Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

Then you don't practise Chin Na.

Unlike you who bags everything not MMA I prefer not to go down that track, but since you asked. No, neither effective or impressive. So again, what is your experience that suggests that the techniques in the video would be effective?

My apologies, I put the wrong video up. I thought that video was this one;

Fast forward to 4:45. That's where he starts talking about wrist locks.

They're clearly effective, since Paixo used them in Bjj competitions and submitted highly trained grapplers with them.

Since we acknowledge that Bjj is effective, then a Bjj practitioner subbing Bjj black belts with wrist locks has extremely effective wrist locks.

 

[K-man]

My apologies, I put the wrong video up. I thought that video was this one;

Fast forward to 4:45. That's where he starts talking about wrist locks.

They're clearly effective, since Paixo used them in Bjj competitions and submitted highly trained grapplers with them.

Since we acknowledge that Bjj is effective, then a Bjj practitioner subbing Bjj black belts with wrist locks has extremely effective wrist locks.

Ok, that one is fine but what are you trying to say? I'm not doubting wrist locks. We train them every session. I have no doubt they are effective in competition but I asked you about finger locks and using fingers to control as taught in Chin Na.

 

[Hanzou]

Ok, that one is fine but what are you trying to say? I'm not doubting wrist locks. We train them every session. I have no doubt they are effective in competition but I asked you about finger locks and using fingers to control as taught in Chin Na.

You asked about the wrist locks in the video, because earlier you said that Paxio's wrist locks were neither impressive or effective.

Unlike you who bags everything not MMA I prefer not to go down that track, but since you asked. No, neither effective or impressive. So again, what is your experience that suggests that the techniques in the video would be effective?

If you're forcing the submission of a skilled grappler with a wrist lock, then I would say that your skills are very effective. In Bjj, we use wrist locks to force a submission when the opponent isn't tapping to another submission. And yes, its brutally effective. I've known people who quit Bjj altogether because some Brazilians came to a competition and started snapping wrists.

I favor wrist and arm locks and breaks to finger locks and breaks. The time you spend trying to pry someone's fingers open could be better spent snapping their wrist instead.

The effectiveness of the Bjj wrist lock is just another example of how competition is an excellent pressure-cooker to test the effectiveness of techniques.

 

[K-man]

You asked about the wrist locks in the video, because earlier you said that Paxio's wrist locks were neither impressive or effective. If you're forcing the submission of a skilled grappler, then I would say that your skills are very effective.

[/I][/COLOR]If you're forcing the submission of a skilled grappler with a wrist lock, then I would say that your skills are very effective. In Bjj, we use wrist locks to force a submission when the opponent isn't tapping to another submission. And yes, its brutally effective. I've known people who quit Bjj altogether because some Brazilians came to a competition and started snapping wrists.

I favor wrist and arm locks and breaks to finger locks and breaks. The time you spend trying to pry someone's fingers open could be better spent snapping their wrist instead.

Sorry, I didn't ask about wrist locks at all. I was talking about small joint manipulation that is not legal in MMA competition. Chin Na has very little to do with finger breaks and absolutely nothing to do with prying fingers. I think wrist locks and arm bars are great. I teach them and train them almost every day. They are part and parcel of everyday TMA training. I'm not sure why you introduced them into the discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry, I didn't ask about wrist locks at all. I was talking about small joint manipulation that is not legal in MMA competition. Chin Na has very little to do with finger breaks and absolutely nothing to do with prying fingers. I think wrist locks and arm bars are great. I teach them and train them almost every day. They are part and parcel of everyday TMA training. I'm not sure why you introduced them into the discussion.

You didn't say this;

And with due respect to a man who has obviously gone a long way in BJJ, his wrist locks in this instance were not impressive.

I brought up wrist locks, because you said that Aikido couldn't compete in MMA because wrist locks were illegal. When I mentioned that in many MMA competitions they were perfectly legal, you switched over to finger locks, which Aikido isn't all that well known for. When I think Aikido, I'm thinking wrist locks and spectacular throws.

