet for some reason, the rules of MMA don't give that style an advantage, according to some, it actually gives it a disadvantage.

There are some interesting statements being made, and I would simply like to hear some logical reasoning behind those statements.

I can't speak for Aikido or TMA in general but I can speak for Chinese MA (CMA) in general. Here are some "logical reason" for CMA. Old Chinese saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 (you can Google this online) - 3 years of striking art training cannot match against 1 year of wrestling art training".

I include the following original Chinese text and the translation (not a good translation). But the main point is the "training method".

When the Chinese striking art systems (such as the long fist system) still works on the

- stance,
- footwork,
- solo form (striking into the thin air),

the Chinese wrestling art system (such as the Shuai-Chiao system) already works on

- distance,
- timing,
- contact,
- utilize opponent's body weight.

I'm sure when the "striking art" adapt the "throwing art" training method, that old Chinese saying won't be true any more.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
三年拳不如当年跤吗 (Is it true that 3 years of form training cannot match against 1 year of wrestling training)？

这主要跟练习方式有关。传统武术拳法的练习重视基础、讲求按部就班，要先练桩步（马步）、肌力、柔韧度等基本功，然后练基本拳、脚动作，接着才练套路，套路可能还有好几套，这一系列练下来可能已经好几年了，学员还是连一点对打经验都没有而摔跤的基本功训练比较少，而且都很有针对性，学员往往一开始就会慢慢接触对练，从对敌中学习掌握距离感、节奏感等；因此就同样练习1-3年的学员来讲，摔跤要比一般武术的对打经验多得多，可说比较容易速成

Mainly with the practice mode. Traditional martial arts fist method of practice attention based, and emphasizes step by step, to first practiced pile step (horse), and muscle force, and flexible degrees, basics, then practiced basic fist, and feet action, then only practiced routine, routine may also has several sets, this series practiced down may has good years has, students also is even point rallied experience are no and wrestling of basics training compared less, and are is has targeted, students often a began on will slowly contact on practiced, from enemy in the learning master distance sense, and rhythm, ; On the same students to practice 1-3, wrestling, much more experience than the average martial arts sparring, can be very easy to crash

 

[jks9199]

Why don't some styles choose to compete or simply translate their "too lethal" stuff to legit targets and then go in and compete?

Lots of people are focusing on particular techniques. Why can't you just use technique X? It seems like it would be in the rules. Or I can't use technique Y because it's a small joint manipulation/prohibited target/whatever. The thing is... the technique isn't the art or style. The strategy and principles that underlie the technique is the art. Putting that another way -- it's not WHAT you do, it's WHY you do what you do. Look, there's just only so many ways to cause your fist to collide with someone's jaw, right? I mean, you can argue vertical fist vs horizontal or turned fist, you can talk about short/direct or looping/long... but really, you're going to come down to a pretty common technique, right. But the way you deliver it, the angles and the tactics that let you deliver it... those are a lot more variable. So, some styles aren't going to adapt to the setting of a competition. Maybe they're strategies are based on dumping the other guy on the ground, then running away. Can't do that in a cage... and it's bad sportmanship anyway. So, sure -- the individual techniques found in one style or another may well be usable in the ring -- but the whole package of that style? Maybe not. By analogy... Tires for a Corvette and a Chevette aren't all that dissimilar -- but you're not going to use them interchangeably. Or maybe a better analogy would be 9/16 inch bolt. They're all the same... but, again, they're going end up looking very different on the Corvette compared the Chevette. Or a Formula 1 car. Somehow, I don't think that Chevette's going to do well on a Formula 1 track... and the race car is going to suck on my daily commute.

 

[Tez3]

Why don't some styles choose to compete or simply translate their "too lethal" stuff to legit targets and then go in and compete?

