Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

I don't dispute that those folks exist. My point was simply that you had a world class grappler (Gracie) get destroyed by another grappler (Hughes) who also had more superior striking. Note that in my closing post, I said that it's important to have a good ground game, but to be sure you add in the other stuff as well.

I certainly agree that times have definitely changed, and you need a very well rounded toolset to win in MMA. I was just merely pointing out that the semi-pure Bjj stylists still exist in MMA, and that Bjj is still the cornerstone of MMA.

 

[jezr74]

How does someone not understand a martial art? I've been doing martial arts for many years, and I know technical skill when I see it. A lot of those videos don't show a lot of technical skill, at least not in the unscripted fighting side of things. The forms match the hollywood image, yet the actual fighting does not.

My question is simply why is that the case? I wonder why such an honest question makes you so defensive.



Well that's great. However, maybe you should watch them to understand exactly what I'm talking about.

The question is simple enough, I think your just not getting the answer you want that's complicating it.

 

[K-man]

No small joint manipulation. Aikido and Arnis, both have small joint manip. and according to the rules, it's not legal. So, while some may be, I would agree with you, in saying that 100% of certain arts can be used. Of course, it's a pet peeve of mine, when I hear people always talk about 'the deadly' things in their art. Sure, those things are all very viable, useful tools, but if that's what one needs, in order to always win, then IMHO, that person missed out on some lessons.

I think it goes a little further than that. Despite what Hanzou claims, if you look at the origins of BJJ it was developed as a competitive sport, certainly very realistic and brutal, that could be used as a means of defending yourself on the street. The original UFC was developed around what became GJJ and even they had to add a striking component to their training to remain competitive. MMA says a lot just in its name. It is not just one style to be competitive across all the fighting styles you needed to know more than one system.

So, hypothetically the Aikido practitioner who may have had enough weapons in his traditional armoury has about half of them removed. The GJJ practitioner has nothing removed. Now although Aikido contains strikes and kicks, they are performed differently and for a different reason than say Muay Thai. So maybe Muay Thai might be a fit with Aikido. Then Aikido is not designed around staying to fight on the ground. It is about getting up from the ground or not going there in the first place, so to be competitive he now needs to learn BJJ.

The philosophy of Aikido is not to harm your opponent so, in that spirit, who is going to go off to learn Aikido, which takes years to learn, so they can fight in the ring? The simple answer is nobody so you are never likely to find Aikido represented in an MMA competition. If someone has the desire to fight and test themselves against others in the ring, they will go to learn a sport that is best suited to the competition they wish to compete in.

So while I certainly agree that you need to test the effectiveness of your art to be confident that you can use it to defend yourself, the MMA ring or Octagon is not the place.
:asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

You say this with MMA in mind, but seriously, step back and look. You and others are sharing thinly veiled derision just as much as anyone else.

Regarding competition, I agree. The point I was making earlier has to do with the qualifications of an instructor, more than the choices of a student. If you're learning from someone who has never actually found out whether they're doing it right, you risk finding out yourself when it's too late. "Oh no! I'm being mugged and my training didn't adequately prepare me!" That's too late.

Once again, it's not about technique. It's about YOUR ability or MY ability to execute the techniques. The advantage of competition is that it is a very effective way to lower the stakes. It's not the only way, but in the safe world in which most of us live, it's the most effective, IMO.

it's true that it happens both ways, and it's equally obnoxious. this thread happened to be started from one particular point of view. So that's where we are with this particular one.

 

[K-man]

How does someone not understand a martial art? I've been doing martial arts for many years, and I know technical skill when I see it.

You keep saying this but you don't say what your experience is. :hmm:

My question is simply why is that the case? I wonder why such an honest question makes you so defensive.

Your simple question has been answered over and over. I can only answer it in light of my training or my limited experience in several other styles I have dabbled in. Principally the answer is the same for every style that doesn't compete. Our MAs are not designed for competition and even those that do have competitions of their own have different competition to the ones you compete in.