It would be wonderful to see an Aikido specialist apply such skills in an MMA competition.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I can't believe this is still going on.

And I'm still reading it.

How does someone not understand a martial art? I've been doing martial arts for many years, and I know technical skill when I see it. A lot of those videos don't show a lot of technical skill, at least not in the unscripted fighting side of things. The forms match the hollywood image, yet the actual fighting does not.

My question is simply why is that the case? I wonder why such an honest question makes you so defensive.

Bruce Lee said something about how when he started in TV/movies he soon realised that real fighting techniques (presumably WC/Kung Fu at the time but I may be corrected on that) didn't look good on screen as everything happened too fast and close for the eye to follow, or something like that. I'm sure somebody can dig it out if it's relevant.

Carry on!

 

[Tez3]

I think that the point of MMA is being missed by some, arguing over which style has the most techniques used or which stylist would do better is pointless. It really is, an MMA fighter is someone who can use techniques that work for them, these will be from as many styles as is necessary and will be adapted by that fighter and his coaches if it looks a good move but could be tweaked. Bear in mind too that many styles have similar techniques done in slightly different ways. Perhaps I could make a plea that people start seeing MMA as a whole rather than try to pick it apart to prove which style has more techniques used. You won't have an Aikidoka fighting nor a Judoka or Karateka in the cage, what you will have is an MMA fighter and that should be good enough for anyone!

 

[Hanzou]

I think that the point of MMA is being missed by some, arguing over which style has the most techniques used or which stylist would do better is pointless. It really is, an MMA fighter is someone who can use techniques that work for them, these will be from as many styles as is necessary and will be adapted by that fighter and his coaches if it looks a good move but could be tweaked. Bear in mind too that many styles have similar techniques done in slightly different ways. Perhaps I could make a plea that people start seeing MMA as a whole rather than try to pick it apart to prove which style has more techniques used. You won't have an Aikidoka fighting nor a Judoka or Karateka in the cage, what you will have is an MMA fighter and that should be good enough for anyone!

Well to be fair, we have Judokas and Karatekas in MMA.

We're still waiting for the first Aikidoka.

 

[Spinedoc]

Well to be fair, we have Judokas and Karatekas in MMA.

We're still waiting for the first Aikidoka.

Here's a guy who claims to use Aikido in his MMA fights, blended with a lot of other techniques....hence......MMA. I have no idea to the veracity of his claims.

[video=youtube_share;L7iLl2myzkQ]http://youtu.be/L7iLl2myzkQ[/video]

 

[K-man]

You didn't say this;

Originally Posted by K-man
And with due respect to a man who has obviously gone a long way in BJJ, his wrist locks in this instance were not impressive.

I brought up wrist locks, because you said that Aikido couldn't compete in MMA because wrist locks were illegal. When I mentioned that in many MMA competitions they were perfectly legal, you switched over to finger locks, which Aikido isn't all that well known for. When I think Aikido, I'm thinking wrist locks and spectacular throws.

It would be wonderful to see an Aikido specialist apply such skills in an MMA competition.

Sure I said that, but that was in response to your digression. I didn't say anywhere that wrist locks were not legal. I was replying to Tony Dismukes' comment that 100% of Aikido was legal. I also didn't say that Aikido couldn't compete in MMA because wrist locks were illegal. What I actually said: "And again I would say about the Vale Tude etc, that Aikido was not represented because no one from Aikido was interested, if indeed they were even invited."

