Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, I also remember hearing stories of traditional Jujutsu schools fighting each other constantly in old Japan. Like if you opened up a new dojo, the other schools would storm it and beat the crap out of you and your students. Also the prominent schools would have their best students fight in duels to see which school was superior.

We don't need to go that far.

When the Gong Li system master Wang Feng-Ting open a Shuai-Chiao school in Taiwan back in the 70th, 2 Shuai-Chiao guys from another school went to visit that school. They first pretended to be just beginners, sat on the corner, and watch. When the teaching assistant (the school master wasn't there) asked if they would like to train with them, those 2 guys not only beat up all the students, they also beat up the assistant instructor. The assistant instructor went to tell the school master. The school master invited both guys to his house, pull them some tea with glass powder in it. Both guys had blood came out of their butts for the next 3 months. That school soon shut down.

 

[Tez3]

Doesn't anyone consider they are perhaps overthinking this MMA lark? :idunno:

 

[granfire]

Totally OT, but OMG, TEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:inlove:

 

[Steve]

Doesn't anyone consider they are perhaps overthinking this MMA lark? :idunno:

That's crazy talk.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[RTKDCMB]

Your second example is non-sensible, not non sequitur.

Actually that would be a tautology (circular reasoning).

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why would they have to leave to compete? I don't understand.

We are not a competition style. The philosophy of the school, you can't very well have "To put the art into use only for self defense and defense of the weak" on the pledge and then go out and fight people by choice.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Has anyone ever stopped to consider that some instructors may purposely discourage or prevent their students from competing because it would expose their training method as ineffective?

This includes instructors who created martial systems and are long dead.

The key word is SOME, as you have indicated.

 

[drop bear]

We are not a competition style. The philosophy of the school, you can't very well have "To put the art into use only for self defense and defense of the weak" on the pledge and then go out and fight people by choice.

Depends why you fight.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Depends why you fight.

Fighting is a choice, self defense is not.

 

[Tez3]

We are not a competition style. The philosophy of the school, you can't very well have "To put the art into use only for self defense and defense of the weak" on the pledge and then go out and fight people by choice.

Well, as you are getting paid to fight it could be considered a job or career. It's consensual fighting which is different from going around bashing random people. You could say 'To use the art into use only for self defence, the defence of the week and to pay the grocery bills'.
The truth is, I suspect, that Aikidoka may not want to compete but there are some techniques in Aikido that MMA fighters can use to fight, not all will but they are there to add to the MMA arsenal if wanted. An MMA fighter has to have the arsenal at her disposal that suits her. I'm saying her because TUF is on again shortly and I have two mates in it, Aish the Bash and JoJo Calderwood, so guess who I'm shouting on. Yep I'm boasting lol, but these girls are GREAT!

 

[Hanzou]

The truth is, I suspect, that Aikidoka may not want to compete but there are some techniques in Aikido that MMA fighters can use to fight, not all will but they are there to add to the MMA arsenal if wanted.

I'm sure there's plenty of MMA fighters who could find use for the Ki push technique demonstrated by the founder of Aikido here;

All kidding aside, you're probably not seeing a whole lot of Aikido in MMA because its so difficult to find quality Aikido schools.

Videos like this;

And the one of the founder of Aikido doing supernatural stuff isn't very encouraging.

 

[Tez3]

All kidding aside you don't see a great deal of anything in MMA, what you see is a whole of everything. You still seem to think that an MMA fighter stands there and thinks right I shall use a TKD move to counter this then a BJJ one then a MT one, then I'll karate kick and a JKD punch. It simply isn't like that, you can rarely pick one technique out from another even when it's grappling, the techniques can come from BJJ, JJ, Judo and wrestling intermingled and mixed up. A techniques from Aikido isn't going to be a stand alone one, it will be mixed it perhaps tweaked a little.
I don't know what you have against Aikido, it doesn't sound very rational to keep going on about it. I've seen a couple of Aiki techniques used, our fighters were shown them at a seminar we went to. Fighters will utilise all and any technique from where ever. Some styles lend themselves to 'donating' more techniques than others but all styles have something to offer someone.
Incidentally on the subject of Judo, here Olympic Judoka Neil Addams has done Judo for MMA for a number of years, they are very popular too. Iain Abernethy a karateka (he's also a Judoka btw) renowned for his Bunkai seminars will often in his seminars point out a technique from kata that is useful for MMA (of which he is a fan btw) especially if I'm there lol.
I get that you don't like Aikido much but you are wrong about using techniques from it in MMA, not all but there are some, if people want to use them.

