Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Steve]

That is why good intentions are never alone and training to be practical involves having quality training with the high standards we do.

its not the intentions. It's the quality training and high standards that are relevant to this conversation. I'm glad you have them and I'm sure your schools are great. My points remain the same.

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[Steve]

Brian, I agree that there are good and bad mma and bjj schools.

Jks, I agree with everything you are saying. I assert that the challenges non sporting styles face are largely twofold. One is application of the skills. Most people just don't get mugged, get into fights or whatever else. The other is that often, because there is little or no opportunity for application, the instructors are not real experts, but may believe they are.


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[Hong Kong Pooey]

Regarding what difference the rules make, maybe you could ask Emin Boztepe why he wouldn't accept the Gracies' challenge to fight in the ring/cage, and ask the Gracies' why they wouldn't accept his counter challenge to fight him outside the ring/cage with no rules:

 

[Steve]

Regarding what difference the rules make, maybe you could ask Emin Boztepe why he wouldn't accept the Gracies' challenge to fight in the ring/cage, and ask the Gracies' why they wouldn't accept his counter challenge to fight him outside the ring/cage with no rules:

Come on. I couldn't get more than a minute into that video. That first segment was ridiculous.


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[Blindside]

But that training will not necessarily prepare you for real violence. Nobody gets ambushed in an MMA match. Rory Miller summarized real violence the best I've seen: Violence happens closer, faster, harder, and more surprisingly than people expect. (The exact quote is in my signature.) You don't fight someone two or three times your size, with vastly superior experience. Your adversary doesn't stop when you tap, and there's no ref to step in and rescue either fighter. There is one aspect of real violence that MMA training will prepare you for, though -- and that's actually being hit, and dealing with that. Of course, physical conditioning never hurts.

How well do you think that most TMAs are addressing fighting someone bigger, stronger, and with vastly superior experience? If the answer is "really well" then entering a ring with someone your same size, about equal strength, and of equivalent experience should be a piece of cake. Also, I don't think you would find someone who comes from a MMA background telling you that that size and skill doesn't matter.

I agree with the Rory Miller comments, but I don't think many TMAs are doing a great job addressing those aspects either.
The flip side of that is that many, maybe most TMAs aren't really addressing all of Rory Miller's issues either, AND they often don't deal with actually being hit. The MMA ring isn't a perfect analogy to the real world, no training is.

 

[Hanzou]

Regarding what difference the rules make, maybe you could ask Emin Boztepe why he wouldn't accept the Gracies' challenge to fight in the ring/cage, and ask the Gracies' why they wouldn't accept his counter challenge to fight him outside the ring/cage with no rules:

No offense to Sifu Boztpe, but I've seen him fight.

If I fought like that, I'd duck the Gracies too.

 

[Blindside]

Regarding what difference the rules make, maybe you could ask Emin Boztepe why he wouldn't accept the Gracies' challenge to fight in the ring/cage, and ask the Gracies' why they wouldn't accept his counter challenge to fight him outside the ring/cage with no rules:

See, WC has counter-grappling, it should do great in the ring.

And if we are going to cite Emin Boztepe, maybe we should figure out why in a fight against another WC master he chose to take the fight to the ground....

 

[Hanzou]

Come on. I couldn't get more than a minute into that video. That first segment was ridiculous.

Its even more ridiculous that he claims that no one can armbar or choke him. I'm sure he passes these crazy beliefs onto his students.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Come on. I couldn't get more than a minute into that video. That first segment was ridiculous.


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Apologies, he starts telling the story about 2 minutes in. But of course, it's only his version of events.

 

[Buka]

The term MMA, mixed martial arts, came into being shortly after the UFC became known. The original UFC contest, was first and foremost a business venture, but it used an age old question as it's foundation, "Who would win, a boxer or a wrestler?" This question has been bandied about in America since the early 1900's. There weren't any martial arts in our country back then, boxing was well established and pretty much the only game in town other than wrestling, but boxing was the only one being done professionally.

That first UFC was - which style is best? Not the best to train in or the best to meet someone's needs, but what was best if they "fought each other?" The only "mix" was mixing them together in some sort of competition. But, man, has that all changed. Mixed martial arts, today, is just that. It's an entity that incorporates a whole lot of things that were not too long ago completely separate. The days of any successful UFC fighter having trained in only one art are dead and gone.

If I were advising a young man that said he wanted to eventually go into MMA I'd tell him to make his base art BJJ or wrestling. I'd try to steer him more towards BJJ, but that would be on my personal preference rather than any tactical thinking on my part. Judo and Sambo might be a good base as well, but I've only had a cup of coffee in Judo and I've never actually been around Sambo. After using one of those arts as a base, these days, an MMA school would be the way to go next, IMO.

To me, the thing about grappling arts is this - they are based on close proximity fight training. That fight training offers immediate tactile feedback. More so than any of the standup arts I've worked with....except boxing, but boxing doesn't translate well to MMA at all. Boxing, wrestling and BJJ have sparring/rolling as a main component. You can't train any of those three without it. There are no boxing gyms, wrestling clubs or BJJ schools that do not spar on a regular/daily basis.
To me, that's what sets them apart as far as MMA skill sets are concerned. On a personal opinion, I think they make for better self defense skills, too. Again, as a personal opinion, BJJ is far more fun than the other two. It's not even close, either.