What I am pointing out is that in Aikido once we have a wrist lock in place we often change to control using the fingers. So you see it in context and as nothing to do with wrist locks:

Originally Posted by K-man As to 100% of Aikido being legal in the ring ... not true. Even the basic takedowns you see would not be legal as the technique actually is a knee drop to the neck in real life. (Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent) Another is the elbow strike to the ribs on the way to applying nikkyo or yonkyo. (Striking downward using the point of the elbow)


Kaitenage, one of the main take downs involves a knife hand strike to the neck. (Striking to the spine or the back of the head)


Iriminage is a bicep strike to the throat, many of the joint manipulations actually go on break fingers (Small joint manipulation), after applying sankyo the follow up is the knife hand to the back of the neck followed by the knee to the face if he's still standing. (would certainly come under the unsportsmanlike rule even if not considered a grounded opponent)


All takedowns in Aikido involve turning the head away from Nage when you are on the floor. That is to protect your face from getting kicked. (Kicking the head of a grounded opponent)


Release from a shoulder grab amongst others, not done in isolation, involves a shot at the eyes. (Eye gouging of any kind) It is only if that strike fails you move to the next technique such as nikkyo or an arm bar.


Defence against a shoulder grab from behind involves a strike to the groin. (Groin attacks of any kind)


After any of the takedowns where you are sill standing and you have a standing wrist lock the finishing technique is the heel stomp to a vulnerable point. (Stomping a grounded opponent)


When you consider Aikido only has about 15 techniques a lot of them work outside the rules of MMA.


Sure you can say that you don't have to use those nasty moves, just as you see Aikido normally trained, but that's a little like saying you can take your gun into the fight but you can't have any bullets.

So out of all the techniques I pointed out as not being able to be used in MMA competition you pick one out of context and ignore the rest. :hmm:

 

[K-man]

Here's a guy who claims to use Aikido in his MMA fights, blended with a lot of other techniques....hence......MMA. I have no idea to the veracity of his claims.

[video=youtube_share;L7iLl2myzkQ]http://youtu.be/L7iLl2myzkQ[/video]

Well he showed four techniques. I can promise you the first one is most unlikely to work in the way it was shown unless the guy is highly skilled and even then against full resistance as shown, not likely. The nikkyo on the floor with the collar grab, again extremely unlikely although the last nikkyo would work really well. Sankyo is great but again not easy to pull off in that situation. Kote gaeshi is my favourite but in the way he demonstrated it it is reasonably easy to reverse if you know how. On top of that, unless you are lightning fast you will be punched. It is impossible to plan to use a particular technique in the way it was demonstrated. All these techniques are opportunistic. If the opportunity arises you use it but you can't just try to apply it.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Sure I said that, but that was in response to your digression. I didn't say anywhere that wrist locks were not legal. I was replying to Tony Dismukes' comment that 100% of Aikido was legal. I also didn't say that Aikido couldn't compete in MMA because wrist locks were illegal. What I actually said: "And again I would say about the Vale Tude etc, that Aikido was not represented because no one from Aikido was interested, if indeed they were even invited."

What I am pointing out is that in Aikido once we have a wrist lock in place we often change to control using the fingers. So you see it in context and as nothing to do with wrist locks:

So out of all the techniques I pointed out as not being able to be used in MMA competition you pick one out of context and ignore the rest. :hmm:

Okay, so what exactly prevents Aikido from being strongly utilized in MMA?

 

[K-man]

Okay, so what exactly prevents Aikido from being strongly utilized in MMA?

Read what I wrote. I posted it twice. But because you are having difficulty understanding here it is for the last time.

Originally posted by K-man
And again I would say about the Vale Tude etc, that Aikido was not represented because no one from Aikido was interested, if indeed they were even invited.

And that was in the context of ...

When you consider Aikido only has about 15 techniques a lot of them work outside the rules of MMA.


Sure you can say that you don't have to use those nasty moves, just as you see Aikido normally trained, but that's a little like saying you can take your gun into the fight but you can't have any bullets.

 

[Hanzou]

Read what I wrote. I posted it twice. But because you are having difficulty understanding here it is for the last time.

Don't practicioners like Rik Ellis completely disprove that argument?

 

[Steve]

Read what I wrote. I posted it twice. But because you are having difficulty understanding here it is for the last time.


