Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Steve]

Can you give me some examples of a fights in MMA with a highly trained boxer taking on a highly trained wrestler. I would have thought that was totally against the whole concept of mixed martial art. Unless they have cross trained I doubt there will be many of either persuasion in MMA let alone fighting each other.

Will Elite Wrestling Always Beat Elite Boxing in MMA? | Bleacher Report

Now Randy Couture would be the main guy I can think of as a wrestler but he also had boxing skills. He fought and beat James Toney in a classic mismatch. That fight was possibly one of the main reasons you won't have 'one trick ponies' in MMA.

In the main a good wrestler will probably outperform a good boxer but still doesn't invalidate my statement. There are very few highly trained wrestlers taking on highly trained boxers anywhere.

Jens Pulver was a professional boxer with a record of 4-0. He was, for a time, widely regarded as one of the best boxers in MMA. He fought Uriah Faber, regarded as the best wrestler in the history of University of California Davis. I'm not sure if he ever made All American, but he is an exemplary wrestler.

Marcus Davis is a professional boxer with a record of 17-2-1 as a pro. He has fought many very well trained wrestlers, but the match that comes to mind is against Melvin Guillard.

Stephen Bonnar was a gold gloves boxer. Vitor Belfort is a highly trained boxer with at least one or two pro wins. Little Nog was the Amateur heavyweight champion of Brazil. Holly Holms is a former champ and was 33-2-3 as a pro boxer, and was also a successful kickboxer. ... there are many, many guys who compete in MMA who are "highly trained" boxers with professional records. There are so many top notch wrestlers in the UFC, as well.

I must not be understanding you. Do you think MMAists are not "highly trained" in the various, discrete disciplines?

 

[K-man]

Jens Pulver was a professional boxer with a record of 4-0. He was, for a time, widely regarded as one of the best boxers in MMA. He fought Uriah Faber, regarded as the best wrestler in the history of University of California Davis. I'm not sure if he ever made All American, but he is an exemplary wrestler.

Marcus Davis is a professional boxer with a record of 17-2-1 as a pro. He has fought many very well trained wrestlers, but the match that comes to mind is against Melvin Guillard.

Stephen Bonnar was a gold gloves boxer. Vitor Belfort is a highly trained boxer with at least one or two pro wins. Little Nog was the Amateur heavyweight champion of Brazil. Holly Holms is a former champ and was 33-2-3 as a pro boxer, and was also a successful kickboxer. ... there are many, many guys who compete in MMA who are "highly trained" boxers with professional records. There are so many top notch wrestlers in the UFC, as well.

Jens Pulver, specialist boxer? No, he started out as a wrestler.
Lil' Evil: The Jens Pulver Story | Bleacher Report

Uriah Faber, specialist wrestler? No, he is listed under BJJ, along with boxing kickboxing and wrestling.
Urijah Faber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marcus Davis, boxer? Yes. But took up grappling before entering MMA.
Marcus Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Melvin Guillard, wrestler? Sure, in college but actually ended up boxing professionally before turning to MMA. Also a brown belt in Judo.
Melvin Guillard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stephen Bonnar, boxer? Well he is a BB in BJJ and TKD also lists Muay Thai and Wrestling.
Stephan Bonnar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vitor Belfort, boxer? Well he had one professional fight in 2006. He has BBs in BJJ and Judo and a blue belt in Shotokan.
Vitor Belfort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Little Nog? Amateur boxer and 3rd degree black belt in BJJ.
Antônio Rogério Nogueira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Holly Holm? Started out boxing but lists boxing, kickboxing, Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling as her skills.
Holly Holm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The two things they have in common is that they are all listed as Mixed Martial Artists and they all train multiple disciplines.

I must not be understanding you. Do you think MMAists are not "highly trained" in the various, discrete disciplines?

I believe champion MMAs are highly trained in all aspects of the areas in which they fight. Understandably they train all areas to be competitive.