Lots of people are focusing on particular techniques. Why can't you just use technique X? It seems like it would be in the rules. Or I can't use technique Y because it's a small joint manipulation/prohibited target/whatever. The thing is... the technique isn't the art or style. The strategy and principles that underlie the technique is the art. Putting that another way -- it's not WHAT you do, it's WHY you do what you do. Look, there's just only so many ways to cause your fist to collide with someone's jaw, right? I mean, you can argue vertical fist vs horizontal or turned fist, you can talk about short/direct or looping/long... but really, you're going to come down to a pretty common technique, right. But the way you deliver it, the angles and the tactics that let you deliver it... those are a lot more variable. So, some styles aren't going to adapt to the setting of a competition. Maybe they're strategies are based on dumping the other guy on the ground, then running away. Can't do that in a cage... and it's bad sportmanship anyway. So, sure -- the individual techniques found in one style or another may well be usable in the ring -- but the whole package of that style? Maybe not. By analogy... Tires for a Corvette and a Chevette aren't all that dissimilar -- but you're not going to use them interchangeably. Or maybe a better analogy would be 9/16 inch bolt. They're all the same... but, again, they're going end up looking very different on the Corvette compared the Chevette. Or a Formula 1 car. Somehow, I don't think that Chevette's going to do well on a Formula 1 track... and the race car is going to suck on my daily commute.

and that's why it's called Mixed Martial Arts lol and not 'Karate and TKD and wrestling and boxing and judo and BJJ and Muay Thai and......' we don't use the whole package, we use bits of this and bits of that ( I suppose we could call it Bitsa Martial Arts) we see things we think we can use often with a tweak sometimes without. No fighter uses all of any style, it was tried in the early UFCs, it had novelty but didn't stick around long for a variety of reasons.

The other thing people often don't think of is that a fighter knows who he will be fighting so will turn his training towards fighting that person so his techniques may change according to the skills and weaknesses of his opponents.

Competing in an MMA fight is usually something that an individual choses to do, often away from their own style if they have one. Their own style may not have competition, it may have points only or not be suitable for competition, there's a lot of reasons a person choses to fight, this makes MMA an individualistic sport. You have to step over a line if you like, to train and compete.

I had to smile when I read the bit "Maybe they're strategies are based on dumping the other guy on the ground, then running away. Can't do that in a cage..." I actually saw that some years ago, one fighter throw a very poor punch at his opponent, looked at him then dived out of the ring and was off! There was a silence then everyone just howled with laughter, which on reflection afterwards was probably rather cruel. Poor lad, it's really not a recommended technique to try though.

 

[K-man]

I think the point would be that an Aikidoka having a secondary or tertiary style isn't unheard of.



Whichever you would view as your primary style.



Every martial art competition has its own unique rule set. Competitive Bjj is way different than competitive Judo or Karate for example, yet both still compete in MMA competition.

Shodokan Aikido exists though, so the notion that competition goes against the philosophy of Aikido is false.

I can't understand how techniques like these;

Couldn't be used in a MMA environment.

Your logic is truly inspirational.

Shodokan, a tiny offshoot of Aikido, exists against the express wishes of the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba and as a result the rest of Aikidoka should also compete, even if they have no desire to compete. :hmm:

I might have thought the philosophy of Aikido was more this ..

Originally posted by K-man
The philosophy of Aikido is not to harm your opponent so, in that spirit, who is going to go off to learn Aikido, which takes years to learn, so they can fight in the ring? The simple answer is nobody so you are never likely to find Aikido represented in an MMA competition. If someone has the desire to fight and test themselves against others in the ring, they will go to learn a sport that is best suited to the competition they wish to compete in.

OK, how about this? Mutants exist so that makes them normal and the rest of the population should be like them.
:hmm:

Or, Idiots exist so that makes them normal and the rest of us are ... <fill this space>.

Originally posted by Hanzou
How does someone not understand a martial art? I've been doing martial arts for many years, and I know technical skill when I see it.

Perhaps doing martial arts for many years doesn't equip everyone with that skill. Perhaps training in the sandpit for many years doesn't mean you know anything about what is happening in the school across the road. Perhaps people standing too close can't see the whole picture. Lots of answers to your question. But the more important question might be why do you not understand a martial art when people have been telling you about their martial art for the past 33 pages?


Or, Bigots exist. Are they normal? Bigots just cannot see anyone else's point of view or even acknowledge that people have a right to an alternate point of view.

Now to address the three videos that you were kind enough to share. I'm not even going to repost the original because I have posted it three times already. Three times you haven't read it, you have ignored it or you haven't understood it.
(I'll post the page. You can find it if you care .. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/17...mas-have-more-difficulty-ring-octagon-22.html Post #319)
In that post I described the finishing action for a number of the Aikido techniques. These are all illegal under MMA rules as I point out one by one.