Maybe we would be better taking a BJJ guy into the ring with a TKD guy under WTF rules. That will probably show that the TKD is much better under those rules. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

 

[drop bear]

You keep saying this but you don't say what your experience is. :hmm:

Your simple question has been answered over and over. I can only answer it in light of my training or my limited experience in several other styles I have dabbled in. Principally the answer is the same for every style that doesn't compete. Our MAs are not designed for competition and even those that do have competitions of their own have different competition to the ones you compete in.

Maybe we would be better taking a BJJ guy into the ring with a TKD guy under WTF rules. That will probably show that the TKD is much better under those rules. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

That the tkd guy can kick better. Because his system trains more effective kicking.

 

[Flying Crane]

Speaking only for myself, it's not what you look like. It's how closely your fighting resembles the techniques, demonstrations and philosophies of the style. What we've seen and heard in the controlled environment of training is radically different than examples we've seen of unscripted, uncontrolled interactions. The closest I've seen so far of a demonstration of the WC philosophies outside of compliant or scripted demos is the one where the kid is sparring with the muay thai guy. That was neat, really, and the way he jammed up the other kid and pushed him back was interesting. But as everyone said, the two kids weren't well trained.

So, you say we don't know what it looks like. Well, I'd love to see some examples of what it looks like. Please share some examples. It would be awesome.

what I'm saying is, it most likely will look like any other fighting. As Hanzou said, they just look like MMA guys fighting, it doesn't look like their style. yup, in the end result. People come together and fight, they punch, they push, they pull, the grab, they go to the ground...Some people seem to think that Chinese martial arts will produce some guy who looks radically different from that. They think it's going to be heavily stylized and postured. It won't, or it shouldn't if the guy actually knows what he's doing and isn't trying to look like a Shaw Brothers movie.

From my experience with the Chinese arts, the main purpose in the training method is to teach you to engage the body in a complete manner. Some of the TRAINING methods may be "stylized" in some way, but that is because an exaggerated movement often aids the body to grasp that full-body integration. But the important thing to remember is, that exaggerated, "stylized" movement, often seen in forms, has a training purpose that usually will not get translated directly into combat. The big, exaggerated movement helps you understand the full body engagement. Once you understand it, you can engage that principle with smaller, non-exaggerated, non-stylized movements. But there's a progression that, in Chinese training theory says, you start with big movements and gradually develop the ability to get the same effects with smaller movements. It's a bit like starting with training wheels, and then the training wheels come off the bike once you have some level of skill.

In terms of a real fight then, it just looks like someone fighting. Punches look like punches. There may be some subtle differences that the educated eye might catch, like a full-body engagement. Or not. And really, I know that other systems probably strive for this same effect, full-body engagement. They each have their methodology to train and develop that skill. What you see in a "stylized" system is simply that system's methodology for developing that skill. It's a training methodology, but it isn't necessarily seen in a direct way, in a real fight.

it's a bit difficult to express without showing, but I'm doing my best.

And I did train in Wing Chun for a few years but gave it up. I ultimately realized it wasn't the best match for me, I couldn't quite grasp how that particular training method was supposed to work. It could have been a reflection of the quality of training I received, or maybe I was too spread out trying to train in several systems at once, or whatever it may have been. But at any rate, I do something else that makes more sense to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

How does someone not understand a martial art? I've been doing martial arts for many years, and I know technical skill when I see it. A lot of those videos don't show a lot of technical skill, at least not in the unscripted fighting side of things. The forms match the hollywood image, yet the actual fighting does not.

My question is simply why is that the case? I wonder why such an honest question makes you so defensive.



Well that's great. However, maybe you should watch them to understand exactly what I'm talking about.

It is clear by what you post, that you do not understand Chinese martial arts. It ain't just technique that you can see. And no, I'm not talking about qi energy either. Take a look at my earlier response to Steve, I tried to explain it a bit.

and, sure there's a lot of bad examples out there. I seem to recall mentioning, earlier in this thread, that every system has its share of lousy folks.