But, again, a good BJJ guy or a good wrestler, needs more training geared towards MMA that involves ground and pound, striking, transitions and cage work. You can not train for MMA without a cage. Some might think they can, but they are wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

Apologies, he starts telling the story about 2 minutes in. But of course, it's only his version of events.

The problem I have with guys like Boztpe is that they've never fought competitively, like ever. So while he may dislike the Gracie's business tactics, the Gracies DID put their style on the line for the entire world to see. All of the guys that Royce fought at UFC 1 and UFC 2 could have beaten the crap out of him on national television. You gotta respect that.

You can also find the letters between the two camps online and draw your own conclusions. However, given how Boztpe fought against William Cheung, and how I've seen all the Gracies fight (including Rorion), I find it hard to believe that the Gracies wouldn't accept the challenge from Boztpe, and try to avoid fighting him. It seems FAR more likely that Boztpe was the one looking to avoid a fight with press present.

This also goes back to Blindside's point about how competition validates fighting methods. I tend to believe the guys that don't shy away from a confrontation, versus a guy I've never seen step up to the plate except to ambush another Wing Chung exponent during a seminar.

 

[jks9199]

Brian, I agree that there are good and bad mma and bjj schools.

Jks, I agree with everything you are saying. I assert that the challenges non sporting styles face are largely twofold. One is application of the skills. Most people just don't get mugged, get into fights or whatever else. The other is that often, because there is little or no opportunity for application, the instructors are not real experts, but may believe they are.


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Very often, martial arts instructors are not experts in violence. They may not be experts in ring competition... Many are simply pretty much coaches feeding a curriculum that they absorbed. I don't have a problem with them -- until they paint themselves as "experts in violent self defense." I have the same issue with MMA programs that claim to be experts in self defense. I give the Gracies credit; when they put together a DT program to market to the police, they at least listened and changed a few things along the way when cops told them their ideas wouldn't work for someone a uniform with a gun belt & body armor. But a lot of these places, whether they be the latest street front day care martial arts or the baddest home of the ultimate MMA warriors -- they don't have a clue about the real world of violence. And they don't want to step out of their fantasy land to accept that.

Look, I"m not an "expert" in violence. I've seen a bit, inflicted some, done a few things, and studied a lot more. Yeah, I can stay calm and rational through a use of force situation, though I'm sure there are some that would dump me into full on panic as fast as anyone else. But recognizing that, knowing where I stand -- that puts me well into the land of "conscious incompetence", maybe even "conscious competence."

I"m fortunate; my art actually has a fully developed ground fighting subsystem. If I wanted to do MMA, and were about 20 or so years younger, I could do it within the system. (We've got a few guys doing that...) But, like I said, I'd have to train for it. Just like when I kickboxed, I did use the same principles of fighting that I practice regularly -- paired with appropriate conditioning, etc. The only difference between point fighting/middle style and full contact -- the way I was taught, teach, and practice -- is how hard you hit. All an MMA event does is add some weapons and ground fighting. Again -- I'd have to work to bring those skills up a bit, but they're there. If they weren't present -- I'd have to go out and find it somewhere else.

(Of course, there's another question that doesn't get asked... Why doesn't people sparring look like their training? What happened in the last 20 or 30 years ago or so that led to everyone thinking that there's training, sparring, middle-style, and full-contact, and they all look different... with no resemblance to the principles of their art?)

 

[jks9199]

How well do you think that most TMAs are addressing fighting someone bigger, stronger, and with vastly superior experience? If the answer is "really well" then entering a ring with someone your same size, about equal strength, and of equivalent experience should be a piece of cake. Also, I don't think you would find someone who comes from a MMA background telling you that that size and skill doesn't matter.

I agree with the Rory Miller comments, but I don't think many TMAs are doing a great job addressing those aspects either.
The flip side of that is that many, maybe most TMAs aren't really addressing all of Rory Miller's issues either, AND they often don't deal with actually being hit. The MMA ring isn't a perfect analogy to the real world, no training is.

Interestingly enough, I didn't say that they were. Most aren't, and most don't prepare a student for real violence.

But -- to me, often, the bottom line is simple: is the student getting what they want out of the program? Is the program lying to them? If the answer to the first is yes, and the second no -- then all is good.

 

[Steve]

Interestingly enough, I didn't say that they were. Most aren't, and most don't prepare a student for real violence.

But -- to me, often, the bottom line is simple: is the student getting what they want out of the program? Is the program lying to them? If the answer to the first is yes, and the second no -- then all is good.

There's the rub. I drink pretty cheap wine because I lack the skills to discern quality above a certain point. If you gave me $30 wine and told me it's $300 wine, I'd really have no choice but to take your word for it. But you could be a charlatan. Or not... You could also be a sincere and convincing incompetent. Until there's some external feedback, you may never know.

