Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[drop bear]

Akidokas competing.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aj8xH_aiCtg

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QWpVUMCcSys

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lhg4RRib40

An akidoka who has taken up mma.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SUTehKiyXWQ

 

[K-man]

Or google akido competition.

But the other side of that would be the reason that a mma fighter does not compete in boxing kick boxing or wrestling because they can't utilise all of their weapons.

Oh wait.....

Isn't that pretty much what I suggested earlier? I didn't say MMA because MMA trains in those areas. What I asked about was how a BJJ guy would go in a competition under WTF rules. It just isn't going to happen. Why? Because it is totally illogical.

Now if you do Google 'Aikido competition' it is likely you will come up with Tomiki aikido. Even here, this competition was totally against the wishes of Ueshiba, and it is a totally different type of competition to what people expect in the martial arts.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Isn't that pretty much what I suggested earlier? I didn't say MMA because MMA trains in those areas. What I asked about was how a BJJ guy would go in a competition under WTF rules. It just isn't going to happen. Why? Because it is totally illogical.

Now if you do Google 'Aikido competition' it is likely you will come up with Tomiki aikido. Even here, this competition was totally against the wishes of Ueshiba, and it is a totally different type of competition to what people expect in the martial arts.
:asian:

So you are suggesting grappling with finger grabs vs grappling is the same as no kicking at all vs kicking?

It is that big a transition?

Akido should still be able to stop people within the mma rule set.

 

[K-man]

Akidokas competing.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aj8xH_aiCtg

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QWpVUMCcSys

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lhg4RRib40

An akidoka who has taken up mma.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SUTehKiyXWQ

Number 1. Perhaps. Makes a good arguement why some aikido people should never fight.
Number 2. Looks more like some form of karate than Aikido. I've never seen Aikido kicks like those. Who said the guy is aikido?
Number 3. Out of context. Here is the whole video ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rs4gTZjSqJc
Number 4. Tomiki Aikido (see previous comment posted above)
Number 5. Proves my point. You want to fight in MMA, you go to an MMA gym.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

So you are suggesting grappling with finger grabs vs grappling is the same as no kicking at all vs kicking?

Sorry. I don't understand the question. It doesn't sound like anything I have suggested.

Akido should still be able to stop people within the mma rule set.

Just the same as pure boxing should be able to stop people within the MMA rule set or pure wrestling or pure BJJ? That is a patently false assumption and totally illogical. Plus it totally ignores what I have already posted two or three times in this thread about the Aikido techniques that are outside MMA rules. It is just as stupid as my hypothetical about the BJJ fighter fighting a TKD guy under WTF rules.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry. I don't understand the question. It doesn't sound like anything I have suggested.

Just the same as pure boxing should be able to stop people within the MMA rule set or pure wrestling or pure BJJ? That is a patently false assumption and totally illogical. Plus it totally ignores what I have already posted two or three times in this thread about the Aikido techniques that are outside MMA rules. It is just as stupid as my hypothetical about the BJJ fighter fighting a TKD guy under WTF rules.

So if we took away finger grabs akido is completely nullified? Just like if we removed all grappling from bjj.

 

[K-man]

So if we took away finger grabs akido is completely nullified? Just like if we removed all grappling from bjj.

What are you on about? Where did you get that stupid idea from? Certainly nothing I have posted.
Finger locks would be less than half of one percent of Aikido. If grappling was removed from BJJ there wouldn't be much left.

 

[drop bear]

What are you on about? Where did you get that stupid idea from? Certainly nothing I have posted.
Finger locks would be less than half of one percent of Aikido. If grappling was removed from BJJ there wouldn't be much left.

So, hypothetically the Aikido practitioner who may have had enough weapons in his traditional armoury has about half of them removed. The GJJ practitioner has nothing removed. Now although Aikido contains strikes and kicks, they are performed differently and for a different reason than say Muay Thai. So maybe Muay Thai might be a fit with Aikido. Then Aikido is not designed around staying to fight on the ground. It is about getting up from the ground or not going there in the first place, so to be competitive he now needs to learn BJJ.


I would just like to point out again that Wrist locks are not considered small joints in MMA. You CAN use wrist and ankle locks in the vast majority of MMA competitions. Royce Gracie used a wrist lock to defeat Akebono in 2004.

I was talking of small joint manipulation, ie fingers. And of course that also applies to any of the CMA guys who might practise Chin Na as I do.

Isn't that pretty much what I suggested earlier? I didn't say MMA because MMA trains in those areas. What I asked about was how a BJJ guy would go in a competition under WTF rules. It just isn't going to happen. Why? Because it is totally illogical.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm forced to agree with Bas Rutten's take on Aikido in MMA;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

That reasoning seems far more likely than "There are no Aikidoka interested in MMA".