 

[drop bear]

what I'm saying is, it most likely will look like any other fighting. As Hanzou said, they just look like MMA guys fighting, it doesn't look like their style. yup, in the end result. People come together and fight, they punch, they push, they pull, the grab, they go to the ground...Some people seem to think that Chinese martial arts will produce some guy who looks radically different from that. They think it's going to be heavily stylized and postured. It won't, or it shouldn't if the guy actually knows what he's doing and isn't trying to look like a Shaw Brothers movie.

From my experience with the Chinese arts, the main purpose in the training method is to teach you to engage the body in a complete manner. Some of the TRAINING methods may be "stylized" in some way, but that is because an exaggerated movement often aids the body to grasp that full-body integration. But the important thing to remember is, that exaggerated, "stylized" movement, often seen in forms, has a training purpose that usually will not get translated directly into combat. The big, exaggerated movement helps you understand the full body engagement. Once you understand it, you can engage that principle with smaller, non-exaggerated, non-stylized movements. But there's a progression that, in Chinese training theory says, you start with big movements and gradually develop the ability to get the same effects with smaller movements. It's a bit like starting with training wheels, and then the training wheels come off the bike once you have some level of skill.

In terms of a real fight then, it just looks like someone fighting. Punches look like punches. There may be some subtle differences that the educated eye might catch, like a full-body engagement. Or not. And really, I know that other systems probably strive for this same effect, full-body engagement. They each have their methodology to train and develop that skill. What you see in a "stylized" system is simply that system's methodology for developing that skill. It's a training methodology, but it isn't necessarily seen in a direct way, in a real fight.

it's a bit difficult to express without showing, but I'm doing my best.

And I did train in Wing Chun for a few years but gave it up. I ultimately realized it wasn't the best match for me, I couldn't quite grasp how that particular training method was supposed to work. It could have been a reflection of the quality of training I received, or maybe I was too spread out trying to train in several systems at once, or whatever it may have been. But at any rate, I do something else that makes more sense to me.

Little boxes.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HlSpc87Jfr0

It is a dumb song that irritates me. It just shows the person singing it has not bothered to learn anything about the subject he was singing about.

 

[Flying Crane]

Little boxes.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HlSpc87Jfr0

It is a dumb song that irritates me. It just shows the person singing it has not bothered to learn anything about the subject he was singing about.

I'm not sure how that relates, exactly. I will say however, that that song was written about the City in which I live. Little boxes made of ricky-tacky on the hillside...yup, that's Daly City, California.

 

[Hanzou]

I think it goes a little further than that. Despite what Hanzou claims, if you look at the origins of BJJ it was developed as a competitive sport, certainly very realistic and brutal, that could be used as a means of defending yourself on the street. The original UFC was developed around what became GJJ and even they had to add a striking component to their training to remain competitive. MMA says a lot just in its name. It is not just one style to be competitive across all the fighting styles you needed to know more than one system.

So, hypothetically the Aikido practitioner who may have had enough weapons in his traditional armoury has about half of them removed. The GJJ practitioner has nothing removed. Now although Aikido contains strikes and kicks, they are performed differently and for a different reason than say Muay Thai. So maybe Muay Thai might be a fit with Aikido. Then Aikido is not designed around staying to fight on the ground. It is about getting up from the ground or not going there in the first place, so to be competitive he now needs to learn BJJ.

The philosophy of Aikido is not to harm your opponent so, in that spirit, who is going to go off to learn Aikido, which takes years to learn, so they can fight in the ring? The simple answer is nobody so you are never likely to find Aikido represented in an MMA competition. If someone has the desire to fight and test themselves against others in the ring, they will go to learn a sport that is best suited to the competition they wish to compete in.

