Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Come on guy's and gal's. Not every system is designed to step into a cage. Aikido is a receiving system meaning that it counter attacks after an attack happens. (ie. grab, strike) In mma there is of course some counter fighting but really almost every mma athlete goes into the cage with offensive striking and offensive minded takedowns. Nobody is grabbing them to start and the mind set is go and knockout the other guy and or submit him. Aikido is designed to defend against someone trying to grab, strike, etc. It is a system that I title a "receiving" system meaning they are waiting on their attacker and then defend against the attack. It is designed for some thing else other than fighting in a cage and it has been used successfully in this area.


We are debating, arguing some thing that we are not going to come to a conclusion on. Why, because not every TMA was designed with a one on one mutual fight in mind. Some were designed for battlefield combat, self-defense, some have that sporting aspect, etc. MMA is designed exactly for the cage and utilizes techniques drawn from a wide range of TMA systems. It is good in the cage because well that is what it is designed for. Both can work for what they are designed for. TMA's have been very successful for self-defense and personal protection. Some have done well in the cage as well. MMA is an exceptional system for one on one mutual combat and it absolutely has cross over to be utilized for personal protection on the street.

I am sure we will continue the never ending debate here!

 

[Steve]

Brian, you make some very good points. I, for one, am enjoying the conversation. I don't expect to come to any conclusions, but as long as everyone is generally polite and respectful, I think the back and forth is enjoyable.

And, by the way, I'm right and you are wrong... so, there's that.

 

[Tames D]

Well she may be unusual for America but certainly not anywhere else.

Here we go again... America vs the world. I never thought she is unusual, and I'm in America.

 

[Tez3]

Here we go again... America vs the world. I never thought she is unusual, and I'm in America.

Really? I put up an explanation, a very good one I thought and not even mine, on the regional differences between countries, nothing to do with country v country. I don't suppose you do find it unusual but then the comment wasn't aimed at you but at someone who did and said that she was unique. Thank you however for proving my point that she's not unusual.

 

[Hanzou]

Really? I put up an explanation, a very good one I thought and not even mine, on the regional differences between countries, nothing to do with country v country. I don't suppose you do find it unusual but then the comment wasn't aimed at you but at someone who did and said that she was unique. Thank you however for proving my point that she's not unusual.

Yet you yourself said that Judo isn't prevalent in America, so American MMA fighters are going to be coming from Wrestling backgrounds instead of Judo backgrounds like Rousey.

So obviously Rousey is unique in American MMA. Why? Because her base style is different than the base style of American MMA fighters.

 

[mook jong man]

 

[K-man]

Kman, you've got some non sequitors going on. I think to be more clear, we need to distinguish between pain and injury. From what I've seen, aikido training involves a certain amount of pain. Pain is also a part of many BJJ competitions. But while injuries can occur in any competition, they are relatively rare.

The second non sequitor is to conclude that no aikidoka is interested in competition because there are no aikidoka competing.

LOL. You're right. Kman's argument was circular. My mistake. It remains a fallacious argument. I'm getting the impression, however, that you and others think it was MY reasoning. It was not.

My argument was that a large part of martial Aikido lies out side the rules of MMA competition. I have posted several times purely to stop one part of the whole of that being quoted out of context. That is hardly circular and was posted multiple times because of the trolling that is occurring.

fal·la·cy (fl-s)
n. pl. fal·la·cies
1. A false notion.
2. A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
3. Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.
4. The quality of being deceptive.
[Alteration of Middle English fallace, from Old French, from Latin fallcia, deceit, from fallx, fallc-, deceitful, from fallere, to deceive.]

So what is the fallacy?

Was it where you introduced pain and injury for the first time in a way that is demonstrably false (while injuries can occur in any competition, they are relatively rare)?

Or was it where I said that if people wanted to compete they were free to do so but the fact is they choose not to?

Now as to the use of English or more precisely Latin translating into English. Non sequitur means 'it does not follow'. Your first point has nothing to do with anything I said. Certainly it didn't follow in the context of the discussion, but that is your arguement, not mine.