The time to learn that your practical self defense instructor is an affable incompetent is likely to be after you need the skills. The stakes in a parks and rec wine tasting class are a little lower than for self defense, if that's what you're looking for.

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[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is a TMA guy Yao Honggang fight in MMA - Jul 28, 2014

 

[Hanzou]

(Of course, there's another question that doesn't get asked... Why doesn't people sparring look like their training? What happened in the last 20 or 30 years ago or so that led to everyone thinking that there's training, sparring, middle-style, and full-contact, and they all look different... with no resemblance to the principles of their art?)

One of the reasons I switched to Bjj from Karate was because the Bjj fought like they sparred.

 

[K-man]

Actually if you read my posts, it completely revolves around training methods, and it only got to that point because no one was willing to give an answer that made sense.

The gist of what I'm getting from traditional stylists is that they're forced to crosstrain into a submission grappling style because submission grappling has an advantage over everything else in a ringed environment. However no one is really willing to explain what that advantage is exactly.

Saying that the canvas is level, or that there's walls in a cage, or that you can't hit someone in the balls really doesn't hold much weight. All of those factors could also exist "in the streets".

Is that right? I would have thought it is more that you will not accept the answers that you have been given. As a result the answers don't make sense to you because either they are not the answers you want to hear or you are unable to comprehend plain English.

You have not been able to define 'traditional' so 'traditional stylist' is just as vague, but it makes sense that anyone who wants to compete in MMA needs to be competent in all areas of that competition and that includes advanced grappling skills. If you can't understand that there are rules in an MMA match that make competition different to a NHB confrontation on the street, then I can't help you. Perhaps you should read JKS' post on the previous page.

No offense to Sifu Boztpe, but I've seen him fight.

If I fought like that, I'd duck the Gracies too.

Ignorance of the facts. William Cheung had issued a challenge and Emin Boztepe took him up on it in William Cheung's own school. It was a messy scrap and Boztepe learned from it. He changed his training to address the inadequacies of his skill set. To use that tape as evidence of Boztepe's fighting ability is ridiculous. I have issues with a lot of WC but Boztepe's is the best I have seen. I would have thought you might have been a fan of his philosophy
...

Though he has trained in many different Martial Art disciplines, Master Emin Boztepe currently bases his self defense solely on Wing Tzun Kung Fu and Latosa Escrima. He feels this helps him fulfill his philosophy of ending conflicts quickly by using effective and simple techniques. These sort of techniques are the hallmark of Wing Tzun. Master Emin states, "I only believe in using techniques that work as fast as possible and minimize injury to myself."


The Wing Tzun philosophy also advocates realistic training. Master Emin feels that this is one of the most important factors in developing effective self defenc techniques. Although Master Emin believes in other forms of training such as bag-training, aerobics etc. he feels that nothing can take the place of sparring and Wing Tzun Chi Sau practice with a live partner, as well as Anti-Grappling which he officially created according to the scientific beliefs of the Wing Tzun System.
Master Emin emphasizes that training should become a regular routine for any serious Martial Artist. "You can have the best techniques and the best Instructors, but if you don't practice regularly and realistically it will not be useful."
Master Emin Boztepe

I don't believe "he ducked the Gracies". I believe the Gracies tried to use him the way they used other well known people in the early days of the UFC.

 

[Hanzou]

Ignorance of the facts. William Cheung had issued a challenge and Emin Boztepe took him up on it in William Cheung's own school. It was a messy scrap and Boztepe learned from it. He changed his training to address the inadequacies of his skill set. To use that tape as evidence of Boztepe's fighting ability is ridiculous. I have issues with a lot of WC but Boztepe's is the best I have seen. I would have thought you might have been a fan of his philosophy

To be fair, I used that fight with Cheung, as well as that laughable demonstration of ground techniques in the beginning of the linked video as evidence of his fighting ability.

I don't believe "he ducked the Gracies". I believe the Gracies tried to use him the way they used other well known people in the early days of the UFC.

Interesting perspective. How do you think they "used him"? Ken Shamrock, Mark Coleman, and others who did well in the early UFCs went on to have very lucrative MA careers. If Boztepe had competed and did well, he would have done even better, since he was using a Kung Fu style.

 

[K-man]

Interesting perspective. How do you think they "used him"? Ken Shamrock, Mark Coleman, and others who did well in the early UFCs went on to have very lucrative MA careers. If Boztepe had competed and did well, he would have done even better, since he was using a Kung Fu style.

Again you didn't read what I wrote. They didn't use him, they attempted to use him in the same way they used other well known fighters in the early stages to promote their style and their competition. Sure some guys did well out of it but most didn't. They took the money and the Gracies built their brand. I've not suggesting they did anything wrong. It was brilliant marketing. But to bag Boztepe because he didn't want to be part of it is wrong. He knew what they were doing and recognised that there was little if any upside in it for him.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Who else did the Gracie's issue challenges to early on? We know Boztepe, Tyson, Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, who else? It was brilliant marketing!