If you go back through the thread you will find the inane suggestion that even though every other MMA fighter trains all aspects of MMA fighting that an Aikido guy without any additional training should be able to step into the ring with them. The same BS was put up for WC also. Once the Aikidoka takes additional training to compete then that is evidence that Aikido is useless as a martial art.

 

[Steve]

for the love of Pete, k-man. You asked for "highly trained" boxers vs "highly trained" wrestlers. I answered your question. I provided several examples of "highly trained" boxers vs "highly trained' wrestlers.

Grow up. Remove the chip from your shoulder, stop acting like a bloody victim and then maybe we can have a decent conversation. You're instigating trouble, and then complaining about it when you start it. You ask leading questions like the one above, and then when answered in good faith, you spend good time that you'll never get back saying what boils down to, "Aha! Gotcha!" Well, great. It's dishonest. And it's a disingenuous way to make yourself look like the victim when in reality you're actively picking a fight.

Tell you what. This may come as a shock, but I'm not interested in it. I like honest discussions. This isn't that. Let me know when you are willing to take a breath, presume some good will, give other people the benefit of the doubt, speak plainly and say what you mean. When you can do those things, maybe you'll find that you have much more in common with everyone in this thread than otherwise.

 

[Hanzou]

If you go back through the thread you will find the inane suggestion that even though every other MMA fighter trains all aspects of MMA fighting that an Aikido guy without any additional training should be able to step into the ring with them. The same BS was put up for WC also. Once the Aikidoka takes additional training to compete then that is evidence that Aikido is useless as a martial art.

Who said that Aikido was useless? I was merely floating the theory that Aikido's (and Wing Chun's) training methods may make it less attractive for MMA exponents.

If you notice, all the main styles of MMA have very similar training methods. Aikido and Wing Chun do not share those methods.

 

[K-man]

for the love of Pete, k-man. You asked for "highly trained" boxers vs "highly trained" wrestlers. I answered your question. I provided several examples of "highly trained" boxers vs "highly trained' wrestlers.

Grow up. Remove the chip from your shoulder, stop acting like a bloody victim and then maybe we can have a decent conversation. You're instigating trouble, and then complaining about it when you start it. You ask leading questions like the one above, and then when answered in good faith, you spend good time that you'll never get back saying what boils down to, "Aha! Gotcha!" Well, great. It's dishonest. And it's a disingenuous way to make yourself look like the victim when in reality you're actively picking a fight.

Tell you what. This may come as a shock, but I'm not interested in it. I like honest discussions. This isn't that. Let me know when you are willing to take a breath, presume some good will, give other people the benefit of the doubt, speak plainly and say what you mean. When you can do those things, maybe you'll find that you have much more in common with everyone in this thread than otherwise.

You see I would say you took my request out of context yet again. If you looked at the point I am trying to make instead of posting stuff that is totally irrelevant you might not feel so frustrated. I am purely speaking against the absurd proposition that a traditional martial artist should be able to just enter an MMA championship with no other training. I picked wrestling and boxing as an example because they are both competition sports that potentially could compete one on one. I even posted an example of when it actually happened. I thought there may have been other instances that you knew of, hence a polite request, not a demand like you will see time after time in other posts.

As to whether your examples were highly trained boxers vs highly trained wrestlers. No, not one example. Just highly trained MMA vs highly trained MMA. Not one was fighting as a wrestler and not one was fighting as a boxer. Yet an Aikido practitioner is expected to fight as an Aikidoka.

Here was my question.

Originally posted by K-man
Can you give me some examples of a fights in MMA with a highly trained boxer taking on a highly trained wrestler. I would have thought that was totally against the whole concept of mixed martial art. Unless they have cross trained I doubt there will be many of either persuasion in MMA let alone fighting each other.

Every single one you listed has cross trained which is the exact point I have been making.

Is that clear enough?