The second part is patently obvious. If you can show me Aikido guys crying in the corner because they can't compete in a pissing competition I'll agree with you.

Anyway let's get back to the style bashing. We've had WC, we've done Aikido, we've had a go at Boztepe, we've accused Seagal of raping his wife, now we're on to busting Ueshiba as a fraud, and all in the context of why TMAs have more difficulty in the ring. Good work! I think I'll pop over to Bullshido to get away from the crap.

 

[Steve]

It was the circular argument. Don't get so defensive. Wall of text is just camo.

Edit: Just to add a little more, the hurt/injury thing was to distinguish between the two. Someone (and if it comes down to it, I'll go back and look who it was) said something about aikidoka not wanting to hurt anyone. I was pointing out that Aikido training looks like it hurts plenty.

And, serious injury, while possible, is actually pretty unlikely in most competitions, which I believe is still largely true in the universe of martial arts competitions, including MMA.

Someone's circular argument (I thought it was you, but I could go back and look) was that the reason we don't see aikido represented in competition is because no aikidoka would compete.

Whenever anyone starts quoting the dictionary, it's a sure sign they're taking things personally.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tez3]

Yet you yourself said that Judo isn't prevalent in America, so American MMA fighters are going to be coming from Wrestling backgrounds instead of Judo backgrounds like Rousey.

So obviously Rousey is unique in American MMA. Why? Because her base style is different than the base style of American MMA fighters.

Your statements are always 'all' or 'nothing'. Most American MMA fighters come from a wrestling background however some come from a BJJ one as well as a Judo one. However fighters with a base of Judo aren't unknown in the UFC, Werdum, Anderson Silva, Okami, Lombard, Maia, Mizugaku, Jussier da Silva to name a few all have more than a good grounding in Judo. Rousey isn't unusual at all.

 

[Steve]

Your statements are always 'all' or 'nothing'. Most American MMA fighters come from a wrestling background however some come from a BJJ one as well as a Judo one. However fighters with a base of Judo aren't unknown in the UFC, Werdum, Anderson Silva, Okami, Lombard, Maia, Mizugaku, Jussier da Silva to name a few all have more than a good grounding in Judo. Rousey isn't unusual at all.

While we've had many, and it's true that judo is well represented, can't you see that Rousey is currently the judoka who has most successfully displayed judo in the UFC?

Why are we bickering about this? It's such a nonsense, trivial point.

Up to this point, the person who had the best Judo that I can remember in the UFC was Karo Parisyan.

 

[Hanzou]

Your statements are always 'all' or 'nothing'. Most American MMA fighters come from a wrestling background however some come from a BJJ one as well as a Judo one. However fighters with a base of Judo aren't unknown in the UFC, Werdum, Anderson Silva, Okami, Lombard, Maia, Mizugaku, Jussier da Silva to name a few all have more than a good grounding in Judo. Rousey isn't unusual at all.

Please show us a female fighter in the UFC that fights like Ronda Rousey (i.e. utilizing clear Judo throws and takedowns).

 

[K-man]

It was the circular argument. Don't get so defensive. Wall of text is just camo.

Edit: Just to add a little more, the hurt/injury thing was to distinguish between the two. Someone (and if it comes down to it, I'll go back and look who it was) said something about aikidoka not wanting to hurt anyone. I was pointing out that Aikido training looks like it hurts plenty.

And, serious injury, while possible, is actually pretty unlikely in most competitions, which I believe is still largely true in the universe of martial arts competitions, including MMA.

Someone's circular argument (I thought it was you, but I could go back and look) was that the reason we don't see aikido represented in competition is because no aikidoka would compete.

Whenever anyone starts quoting the dictionary, it's a sure sign they're taking things personally.

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Firstly Aikido with its submissions does hurt. If I said that the objective in Aikido was not to hurt your opponent then I apologise, what I meant was in the sense not to injure an opponent. As to injury in MMA competition. I will sit that one out. The chance of cumulative brain damage is now under the microscope and joint damage is a real issue.