So while I certainly agree that you need to test the effectiveness of your art to be confident that you can use it to defend yourself, the MMA ring or Octagon is not the place.
:asian:

I would just like to point out again that Wrist locks are not considered small joints in MMA. You CAN use wrist and ankle locks in the vast majority of MMA competitions. Royce Gracie used a wrist lock to defeat Akebono in 2004.

It's also kind of strange to develop a "sport" who's sporting events revolve solely around beating the crap out of other, unrelated martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how that relates, exactly. I will say however, that that song was written about the City in which I live. Little boxes made of ricky-tacky on the hillside...yup, that's Daly City, California.

Only if you are not really looking.

 

[K-man]

Little boxes.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HlSpc87Jfr0

It is a dumb song that irritates me. It just shows the person singing it has not bothered to learn anything about the subject he was singing about.

Oh boy! The younger generation. <shows despair> Pete Seeger was one of the great folk singers of the 60s. That song was at the top of the hit parade for weeks.

And of course it was a political song of protest at the time. He knew exactly what he was singing about ... shoddy construction and the spread of suburbia. He only died earlier this year but he was one of the greats of his era.

I'm not sure how that relates, exactly. I will say however, that that song was written about the City in which I live. Little boxes made of ricky-tacky on the hillside...yup, that's Daly City, California.

Did they ever improve the architecture?

 

[K-man]

I would just like to point out again that Wrist locks are not considered small joints in MMA. You CAN use wrist and ankle locks in the vast majority of MMA competitions. Royce Gracie used a wrist lock to defeat Akebono in 2004.

It's also kind of strange to develop a "sport" who's sporting events revolve solely around beating the crap out of other, unrelated martial arts.

I was talking of small joint manipulation, ie fingers. And of course that also applies to any of the CMA guys who might practise Chin Na as I do.

And what was the sport who's sporting events revolve solely around beating the crap out of other unrelated martial arts? I must have missed that one.

 

[drop bear]

I was talking of small joint manipulation, ie fingers. And of course that also applies to any of the CMA guys who might practise Chin Na as I do.

And what was the sport who's sporting events revolve solely around beating the crap out of other unrelated martial arts? I must have missed that one.

So too deadly to compete?

 

[K-man]

So too deadly to compete?

Read my earlier post.

 

[Hanzou]

I was talking of small joint manipulation, ie fingers. And of course that also applies to any of the CMA guys who might practise Chin Na as I do.

We also have that in Bjj as well, along with wrist and ankle locks.

There's a Bjj competitor out of Brazil who is known for his devastating wrist locks in competition;

Wrist Locks With The Master

And what was the sport who's sporting events revolve solely around beating the crap out of other unrelated martial arts? I must have missed that one.

That would be Brazilian Jiujitsu.

Events: Gracie Challenge Fights, Vale Tudo, UFC.

 

[K-man]

We also have that in Bjj as well, along with wrist and ankle locks.

There's a Bjj competitor out of Brazil who is known for his devastating wrist locks in competition;

Wrist Locks With The Master

That would be Brazilian Jiujitsu.

Events: Gracie Challenge Fights, Vale Tudo, UFC.

So you are saying you practise Chin Na? Interesting, most martial artists haven't even heard of it.

And with due respect to a man who has obviously gone a long way in BJJ, his wrist locks in this instance were not impressive.

And the bit about the sport in question? That was my attempt at humour. Sorry you didn't pick up on that.

 

[Hanzou]

So you are saying you practise Chin Na? Interesting, most martial artists haven't even heard of it.

Well, finger breaks. We don't call it Chin Na though.

And with due respect to a man who has obviously gone a long way in BJJ, his wrist locks in this instance were not impressive.

Well, unimpressive and effective is better than impressive and ineffective. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[K-man]

Well, finger breaks. We don't call it Chin Na though.

Well, unimpressive and effective is better than impressive and ineffective. Wouldn't you agree?

Then you don't practise Chin Na.

Unlike you who bags everything not MMA I prefer not to go down that track, but since you asked. No, neither effective or impressive. So again, what is your experience that suggests that the techniques in the video would be effective?