 

[drop bear]

Jens Pulver, specialist boxer? No, he started out as a wrestler.
Lil' Evil: The Jens Pulver Story | Bleacher Report

Uriah Faber, specialist wrestler? No, he is listed under BJJ, along with boxing kickboxing and wrestling.
Urijah Faber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marcus Davis, boxer? Yes. But took up grappling before entering MMA.
Marcus Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Melvin Guillard, wrestler? Sure, in college but actually ended up boxing professionally before turning to MMA. Also a brown belt in Judo.
Melvin Guillard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stephen Bonnar, boxer? Well he is a BB in BJJ and TKD also lists Muay Thai and Wrestling.
Stephan Bonnar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vitor Belfort, boxer? Well he had one professional fight in 2006. He has BBs in BJJ and Judo and a blue belt in Shotokan.
Vitor Belfort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Little Nog? Amateur boxer and 3rd degree black belt in BJJ.
Antônio Rogério Nogueira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Holly Holm? Started out boxing but lists boxing, kickboxing, Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling as her skills.
Holly Holm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The two things they have in common is that they are all listed as Mixed Martial Artists and they all train multiple disciplines.

I believe champion MMAs are highly trained in all aspects of the areas in which they fight. Understandably they train all areas to be competitive.

If you go back through the thread you will find the inane suggestion that even though every other MMA fighter trains all aspects of MMA fighting that an Aikido guy without any additional training should be able to step into the ring with them. The same BS was put up for WC also. Once the Aikidoka takes additional training to compete then that is evidence that Aikido is useless as a martial art.

The areas in which they fight would be pretty non specific though. So striking grappling and groundwork. Does not have to mean boxing wrestling and jits.

It could be chun and akido.

 

[K-man]

Who said that Aikido was useless? I was merely floating the theory that Aikido's (and Wing Chun's) training methods may make it less attractive for MMA exponents.

If you notice, all the main styles of MMA have very similar training methods. Aikido and Wing Chun do not share those methods.

And I would agree 100% with the proposition that Aikido and WC training methods make them less attractive for MMA exponents. I would go even further and say that in particular Aikido is totally unsuited to MMA. But that is not saying that Aikido is not a art that can be used in self defence.

As to whether someone said Aikido was useless, there's 30 pages to trawl through to find that.

 

[Hanzou]

And I would agree 100% with the proposition that Aikido and WC training methods make them less attractive for MMA exponents. I would go even further and say that in particular Aikido is totally unsuited to MMA. But that is not saying that Aikido is not a art that can be used in self defence.

Well then comes the next question; What makes Aikido "totally unsuited" to MMA?

 

[jezr74]

I'd have to admit the vibe of this thread was a TMA bashing to me. And it came across that way very early on.

That's just my two cents.

 

[K-man]

The areas in which they fight would be pretty non specific though. So striking grappling and groundwork. Does not have to mean boxing wrestling and jits.

It could be chun and akido.

Yes but they would not be a good fit. Obviously the first 'go to' would be BJJ for both to provide the ground game. For an Aikidoka, I would pick Muay Thai as well. There are not a lot of usable techniques in Aikido that you would use in the ring, pretty much as Bas said in an earlier post. I don't know enough of WC to suggest another component for them. I'll leave that up to FC. But the whole truth is, once you have done all the cross training required you are now a Mixed Martial Artist, not an Aikidoka or a Chunner.

Starting from scratch, your boxing, wrestling and jits gives you all the basics. For me it would be BJJ and Muay Thai because that gives you the kicks as well. But here we come back to the same answer. These are all combinations of styles.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Well then comes the next question; What makes Aikido "totally unsuited" to MMA?

For a start, in these times there is not any one style alone that is suited to MMA competition so why would Aikido be any different? Then you look at the philosophy of Aikido and it hardly fits with the philosophy of MMA. You then look at the techniques employed in Aikido and what you don't normally see on video, or in demonstrations where people are throwing themselves spectacularly across the floor, are the finishing moves to the techniques of which a dozen or so, which is almost all of them, fall outside the rules of MMA. Please don't ask me to repost as I think they have been posted three times already.

Why can't you just accept the fact that you aren't going to find Aikido practitioners in the MMA ring anytime soon.

 

[Hanzou]

For a start, in these times there is not any one style alone that is suited to MMA competition so why would Aikido be any different?