 

[K-man]

I'm forced to agree with Bas Rutten's take on Aikido in MMA;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

That reasoning seems far more likely than "There are no Aikidoka interested in MMA".

I don't disagree with anything Bas said in this video. What he is talking about with the swinging punch is the training methodology that personally I haven't seen in Aikido. I agree when he says you can't catch punches so if Aikido guys are training that way then their training is flawed. Controlling a committed punch is slightly different.

If you are right with your theory why haven't we seen at least hundreds or even thousands of Aikidoka trying to match it in MMA and failing? Obviously that is not the case. I have never met anyone from Aikido that had expressed any wish to compete in MMA. In fact I only know one who competes in Tomiki tournaments.

 

[K-man]

So, hypothetically the Aikido practitioner who may have had enough weapons in his traditional armoury has about half of them removed. The GJJ practitioner has nothing removed. Now although Aikido contains strikes and kicks, they are performed differently and for a different reason than say Muay Thai. So maybe Muay Thai might be a fit with Aikido. Then Aikido is not designed around staying to fight on the ground. It is about getting up from the ground or not going there in the first place, so to be competitive he now needs to learn BJJ.


I would just like to point out again that Wrist locks are not considered small joints in MMA. You CAN use wrist and ankle locks in the vast majority of MMA competitions. Royce Gracie used a wrist lock to defeat Akebono in 2004.

I was talking of small joint manipulation, ie fingers. And of course that also applies to any of the CMA guys who might practise Chin Na as I do.

Isn't that pretty much what I suggested earlier? I didn't say MMA because MMA trains in those areas. What I asked about was how a BJJ guy would go in a competition under WTF rules. It just isn't going to happen. Why? Because it is totally illogical.

And I would just like to point out that I never said wrist locks were small joint manipulation and I never claimed they were outside MMA rules. As I have already posted what I said three times I am assuming you are just trying to annoy as I don't believe you are stupid. As to what you have posted here, it is mostly what I said, especially the last sentence.

i pointed out nine areas where normal Aikido practice falls foul of MMA rules. You made one up that I didn't list and, despite my clarification, you keep posting your words as mine.

 

[Tez3]

What we see in MMA fights is MMA fighters, you know, the all round stuff, the stand up and the ground work all in together mixed up with various techniques from various styles with no one 'style' dominating. Are we ever going to get away from this one style is better than another thing? No one style works better in MMA, what works better is a fighter who has taken techniques from everywhere and anywhere that he/she can make work for them. when are people going to see this and stop arguing over styles? The style is MMA full stop.
On the subject of this Aikido 'cage fighter' from the UK, I've never heard of him as a fighter, the fact he calls himself a 'cage fighter' tells you something here, we are trying very hard to get the public to see it as MMA fighters/fights, the term cage fighter has connotations that we don't want here. It seems he's fought at least once on a small show but there's nothing to say he's Aikido in his fighting because he does what all MMA fighters do ie fight MMA. I know a couple of techniques as do our fighters from Aikido, as we do with techniques that come from other styles, as the risk of repeating myself, that's what MMA is, taking techniques from everywhere. In a proper MMA fight you aren't going to be able to say what techniques come from where, they should all flow one into another, they maybe changed a bit, modified a bit so the fighter size and reach perhaps but really all these arguing style v style is pretty pointless, it's MMA, you know MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.

 

[Spinedoc]

I'm forced to agree with Bas Rutten's take on Aikido in MMA;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

That reasoning seems far more likely than "There are no Aikidoka interested in MMA".

You still haven't answered my question. If you have spent a great deal of time in the pursuit and mastery of peace, harmony, blending, and mastering an art that at it's fundamental core teaches you to not harm your opponent......why would you...after doing that, pursue a competition that encompasses the exact opposite.

Think about that. When you can understand that......you will understand why you don't see competent aikidoka in MMA.

 

[Tez3]

You still haven't answered my question. If you have spent a great deal of time in the pursuit and mastery of peace, harmony, blending, and mastering an art that at it's fundamental core teaches you to not harm your opponent......why would you...after doing that, pursue a competition that encompasses the exact opposite.

Think about that. When you can understand that......you will understand why you don't see competent aikidoka in MMA.

Well you don't actually see any person who is competent in only one style in MMA, you see MMA fighters in MMA. I'm sure if an Aikidoka wanted to compete in MMA they would but train specifically just as everyone else does. All this one style stuff is really just beating around the bush. Any Aikidoka, Karateka, Judoka etc isn't that if they fight in MMA, they are an MMA fighter! What they are in other parts of their martial arts life is irrelevant as far as fighting in MMA is concerned. I know MMA fighters who also compete in boxing, karate and Judo as well as Muay Thai, when competing in these they can be described as that stylist ie a boxer in a boxing fight.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't disagree with anything Bas said in this video. What he is talking about with the swinging punch is the training methodology that personally I haven't seen in Aikido. I agree when he says you can't catch punches so if Aikido guys are training that way then their training is flawed. Controlling a committed punch is slightly different.