My arguement was, and still is, that the reason that you don't see Aikido people in competition is because they don't want to compete. You have misquoted my statement to make it circular.

As to taking it personally. Yes, I'm pissed off at the misquoting and style bashing that has continued unchecked throughout this thread.

 

[Steve]

Firstly Aikido with its submissions does hurt. If I said that the objective in Aikido was not to hurt your opponent then I apologise, what I meant was in the sense not to injure an opponent. As to injury in MMA competition. I will sit that one out. The chance of cumulative brain damage is now under the microscope and joint damage is a real issue.

My arguement was, and still is, that the reason that you don't see Aikido people in competition is because they don't want to compete. You have misquoted my statement to make it circular.

As to taking it personally. Yes, I'm pissed off at the misquoting and style bashing that has continued unchecked throughout this thread.

I think that you're presuming ill intent. speaking for myself, if I'm misquoting anyone, it's because the thread moves so fast that I can't keep up. I'm not a genius and I'm likely to make mistakes.

For example, if you say that there have never been any aikidoka competing in MMA because no one who trains aikido is interested in competition, that raises several red flags for me. It may not be a circular argument, but it sure does seem circular to me, even now, after you've cleared it up.

 

[K-man]

Come on guy's and gal's. Not every system is designed to step into a cage. Aikido is a receiving system meaning that it counter attacks after an attack happens. (ie. grab, strike) In mma there is of course some counter fighting but really almost every mma athlete goes into the cage with offensive striking and offensive minded takedowns. Nobody is grabbing them to start and the mind set is go and knockout the other guy and or submit him. Aikido is designed to defend against someone trying to grab, strike, etc. It is a system that I title a "receiving" system meaning they are waiting on their attacker and then defend against the attack. It is designed for some thing else other than fighting in a cage and it has been used successfully in this area.

Could I suggest this is not entirely accurate. The receiving in Aikido is probably the most misunderstood aspect of the training. Receiving as in taking ukemi is a lesson in blending, something that I am not very good at for the obvious reason that I'm too old to throw myself around. Although it might be possible to escape injury by throwing yourself like you see in good ukemi, it is unlikely to occur in a real situation. The technique has to be slowed for it to happen. But the lesson in receiving is to counter the tendency to resist. Resistance makes everything a battle of strength while Aikido teaches us to circle around strength. This also enables reversals and the ability to utilise other offensive opportunities.

In the main Aikido does wait for an attack but again that is not necessary. We sometimes use what I would call 'predictive response', the same as you see in karate bunkai. For example, entering with a back fist strike to the head reflexively will normally bring up the arm to protect or deflect. This gives us the wrist. That might be utilised in a situation where preemptive action is an option.

Now another Aikido myth is that it is designed to work against grabs. Yes it might work against grabs but in real life that is an unlikely situation. In a street fight no one is going to grab you by the wrist. The rationale for working from grabs is that you learn to ignore being held or indeed being impeded. It is an incredibly clever training methodology. Unless people have trained in Aikido they won't understand what I am getting at, but in being held I am learning to ignore the distraction so I can still enter. Another thing that causes ignorant comment is the downward knife hand strike that everyone loves to rubbish. It does annoy me when I see it performed in a sloppy way but there is a reason for its use. With a punch you can move aside and a committed punch will miss. It cannot track you so to speak. A downward knife hand can track you if you move aside before you should. Therefore you are learning to take your partner's centre while maintaining your own and taking them off the line.

And you are 100% right when you say it is not designed for cage fighting.

We are debating, arguing some thing that we are not going to come to a conclusion on. Why, because not every TMA was designed with a one on one mutual fight in mind. Some were designed for battlefield combat, self-defense, some have that sporting aspect, etc. MMA is designed exactly for the cage and utilizes techniques drawn from a wide range of TMA systems. It is good in the cage because well that is what it is designed for. Both can work for what they are designed for. TMA's have been very successful for self-defense and personal protection. Some have done well in the cage as well. MMA is an exceptional system for one on one mutual combat and it absolutely has cross over to be utilized for personal protection on the street.