Not a problem. Most Aikido practitioners, and martial artists in general already take more than one style. Steven Segal for example also has a belt in karate.

Then you look at the philosophy of Aikido and it hardly fits with the philosophy of MMA.

There are competitive styles of Aikido. Shodokan Aikido immediately springs to mind.

You then look at the techniques employed in Aikido and what you don't normally see on video, or in demonstrations where people are throwing themselves spectacularly across the floor, are the finishing moves to the techniques of which a dozen or so, which is almost all of them, fall outside the rules of MMA. Please don't ask me to repost as I think they have been posted three times already.

The majority of Aikido techniques I've seen are perfectly legal in MMA.

Why can't you just accept the fact that you aren't going to find Aikido practitioners in the MMA ring anytime soon.

Because it doesn't make sense.

 

[K-man]

Not a problem. Most Aikido practitioners, and martial artists in general already take more than one style. Steven Segal for example also has a belt in karate.

I think you would need evidence to back that claim. Certainly many martial artists do cross train, but definitely not most. I'm not sure that is at all common for people training Aikido as their primary art. None of our aikido guys cross train although we do have a few karate guys like me cross training in Aikido. I went to Aikido to improve my Karate skills but I also have a Systema and Krav background. Another friend training Aikido with me has a BJJ blackbelt plus extensive Karate and MMA experience but we are the exceptions. I would suggest most Aikido practitioners have only the one style and are not in the least bit interested in cross training. I haven't a single one from our Aikido school in my classes and we train in the same dojo.

But again, if I was fighting it the ring what would my style be? Aikido, Karate, Krav or Systema? Or would it just be MMA?

There are competitive styles of Aikido. Shodokan Aikido immediately springs to mind.

I did already address that in an earlier post, and the competition there is nothing like any normal form of Martial Art competition. And, as I pointed out earlier, Ueshiba was against Tomiki introducing competition. Shodokan or Tomiki Aikido is only a tiny part of Aikido.

The majority of Aikido techniques I've seen are perfectly legal in MMA.

The techniques you see trained are all legal but if you read my posts you will see that is not what I was talking about. The techniques by themselves would be almost totally useless in the MMA context as Bas said in the video you posted. What you don't want to understand is that behind every technique is a finishing move if you wanted to escalate the level of violence. Possibly many schools don't train those. I don't know because I only train under one teacher. But we do train the finishes, or rather we make sure that we are in a position to finish if required. Those were the techniques I have posted three times. If you can't understand what I have written I would suggest your are being deliberately obtuse.

Because it doesn't make sense.

To you.

 

[drop bear]

Yes but they would not be a good fit. Obviously the first 'go to' would be BJJ for both to provide the ground game. For an Aikidoka, I would pick Muay Thai as well. There are not a lot of usable techniques in Aikido that you would use in the ring, pretty much as Bas said in an earlier post. I don't know enough of WC to suggest another component for them. I'll leave that up to FC. But the whole truth is, once you have done all the cross training required you are now a Mixed Martial Artist, not an Aikidoka or a Chunner.

Starting from scratch, your boxing, wrestling and jits gives you all the basics. For me it would be BJJ and Muay Thai because that gives you the kicks as well. But here we come back to the same answer. These are all combinations of styles.
:asian:

Except that mmaers cross train in tma,s. They grade as high as any of the people who do not train mma. They are every bit the sub style.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you would need evidence to back that claim. Certainly many martial artists do cross train, but definitely not most. I'm not sure that is at all common for people training Aikido as their primary art. None of our aikido guys cross train although we do have a few karate guys like me cross training in Aikido. I went to Aikido to improve my Karate skills but I also have a Systema and Krav background. Another friend training Aikido with me has a BJJ blackbelt plus extensive Karate and MMA experience but we are the exceptions. I would suggest most Aikido practitioners have only the one style and are not in the least bit interested in cross training. I haven't a single one from our Aikido school in my classes and we train in the same dojo.

I think the point would be that an Aikidoka having a secondary or tertiary style isn't unheard of.