Video number one. Ikkyo, number one technique. Simple in theory but it took me over seven years to learn to do it on a non compliant partner. I know I'm a slow learner and I obviously have nowhere near your ability. Why did your video not show the whole of the basic technique?

Here's one that does ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SVdY3AwlH_w

As you will see there is a painful pin at the end but that alone is probably not enough in an adrenaline fuelled environment to cause submission. That is unless you lift the wrist and break the elbow.

So because you are having difficulty understanding I will summarise. Firstly it is an incredibly difficult technique to perfect, for me the hardest of all the Aikido techniques. It normally finishes in a painful pin sufficient in a SD situation but nowhere near what would be required in an adrenalin fuelled MMA competition. The only possible way it could be used is to break the elbow.

Video number two. Another great technique, not so difficult to learn but again difficult to apply. It is one of my 'go to' techniques in knife defence and I do teach it to my more advance Krav guys. Problem is, as it is shown in your video it will never work and again your video doesn't show the take down and finish.

Here's one that does .. How to Do Sankyo | Aikido Lessons | Howcast

Again it finishes in a painful pin that if continued will damage the elbow or shoulder so as shown could be used in MMA. In a life or death situation it will never go to the pin. In Krav i don't teach the pin. The finishing technique, not always taught in Aikido classes is the strike to the back of the neck followed by the knee to the face after the cut down. Even if you did go for the pin, in real life the knee placed beside the neck is a knee drop on to the neck.

Again so it is clear to you I will summarise. This is a practical technique but again difficult to apply against non compliance. It offers numerous opportunities to use disabling strikes right through the technique, most of which would be illegal in competition.

Video number 3. Really? A blue belt training randori as an example of what you might see in the ring? And you claim that you understand martial arts?

OK! Here's one that does show an escape .. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6l1PY_MHzvs

Obviously this is used before the choke has been fully implemented but there are other escapes as well. And yes this could be utilised in MMA as the guy demonstrating states.

 

[Hanzou]

Your logic is truly inspirational.

Shodokan, a tiny offshoot of Aikido, exists against the express wishes of the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba and as a result the rest of Aikidoka should also compete, even if they have no desire to compete.

Shodokan is still Aikido though. So yes, there is a form of Aikido that believes in competition. That contradicts your point that competition goes against Aikido's philosophy.

OK, how about this? Mutants exist so that makes them normal and the rest of the population should be like them.

Or, Idiots exist so that makes them normal and the rest of us are ... <fill this space>.

Where did I say that Shodokan Aikido is "normal"? I was simply pointing out that there is a competitive form of Aikido. So if an Aikido exponent were to emerge in MMA, he or she would more than likely emerge from that branch of Aikido.

Video number one. Ikkyo, number one technique. Simple in theory but it took me over seven years to learn to do it on a non compliant partner. I know I'm a slow learner and I obviously have nowhere near your ability. Why did your video not show the whole of the basic technique?

Here's one that does ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SVdY3AwlH_w

As you will see there is a painful pin at the end but that alone is probably not enough in an adrenaline fuelled environment to cause submission. That is unless you lift the wrist and break the elbow.

So because you are having difficulty understanding I will summarise. Firstly it is an incredibly difficult technique to perfect, for me the hardest of all the Aikido techniques. It normally finishes in a painful pin sufficient in a SD situation but nowhere near what would be required in an adrenalin fuelled MMA competition. The only possible way it could be used is to break the elbow.

Nonsense. People submit to arm locks all the time in MMA. If you're capable of breaking the elbow from that position, the person will tap instead of getting their arm broke.

Video number two. Another great technique, not so difficult to learn but again difficult to apply. It is one of my 'go to' techniques in knife defence and I do teach it to my more advance Krav guys. Problem is, as it is shown in your video it will never work and again your video doesn't show the take down and finish.