 

[Steve]

Actually that would be a tautology (circular reasoning).

LOL. You're right. Kman's argument was circular. My mistake. It remains a fallacious argument. I'm getting the impression, however, that you and others think it was MY reasoning. It was not.

 

[Hanzou]

All kidding aside you don't see a great deal of anything in MMA, what you see is a whole of everything. You still seem to think that an MMA fighter stands there and thinks right I shall use a TKD move to counter this then a BJJ one then a MT one, then I'll karate kick and a JKD punch. It simply isn't like that, you can rarely pick one technique out from another even when it's grappling, the techniques can come from BJJ, JJ, Judo and wrestling intermingled and mixed up. A techniques from Aikido isn't going to be a stand alone one, it will be mixed it perhaps tweaked a little.

Again, I can see the primary art of a fighter peeking through when they fight. Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that Ronda Rousey fights like the typical MMA female fighter? She's dominating right now because of her Judo abilities, and you can see those abilities at work whenever she fights. That's because 80%-85% of her martial arts experience comes from Judo. The reason the other female fighters look fairly similar to one another, while Rousey looks like she is from another martial planet is because they're all coming from boxing/kickboxing, Wrestling, and Bjj backgrounds. They don't know how to counter Rousey's Judo because they never had to deal with it before she showed up on the scene.

I don't know what you have against Aikido, it doesn't sound very rational to keep going on about it. I've seen a couple of Aiki techniques used, our fighters were shown them at a seminar we went to.

A seminar is different than in the cage. Again, Rousey was able to modify Judo because Judo's already existing training mechanism made it possible for that transition to take place. You just needed someone to be willing to modify it, and that modification simply required going from gi to no-gi. If you know how to throw a fully resisting opponent with a gi on, throwing someone without the gi is simply a matter of modifying your grips. We do the exact same thing in Bjj in no-gi competition. The fact that Judokas are now doing it is an awesome thing to see.

I have nothing against Aikido, I just simply don't believe that Aikido works in the octagon for the exact reason Bas Rutten said it wouldn't work.

 

[Tez3]

Gosh, is a seminar really different from the cage, wow nearly 20 years in MMA ( and 20 more in MA) and I never knew!

Rousey is the poster girl for the UFC which I assume is the only promotion you watch. Honestly how many female MMA fighters have you watched over the years? We had a female fighter, several years ago who was a black belt Judoka, she was very good winning a UK title in MMA, yes Judo throws and all, unfortunately she was also in the Army and went off to Iraq and Afghanistan so didn't pursue her MMA career, Rousey's fighting isn't unique at all. People think it is because she's the first female in the UFC to use it, other female fighters around the world notably Japan have been fighting like her or should I say she's been fighting like them. Rousey is 'dominating' right now because her opponents are picked carefully as to be honest are most of the UFC fighters, it is after all a business and they aim to make money, putting her in with a fighter who will beat her isn't on the agenda. Yes she's good but she's not unique far from it. She's a product of the UFC factory. Judo has been used in MMA for years, Rousey isn't the first and people aren't doing Judo because of her. Judo has been a primary art for many fighters here for years. The UK doesn't have the background of wrestling there is in the states so it's always been Judo and then BJJ here. Obviously Japan has always been into Judo lol.
More and more there is no primary style for MMA fighters, several years ago young teenagers were coming into the gyms knowing nothing so were taught MMA, those kids are of age now and you will see no 'primary' style anymore when they fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Gosh, is a seminar really different from the cage, wow nearly 20 years in MMA ( and 20 more in MA) and I never knew!