And that was in the context of ...

Wait. Kman. I don't believe that in the universe of aikido practitioners, not one of them was not interested in competition. The law of averages just doesn't support this.

 

[drop bear]

Wait. Kman. I don't believe that in the universe of aikido practitioners, not one of them was not interested in competition. The law of averages just doesn't support this.

Or google akido competition.

But the other side of that would be the reason that a mma fighter does not compete in boxing kick boxing or wrestling because they can't utilise all of their weapons.

Oh wait.....

 

[K-man]

The philosophy of Aikido is not to harm your opponent so, in that spirit, who is going to go off to learn Aikido, which takes years to learn, so they can fight in the ring? The simple answer is nobody so you are never likely to find Aikido represented in an MMA competition. If someone has the desire to fight and test themselves against others in the ring, they will go to learn a sport that is best suited to the competition they wish to compete in.

Come on Steve. Keep up mate. Here is the context. I know it's moving fast.


I'm trying to keep things in context, despite being constantly misquoted.

Wait. Kman. I don't believe that in the universe of aikido practitioners, not one of them was not interested in competition. The law of averages just doesn't support this.

OK. If you are so sure of that perhaps you would care to list them for me because I know of none.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Steven segal of course is an akido/mma trainer to the stars.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D7MNOpQhlBQ

 

[Spinedoc]

Well, I would state that no one that I know at the yudansha level or higher in Aikido would even consider MMA or competition. It is anathema to what you learn in Aikido, and given how long it takes to achieve a high rank in Aikido, I don't know of anyone that would consider it. I'm going to a seminar next weekend with Donovan Waite Shihan, so perhaps I'll ask him, but I think I can already surmise his answer.

When I've asked some in the past, they've laughed and said, that for starters they have no interest, and secondly, they have nothing to prove. It's just not even considered or thought of.

Aikido is about harmony, peace, and not (at least intentionally) harming your attacker. These are the fundamental tenets of Aikido. UFC/MMA are completely antithetical to these. So, now ask yourself, if you have studied an art for more than 5 years with those goals in mind, how likely are you to pursue a course in complete opposition to what you have been devoting yourself to?

The reason I posted the Rick Ellis video was to somewhat prove the opposite of what you are inferring that being that most of his maneuvers weren't pure aikido, and he actually used a lot more MMA techniques.

 

[K-man]

Don't practicioners like Rik Ellis completely disprove that argument?

You don't give up do you? Since when does one exception change a situation like this where thousands of others don't compete?

Rik Ellis has this to say :

Much to the irritation of many in the aikido community, I am the only person in the UK with a serious background in traditional aikido who is also a professional cage fighter. I hold a Dan grade with the Ellis School of Traditional Aikido but I also train in MMA with Suleman Raja of the Prize Fighters Gym in Farnborough and do fight conditioning at the Fight Science gym in Aldershot with Nick ‘Headhunter' Chapman.
Aikido vs MMA - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

Isn't that exactly what I said? Would Rik Ellis have learned Aikido if his father wasn't a top Aikidoka? I doubt it. He wanted to compete but he didn't want to compete as an Aikidoka. He went to train in an MMA gym so he could compete in MMA as a fighter trained to compete in MMA. Sure he uses some techniques that are taught in Aikido but the same techniques are taught in jujutsu. I teach the same techniques in Krav and Karate.

And just because you have missed it or deliberately misunderstood it the first two or three times I posted it ...

Originally Posted by K-man
The philosophy of Aikido is not to harm your opponent so, in that spirit, who is going to go off to learn Aikido, which takes years to learn, so they can fight in the ring? The simple answer is nobody so you are never likely to find Aikido represented in an MMA competition. If someone has the desire to fight and test themselves against others in the ring, they will go to learn a sport that is best suited to the competition they wish to compete in.

Rik Ellis does not represent Aikido in the ring. He is a mixed martial artist with an Aikido background.