But again, if I was fighting it the ring what would my style be? Aikido, Karate, Krav or Systema? Or would it just be MMA?

Whichever you would view as your primary style.

I did already address that in an earlier post, and the competition there is nothing like any normal form of Martial Art competition. And, as I pointed out earlier, Ueshiba was against Tomiki introducing competition. Shodokan or Tomiki Aikido is only a tiny part of Aikido.

Every martial art competition has its own unique rule set. Competitive Bjj is way different than competitive Judo or Karate for example, yet both still compete in MMA competition.

Shodokan Aikido exists though, so the notion that competition goes against the philosophy of Aikido is false.

The techniques you see trained are all legal but if you read my posts you will see that is not what I was talking about. The techniques by themselves would be almost totally useless in the MMA context as Bas said in the video you posted. What you don't want to understand is that behind every technique is a finishing move if you wanted to escalate the level of violence. Possibly many schools don't train those. I don't know because I only train under one teacher. But we do train the finishes, or rather we make sure that we are in a position to finish if required. Those were the techniques I have posted three times. If you can't understand what I have written I would suggest your are being deliberately obtuse.

I can't understand how techniques like these;

Couldn't be used in a MMA environment.

 

[Tez3]

I can't understand how techniques like these;

Couldn't be used in a MMA environment.

I'm sure that while those techniques are Aikido and are taught by Aiki instructors but I have also done them in Wado Ryu which also contains a fair amount of Juijutsu.

One day, perhaps in some martial arts heaven people will accept MMA as being MMA and not keep looking to find styles that are good in MMA and calling other styles rubbish for it, the truth is, whether people like it or not there are techniques in just about every martial art that can be copied, used, adapted, whatever for use in MMA. Even weapons styles can because you can look at timing, movement, foot placement etc as being useful depending on your size, weight and preferences. Style bashing is boring apart from upsetting perfectly good martial artists.
People gravitate towards martial styles they can do firstly, I couldn't do Capoeira for toffee, that they can afford, that they enjoy training in. They may like competition, they may not, I'm sure if someone doing Aikido wanted to compete in MMA they would, I'm sure that if people doing Aikido wanted to do anything in any other style they would, why wouldn't they. If they don't why worry.
MMA must be the only style that other stylists feel they can comment on and think they sound knowledgeable LOL. would non TKDists discuss over so many pages TKD? or would non weapons people discuss weapons so intently and argue so much about it, I think not. :argue:

MMA is also entertainment so I suppose people like to have a chunter about it. England's football team make a pig's ear out their time in the World Cup recently and every armchair critic let forth an almighty rant of what they should do, should have done and most importantly what they would have done if they had been England's manager. Same with MMA, because it's a mix up of styles anyone who has a style feels they know what works in MMA, more karate, more TKD etc, more wrestling they shout.
The thing about MMA is that it's not one size fits all, each fighter, each person who trains will make the way they fight and what techniques they use personal to them, there's really good techniques that work for the big guys that I can't use, I'm too short, some I can use and they can't. could they techniques above be used, probably if someone wanted to, if it 'fitted' them. Perhaps not, quite honestly you can't say for sure yes or no, it will depend on the person using them. An MMA fighter might look at the videos and think they could give it a go or they may think it doesn't suit them perhaps they feel clumsy doing it or too slow, perhaps another would look at it and think wow if I just adapted that a bit I can do that. It's the fighter more than the technique that should be taken into account. Posting up techniques and saying they would or wouldn't work is a bit pointless, sorry if you don't agree. I've seen a terrific flying triangle choke that 'works for MMA' but it won't work for me or anyone above lightweight, I've seen techniques people say won't work in the cage being used successfully. It's individual which is something many of us enjoy. Match techniques to the fighter, don't just say this will work or that won't.
Okay the sun is shining I'm off to sit in my garden doing nothing as I'm now happily retired from work. Have fun peoples.