Rousey is the poster girl for the UFC which I assume is the only promotion you watch. Honestly how many female MMA fighters have you watched over the years? We had a female fighter, several years ago who was a black belt Judoka, she was very good winning a UK title in MMA, yes Judo throws and all, unfortunately she was also in the Army and went off to Iraq and Afghanistan so didn't pursue her MMA career, Rousey's fighting isn't unique at all. People think it is because she's the first female in the UFC to use it, other female fighters around the world notably Japan have been fighting like her or should I say she's been fighting like them. Rousey is 'dominating' right now because her opponents are picked carefully as to be honest are most of the UFC fighters, it is after all a business and they aim to make money, putting her in with a fighter who will beat her isn't on the agenda. Yes she's good but she's not unique far from it. She's a product of the UFC factory. Judo has been used in MMA for years, Rousey isn't the first and people aren't doing Judo because of her. Judo has been a primary art for many fighters here for years. The UK doesn't have the background of wrestling there is in the states so it's always been Judo and then BJJ here. Obviously Japan has always been into Judo lol.
More and more there is no primary style for MMA fighters, several years ago young teenagers were coming into the gyms knowing nothing so were taught MMA, those kids are of age now and you will see no 'primary' style anymore when they fight.

Okay, but my point wasn't really about Rousey being a pioneer, it was about her fighting style looking very different from existing fighters in her league (Strikeforce and UFC) because of her Judo background.

 

[Tez3]

Okay, but my point wasn't really about Rousey being a pioneer, it was about her fighting style looking very different from existing fighters in her league (Strikeforce and UFC) because of her Judo background.

Well she may be unusual for America but certainly not anywhere else.

 

[Tez3]

From thedifficultway.blogspot.co.uk

"

I think the answer to this lies in several structural issues. The main one being that the MMA promotion that the overwhelming majority of us English speakers watch is the UFC. The UFC as an American franchise draws a large quantity of its fighters from the American population, unsurprisingly. Although Brazil is also a major ‘supplier’ of fighters. However, the American nature of the UFC has a relevance to Judo. America is a minor Judo nation, it is utterly dwarfed by the big Asian powers of Japan and Korea and the European big beasts of Russia, France, Holland and Germany. Also America has a very small practicing Judo population with a small elite talent pool. By contrast America has a massive wrestling talent pool, a world class wrestling talent development framework and world class coaches across the country. It is then unsurprising that an American MMA promotion like the UFC produces many more fighters with a wrestling background than Judo one. If you look to MMA promotions in Japan, Russia, Brazil and France you will find a much higher profile of Judoka being successful, because all these countries have in place what America has in place for wrestling, but not Judo. It’s interesting to note that some of the most famous Brazilian fighters have Judo black belts – Silva, Silva and Nogueira – and that in Brazil Judo is one of the most popular sports, more popular than BJJ."

 

[Steve]

Well she may be unusual for America but certainly not anywhere else.

Tez, the salient point is that her judo shines because it is her base art. Similarly, wrestling shines when the athlete's base is firmly established in wrestling. Machida's karate is apparent in his style of MMA because he is firmly entrenched in his base art.

Any high level MMAist will be well trained in multiple arts, but the base tends to shine through. We can presume that the same would be true for other arts. Cung Le's san shou was apparent. A skilled aikidoka would very likely LOOK like an aikidoka.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, the salient point is that her judo shines because it is her base art. Similarly, wrestling shines when the athlete's base is firmly established in wrestling. Machida's karate is apparent in his style of MMA because he is firmly entrenched in his base art.

Any high level MMAist will be well trained in multiple arts, but the base tends to shine through. We can presume that the same would be true for other arts. Cung Le's san shou was apparent. A skilled aikidoka would very likely LOOK like an aikidoka.

If they have a base art, it's getting less and less likely that fighters do these days as they train MMA from knowing no martial arts. However Hanzou's original assertion was that no one used Judo or had it as a base art until Rousey, that simply isn't true which is why I posted what I did. He was also sure no one used Aiki techniques which again is simply not true. It may be true that Aikidoka don't compete but it is true that there are techniques to be had from Aiki. That's my points.