I'm sure he is talking about this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HB01hhonf8Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Qz99LrUAM

i.e. Catching someone's arm while their punching, gripping their wrist and putting them in a lock.

All of which is perfectly legal in MMA, and if someone could pull it off, they'd be elite level fairly easily.

If you are right with your theory why haven't we seen at least hundreds or even thousands of Aikidoka trying to match it in MMA and failing? Obviously that is not the case. I have never met anyone from Aikido that had expressed any wish to compete in MMA. In fact I only know one who competes in Tomiki tournaments.

Not all MMA matches are televised. In order to even get to the level of being on t.v. You have to fight in the lower leagues. UFC and similar venues are considered elite level. Only the too fighters get to fight on that level. The reality is that fighters using unorthodox methods like Aikido just don't make the cut for whatever reason.

 

[Hanzou]

Well you don't actually see any person who is competent in only one style in MMA, you see MMA fighters in MMA. I'm sure if an Aikidoka wanted to compete in MMA they would but train specifically just as everyone else does. All this one style stuff is really just beating around the bush. Any Aikidoka, Karateka, Judoka etc isn't that if they fight in MMA, they are an MMA fighter! What they are in other parts of their martial arts life is irrelevant as far as fighting in MMA is concerned. I know MMA fighters who also compete in boxing, karate and Judo as well as Muay Thai, when competing in these they can be described as that stylist ie a boxer in a boxing fight.

While true that MMA fighters train in multiple disciplines, it's also true that their primary art still defines their fighting style. Ronda Rousey for example had extremely weak striking when she entered MMA, but her expert level Judo skills filled the gaps in her striking ability and allowed her to be champion. Now she's been training in boxing to improve her striking ability, but that improved striking ability simply enhances her Judo abilities, because now she can set up Judo throws from strikes.

The same applies to guys like Chris Holdsworth, and Damien Maia who are mediocre strikers, but incredible Bjj stylists.

If someone was primarily an Aikido, Kung Fu, or whatever stylist, it would be very apparent, because they would be doing techniques never before seen in MMA. Like what Ronda Rousey is currently doing. No one was throwing people like that before she showed up on the scene.

 

[Steve]

Come on Steve. Keep up mate. Here is the context. I know it's moving fast.


I'm trying to keep things in context, despite being constantly misquoted.

OK. If you are so sure of that perhaps you would care to list them for me because I know of none.
:asian:

Kman, you've got some non sequitors going on. I think to be more clear, we need to distinguish between pain and injury. From what I've seen, aikido training involves a certain amount of pain. Pain is also a part of many BJJ competitions. But while injuries can occur in any competition, they are relatively rare.

The second non sequitor is to conclude that no aikidoka is interested in competition because there are no aikidoka competing.

 

[Hanzou]

You still haven't answered my question. If you have spent a great deal of time in the pursuit and mastery of peace, harmony, blending, and mastering an art that at it's fundamental core teaches you to not harm your opponent......why would you...after doing that, pursue a competition that encompasses the exact opposite.

Think about that. When you can understand that......you will understand why you don't see competent aikidoka in MMA.

Well everyone doesn't train for the same reasons.

Hell, Steven Segal is a scumbag, and he's supposedly a highly competent Aikidoka. This despite him bullying people and allegedly raping his wife. If a guy like that can reach high levels in Aikido, a person wanting to win a trophy or belt should also be able to do so.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Wait. Kman. I don't believe that in the universe of aikido practitioners, not one of them was not interested in competition. The law of averages just doesn't support this.

In my 27 years of Rhee TKD I have known only 2 students who have left because they wanted to compete. The law of averages doesn't support that either but that is the reality. It is not hard for me to see why Aikido practitioners might not be interested either.

 

[Buka]

Well everyone doesn't train for the same reasons.

Hell, Steven Segal is a scumbag, and he's supposedly a highly competent Aikidoka. This despite him bullying people and allegedly raping his wife. If a guy like that can reach high levels in Aikido, a person wanting to win a trophy or belt should also be able to do so.

I think Segal is too much of a dick to use as any kind of example of any damn thing.

I think the persona of an Aikidoka is different from that of an MMA fighter, as it should be. Just like you probably won't see a Buddhist getting in a food fight. Not that it won't ever happen, it's just not the right fit. And I know a whole lot of young guy fighters who always say they want to go into MMA, but they never do. I think it takes the right fit and the right kind of training - which is MMA training.