 

[Steve]

You see I would say you took my request out of context yet again. If you looked at the point I am trying to make instead of posting stuff that is totally irrelevant you might not feel so frustrated. I am purely speaking against the absurd proposition that a traditional martial artist should be able to just enter an MMA championship with no other training. I picked wrestling and boxing as an example because they are both competition sports that potentially could compete one on one. I even posted an example of when it actually happened. I thought there may have been other instances that you knew of, hence a polite request, not a demand like you will see time after time in other posts.

As to whether your examples were highly trained boxers vs highly trained wrestlers. No, not one example. Just highly trained MMA vs highly trained MMA. Not one was fighting as a wrestler and not one was fighting as a boxer. Yet an Aikido practitioner is expected to fight as an Aikidoka.

Here was my question.

Every single one you listed has cross trained which is the exact point I have been making.

Is that clear enough?

Essentially, you accept no ownership? It's all me. I took you out of context. And I posted stuff that is irrelevant to your point , in spite of being a very direct answer to what was a very direct question. You played no part in being misunderstood. You had nothing to do with it. Just an innocent bystander. Come on.

If your point was that every professional mmaist cross trains, we'll no ****. That's not a point. I'd say that's a given. That's a premise that I would guess every single person here takes for granted.

I typically enjoy conversations like this. I like the subject. I learn something most times. But this pervasive victim hood is a killer for me. This constant framing of everything as though anything that isn't a compliment is an insult.

You guys can have it. I don't have the patience for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tez3]

I was looking for videos of flying triangles but came across this, posting it for a number of reasons mostly because if you look up Leigh he has videos of him doing techniques you wouldn't think would work but also because this video taken at one of our fight nights brings back memories. Leigh in his budgie smugglers and most of Gav Bradley his opponent who sadly died in a kayaking accident earlier this year. The walk in with the Butlins ( good fighters themselves, twins are MMA younger brother Andy a boxer) is giggle worthy, the fight good natured, Leigh stood in when we were left without an opponent. You can say it's not up to 'UFC' standard but everyone enjoyed it, had a good time and basically that's what it's about. ( we did go on to have Bisping make his pro debut on the show though lol) RIP Gav.
Leigh Remedios vs Gavin Bradley - YouTube

 

[Hanzou]

I'm sure that while those techniques are Aikido and are taught by Aiki instructors but I have also done them in Wado Ryu which also contains a fair amount of Juijutsu.

One day, perhaps in some martial arts heaven people will accept MMA as being MMA and not keep looking to find styles that are good in MMA and calling other styles rubbish for it, the truth is, whether people like it or not there are techniques in just about every martial art that can be copied, used, adapted, whatever for use in MMA. Even weapons styles can because you can look at timing, movement, foot placement etc as being useful depending on your size, weight and preferences. Style bashing is boring apart from upsetting perfectly good martial artists.

Where's the style bashing? No one is calling other styles rubbish for not participating in MMA. This thread began because a poster stated that Bjj and other grappling arts had an advantage in the MMA format. To date, no one has come up with a logical reasoning why that is. Ironically, Aikido is also a grappling art, yet for some reason, the rules of MMA don't give that style an advantage, according to some, it actually gives it a disadvantage.

There are some interesting statements being made, and I would simply like to hear some logical reasoning behind those statements.

 

[Tez3]

Where's the style bashing? No one is calling other styles rubbish for not participating in MMA. This thread began because a poster stated that Bjj and other grappling arts had an advantage in the MMA format. To date, no one has come up with a logical reasoning why that is. Ironically, Aikido is also a grappling art, yet for some reason, the rules of MMA don't give that style an advantage, according to some, it actually gives it a disadvantage.

There are some interesting statements being made, and I would simply like to hear some logical reasoning behind those statements.

Oi, the man wants logic. Okay once more for the man at the back. It's about which techniques work for which fighter, it's not the style, it's not that one is better than another it's about what the individual fighter finds good to use. It's not 'Aikido works/doesn't work' or 'BJJ is/isn't' best it's about what a fighter finds best to use. Techniques are tools a fighter uses, he will take the best tools for him from whatever he finds. It really is that simple. It's not the style that is best or not workable, it's all about the fighter.