Here's one that does .. How to Do Sankyo | Aikido Lessons | Howcast

Again it finishes in a painful pin that if continued will damage the elbow or shoulder so as shown could be used in MMA. In a life or death situation it will never go to the pin. In Krav i don't teach the pin. The finishing technique, not always taught in Aikido classes is the strike to the back of the neck followed by the knee to the face after the cut down. Even if you did go for the pin, in real life the knee placed beside the neck is a knee drop on to the neck.

So you admit that that technique could be used in MMA, so what exactly are you arguing about?

And yes, I agree that these techniques seem very difficult to apply, requiring a high amount of timing and luck to pull off.

Video number 3. Really? A blue belt training randori as an example of what you might see in the ring? And you claim that you understand martial arts?

OK! Here's one that does show an escape .. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6l1PY_MHzvs

Obviously this is used before the choke has been fully implemented but there are other escapes as well. And yes this could be utilised in MMA as the guy demonstrating states.

Yeah, that was kind of my point; There's nothing demonstrated by any of your videos that would be illegal in MMA.

 

[Tames D]

This thread is about 450 posts longer than it needs to be... :lfao:

 

[K-man]

Shodokan is still Aikido though. So yes, there is a form of Aikido that believes in competition. That contradicts your point that competition goes against Aikido's philosophy.

And F1 is a particular way of driving a car. The fact that 99.999% of people don't drive that way proves that your average person could step straight into F1 without other training? I think your logic is interesting.

Where did I say that Shodokan Aikido is "normal"? I was simply pointing out that there is a competitive form of Aikido. So if an Aikido exponent were to emerge in MMA, he or she would more than likely emerge from that branch of Aikido.

Um, no. If anyone was to emerge from any form of Aikido it probably wouldn't be Shodokan. Their competition is nothing like MMA as you would know if you had any knowledge of Aikido. Perhaps you could read about the form of competition you are saying you would expect to see in MMA. Yeah right! That's going to happen ...not!

Nonsense. People submit to arm locks all the time in MMA. If you're capable of breaking the elbow from that position, the person will tap instead of getting their arm broke.

What's nonsense? You posted a video on ikkyo, not arm locks. The fact that you would make the inane comment on arm locks proves you don't even understand what you posted. For goodness sake, anyone can apply an arm bar if the situation arose. You didn't post an arm bar, you posted ikkyo, the hardest technique in Aikido to master and then you write it off as an arm lock. Why you post about arts of which you have no understanding continues to amaze. The frightening thing is that, like Sherman you seem to be posting stuff you know nothing about, yet you act as if you do.

So you admit that that technique could be used in MMA, so what exactly are you arguing about?

Hmm! Yes right. What am I arguing about? Well for starters you posted a video as an example of a technique that could be used in MMA. The way your video showed it would not work so in fact it couldn't be used in MMA. Your video only showed half the technique, so again what you posted you would never see in any fight. I posted another video demonstrating the technique taught properly and showed you what and where the finishing moves are, almost all of which are illegal in MMA and you say that the technique could be used in MMA. You have a funny way of understanding.

And yes, I agree that these techniques seem very difficult to apply, requiring a high amount of timing and luck to pull off.

None of the techniques require luck. It might come as a surprise to you but fights aren't choreographed. I teach that you work with what you are given by your opponent. To suggest that you can pull off any given move in a fight is a nonsense. The techniques are not difficult to apply in the right situation, if you know how to apply them. With your experience, I agree, none of them would work.

Yeah, that was kind of my point; There's nothing demonstrated by any of your videos that would be illegal in MMA.[/QUOTE]Obviously English is not your first language. What about the point by point analysis on the post I asked you to read. Are you really suggesting that any of those finishes are legal?

 

[K-man]

This thread is about 450 posts longer than it needs to be... :lfao:

True, but some people have more difficulty understanding than others.

 

[Hanzou]

And F1 is a particular way of driving a car. The fact that 99.999% of people don't drive that way proves that your average person could step straight into F1 without other training? I think your logic is interesting.

Which really has nothing to do with the quote you were responding to. The point is that there is competition in Aikido, thus competition does not contradict the philosophy of all forms of Aikido.

Um, no. If anyone was to emerge from any form of Aikido it probably wouldn't be Shodokan. Their competition is nothing like MMA as you would know if you had any knowledge of Aikido. Perhaps you could read about the form of competition you are saying you would expect to see in MMA. Yeah right! That's going to happen ...not!