I am sure we will continue the never ending debate here!

And this part I agree with totally. Just some people can't/won't see it.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

I think that you're presuming ill intent. speaking for myself, if I'm misquoting anyone, it's because the thread moves so fast that I can't keep up. I'm not a genius and I'm likely to make mistakes.

For example, if you say that there have never been any aikidoka competing in MMA because no one who trains aikido is interested in competition, that raises several red flags for me. It may not be a circular argument, but it sure does seem circular to me, even now, after you've cleared it up.

Perhaps what I should have said was 'very few' Aikido people are interested in competition.

Let me put it another way. How many times do you see highly trained wrestlers fighting highly trained boxers? Why not? Because they are not interested in competing against boxers. Here are a couple who tried. But it doesn't invalidate the general statement.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y1Cx0ysQiM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FQcium20Cdk

Then when you get too cocky
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XX3kucj_b_8

edit: I went back and found the original post.

The philosophy of Aikido is not to harm your opponent so, in that spirit, who is going to go off to learn Aikido, which takes years to learn, so they can fight in the ring? The simple answer is nobody so you are never likely to find Aikido represented in an MMA competition. If someone has the desire to fight and test themselves against others in the ring, they will go to learn a sport that is best suited to the competition they wish to compete in.

OK so I went back and found what I actually said. I didn't say 'not to hurt'. I said 'not to harm'. Big difference.


And, my statement was not that nobody with an Aikido background won't ever fight in MMA. I said no one will go to learn Aikido if they want to fight in the ring. That is nobody. If someone wants to fight in the ring they will train in a sport that is designed to match the rules of the competition they want to compete in.

 

[Tez3]

Please show us a female fighter in the UFC that fights like Ronda Rousey (i.e. utilizing clear Judo throws and takedowns).

Steve, I'm not bickering, I don't care one way or another other than now having a Tom Jones ear worm.

Hanzou, let it go mate, you said no one did Judo in MMA until Rousey, it's obvious there are many who have and still do use Judo. that's all. :burp:

 

[mook jong man]

I dedicate this song to Tez.

[video=youtube_share;NjEE_1U0-8s]http://youtu.be/NjEE_1U0-8s[/video]

 

[Steve]

Perhaps what I should have said was 'very few' Aikido people are interested in competition.

Let me put it another way. How many times do you see highly trained wrestlers fighting highly trained boxers? Why not? Because they are not interested in competing against boxers. Here are a couple who tried. But it doesn't invalidate the general statement.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y1Cx0ysQiM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FQcium20Cdk

Then when you get too cocky
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XX3kucj_b_8

edit: I went back and found the original post.


OK so I went back and found what I actually said. I didn't say 'not to hurt'. I said 'not to harm'. Big difference.


And, my statement was not that nobody with an Aikido background won't ever fight in MMA. I said no one will go to learn Aikido if they want to fight in the ring. That is nobody. If someone wants to fight in the ring they will train in a sport that is designed to match the rules of the competition they want to compete in.

We see wrestlers and boxers fighting all the time in Mma.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, let it go mate, you said no one did Judo in MMA until Rousey, it's obvious there are many who have and still do use Judo. that's all. :burp:

Where did I say that?

 

[K-man]

We see wrestlers and boxers fighting all the time in Mma.

Can you give me some examples of a fights in MMA with a highly trained boxer taking on a highly trained wrestler. I would have thought that was totally against the whole concept of mixed martial art. Unless they have cross trained I doubt there will be many of either persuasion in MMA let alone fighting each other.

Will Elite Wrestling Always Beat Elite Boxing in MMA? | Bleacher Report

Now Randy Couture would be the main guy I can think of as a wrestler but he also had boxing skills. He fought and beat James Toney in a classic mismatch. That fight was possibly one of the main reasons you won't have 'one trick ponies' in MMA.

In the main a good wrestler will probably outperform a good boxer but still doesn't invalidate my statement. There are very few highly trained wrestlers taking on highly trained boxers anywhere.