Bjj competition is nothing like MMA either. So that point's pretty irrelevant.

What's nonsense? You posted a video on ikkyo, not arm locks. The fact that you would make the inane comment on arm locks proves you don't even understand what you posted. For goodness sake, anyone can apply an arm bar if the situation arose. You didn't post an arm bar, you posted ikkyo, the hardest technique in Aikido to master and then you write it off as an arm lock. Why you post about arts of which you have no understanding continues to amaze. The frightening thing is that, like Sherman you seem to be posting stuff you know nothing about, yet you act as if you do.

Um, I was talking about the video you posted, and your comments afterwards. Not the one I posted.

The nonsense is that you think that you need to break an elbow in order for someone in MMA to submit to an armlock or a pin. Meanwhile, people submit to armlocks all the time in MMA without needing to snap elbows at all.

Like I said, nonsense.

Hmm! Yes right. What am I arguing about? Well for starters you posted a video as an example of a technique that could be used in MMA. The way your video showed it would not work so in fact it couldn't be used in MMA. Your video only showed half the technique, so again what you posted you would never see in any fight. I posted another video demonstrating the technique taught properly and showed you what and where the finishing moves are, almost all of which are illegal in MMA and you say that the technique could be used in MMA. You have a funny way of understanding.

I'm pretty sure I said that the moves shown in the vids I posted would work in MMA as well. The fact that you feel that those vids were lacking in technique and applicability is a different issue entirely. The point is that we're both agreeing that the technique being shown can work in a MMA environment. So again, what exactly are you arguing about?

None of the techniques require luck. It might come as a surprise to you but fights aren't choreographed. I teach that you work with what you are given by your opponent. To suggest that you can pull off any given move in a fight is a nonsense. The techniques are not difficult to apply in the right situation, if you know how to apply them. With your experience, I agree, none of them would work.

The day I see those techniques applied on someone who is legitimately trying to beat down an Aikidoka, I'll agree with you.

Obviously English is not your first language.

Is that really necessary?

What about the point by point analysis on the post I asked you to read. Are you really suggesting that any of those finishes are legal?

Again, the finishes shown in the videos are perfectly legal. The stuff you're talking about wasn't shown in either the videos I showed, or you showed.

 

[K-man]

videos [/B]are perfectly legal. The stuff you're talking about wasn't shown in either the videos I showed, or you showed.

No I'm about of here. You won't accept or even acknowledge any other point of view. You don't state your experience and you post crap. I believe you are just a troll.
:s406:

 

[jks9199]

Wow, folks... Maybe it's just time to simply agree to disagree. There's a whole lotta heat here, and since I'm involved and not moderating the thread, maybe folks can take this as a clue before someone has to take official action.

 

[Tez3]

Saying a technique will work in MMA means nothing at all. Apart from the legalities of it, there's also the fact of whether a fighter can master the technique or not. Is it worth a fighter's training time to learn a technique? Can she/he use it easily? Can it be used without your opponent being specifically in one position, can it be used from different positions? How instinctive is it, are there variations I can do quickly.....these are things we think about when looking at techniques, not what style they come from or whether the stylists are allowed to fight or don't have competitions. Look at the videos and ask yourself what will I gain in a fight if I can do these techniques? Does it work for ME? They are the only questions that matters.

TMA's don't have difficulties in MMA, they are MMA.

 

[RTKDCMB]

LOL. You're right. Kman's argument was circular. My mistake. It remains a fallacious argument. I'm getting the impression, however, that you and others think it was MY reasoning. It was not.

I wasn't implying or asserting anything, merely correcting the use of terms.

 

[Cirdan]

TMA's don't have difficulties in MMA, they are MMA.

That about sums it up, not only this thread but several others.

 

[Hanzou]

That about sums it up, not only this thread but several others.

Actually it doesn't, because it is a verifiablly false statement.

 

[Tez3]

Actually it doesn't, because it is a verifiablly false statement.

If you say so. I think we are all tired of the argument for this year, last year's TMA V MMA wasn't too bad, the year before was a shocker, 2005s was boring. Perhaps next years will be different, no I'm joking it won't. :toilclaw: