What is your highest tested belt rank?

[Brandon Fisher]

Never heard about this outfit until I just read about it here.

Are they in fact selling rank - as I have seen done elsewhere - or are they merely giving you a wall paper membership certificate based upon what somebody claims to already be? While many would not view that as kosher, either, to me it is a much lesser sin.

I personally presented my resume and a copy of my current rank certifications when I signed up originally a year ago and there was no membership fee which was nice.

 

[exile]

The most common are broken noses and ribs. We do, however, have an occasional broken hand or arm. We have even had a couple of ACL tears during testing. Yes, they are most common during the sparring portion, but there has been a few that had cracked ribs during Niseishi testing(very similar to Sanchin testing) from the use of a shinai. This is common in the Chito-ryu school, not very common in the TKD school. The TKD school has mostly bruises and a few cuts. TKD is not quite as brutal, as far as injuries go. I actually go to the "brutal" school just for some training and for tests. I have tried to keep injuries to a minimum at my own school. I do have those 18-36 YO guys that always want to try and kill each other, but they are all a bunch of freaks.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks for the info, Jon. Some of the TKD people I know here would love to be able to inflict bone breaks on each other during sparring, but it's a different kind of sparring—controlled structured streetfight training, nothing at all like WTF competition—so it's probably not comparable to what most TKD dojangs do.

Noses and ribs heal, or can be put right. Joints, well, that's another story...

It's useful to be reminded, from time to time, that when you train MA, you're training for combat, and you can get hurt in combat, and the more effective your training, the greater the odds of getting hurt. People tend to forget this.

 

[searcher]

controlled structured streetfight training, nothing at all like WTF competition—so it's probably not comparable to what most TKD dojangs do.

Noses and ribs heal, or can be put right. Joints, well, that's another story....

I don't train WTF, but my cousin does. We are a more traditional TKD school.


I hear ya on the bones vs. joints. I have seen some things get pretty crazy and I am glad that nothing more has happened. In the Chito-ryu school My Wife had to fight for her life during the entire duration of her BB test. We eventually decided it was best for us to go our own way. The only drawback is that I still have to go there for the training and testing I mentioned in earlier posts. That particular instructor is constantly trying to get his prize lackys to try and knock me out. I am just glad I train as hard as I do. It makes for an interesting time.

 

[MasterWright]

I had to wait 3 years from third dan to be eligible to test for my fourth, My third dan was submitted two months early (22 months)and was rejected, I didn't see that one for another 7 months.

Perhaps your Master was able to have it forced from the Kukkiwon .

Master Wright-Guelph Olympic Taekwondo
Ontario Canada

 

[exile]

I don't train WTF, but my cousin does. We are a more traditional TKD school.


I hear ya on the bones vs. joints. I have seen some things get pretty crazy and I am glad that nothing more has happened. In the Chito-ryu school My Wife had to fight for her life during the entire duration of her BB test. We eventually decided it was best for us to go our own way. The only drawback is that I still have to go there for the training and testing I mentioned in earlier posts. That particular instructor is constantly trying to get his prize lackys to try and knock me out. I am just glad I train as hard as I do. It makes for an interesting time.

Hmmmm... something sounds wrong there, searcher... why the deliberate effort to hurt you? Sounds like some personal vendetta on that instructor's part, or some macho posturing—you know what I'm talking about, `Cobra Kai' sort of thing.

I view that as really unethical and unprofessional. Who needs to have a time that's as `interesting' as that? I've no problem at all with very hard-edged realistic training, where instead of tori and uke you have street assailant and defender, and you train hard effective oyo based on bunkai which take into account instinctive reactions and assume a totally noncompliant adversary—to me, that's what SD is all about. But what you're describing sounds very different from that... there's an element malice there, methinks.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Going back to the original topic, this thread reminded me of a website that I had visited before. There is a group called the United States Martial Arts Association and they have a black belt registry on their site that lists dozens of individuals as having multiple tenth dans. I saw a few on there with tenth degrees in over ten seperate systems. All right everybody, let's all sing this to the "Barney theme song" ...."I promote you, you promote me, we're all fat and happy 10th degrees...". OK, second chorus, only the 10th dans under thirty years old sing.

In fairness, I have seen some well known and respected martial artists listed on this registry, but this is almost as bad as the diploma mill that issued a fifth dan to a dog.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

USMA is ok they do have some things that make you scratch your head but when you talk to the head of the organization he does not himself promote people that don't deserve the rank. In fact he told me I could claim 10th dan because I founded my system but he did not recomend it and suggested only 6th dan which was my next rank. This is based solely on my time in the arts, the things I have done and my experience.

The bad thing is that these organizations require you to present your resume and copies of your rank certificates before they issue anything, but whose to say the applicant didn't falsify their resume. I know of people of done this and get away with it because there is no way of proving otherwise.

USMA
EUSAIMAA
AKIA
ICMAU
USKA
PKC

All these organizations have rank reognition but whos to say they always get 100% honest resumes. Personally I could care less what someone else does, if they can be dishonest and live with themselves fine but I can't.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In fairness, I have seen some well known and respected martial artists listed on this registry, but this is almost as bad as the diploma mill that issued a fifth dan to a dog.

Sometimes they approach a family member of a respected Martial Artist to add to their list. This makes the family think they are doing something nice for the person and they get them on their list to help legitimize them and their actions.

 

[Blindside]

Going back to the original topic, this thread reminded me of a website that I had visited before. There is a group called the United States Martial Arts Association and they have a black belt registry on their site that lists dozens of individuals as having multiple tenth dans. I saw a few on there with tenth degrees in over ten seperate systems. All right everybody, let's all sing this to the "Barney theme song" ...."I promote you, you promote me, we're all fat and happy 10th degrees...". OK, second chorus, only the 10th dans under thirty years old sing.

I had to check, but they are still issuing or "recognizing" black belts in boxing. And the funny thing is I don't recognize any of those guys named (6th degree in boxing) as winning, well, anything.

Complete BS.

Lamont

 

[Haze]

I am a member of the United States Martial Arts Association. I accepted rank recognition from them as Shodan.

They then "evaluated my situation" and said that seeing that I had not formally tested in several years that they could promote me to Nidan and back date it so that I would immediatly qualify for Sandan and possibly even Yondan and all I had to do was come up with the registration fees of roughly $450. All promotions were to based on time in grade so back dating would get me up to where I should be.

Sounded like a money maker to me. So I am a lifetime member but have not accepted any promotion in rank from them.

I am also a member of
Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate Do Goshinkai (rank tested for and recieved Shodan under Shihan Frank Van Lentten)
ISOK - International Society of Okinawan/Japanese Karate (recognized as shodan)
WMAA - World Martial Artists Association (hold no rank with them)

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Yeah I didn't back date anything on karate background. My 6th dan (Seijitsu Shin Do) was as of 1/1/07. I don't agree wiht back dating but there was rank I never recieved because the instructor I had claimed one thing but never issued rank in it namly Ju Jitsu which I began in '84 but never recieved formal ranking in it. So my rank I got from USMA is Nidan after 22 years of practicing Ju Jitsu.

I went and looked at the registry also and didn't understand the Boxing thing either.

 

[searcher]

Hmmmm... something sounds wrong there, searcher... why the deliberate effort to hurt you? Sounds like some personal vendetta on that instructor's part, or some macho posturing—you know what I'm talking about, `Cobra Kai' sort of thing.

I view that as really unethical and unprofessional. Who needs to have a time that's as `interesting' as that? I've no problem at all with very hard-edged realistic training, where instead of tori and uke you have street assailant and defender, and you train hard effective oyo based on bunkai which take into account instinctive reactions and assume a totally noncompliant adversary—to me, that's what SD is all about. But what you're describing sounds very different from that... there's an element malice there, methinks.

I could not agree more with you on the unethical and very unprofessional. He def. has some issue with me that are from something I can't figure out. I know that I don't fit his idea of what a MAist should be and now that I am out on my own it seems to have become worse. I know that back in the early 90's when the UFC was getting started he had soem problem with the training that I received as a kid from my dad. Whatever the problem, it is never boring when I go in to train.

 

[exile]

Whatever the problem, it is never boring when I go in to train.

That kind of excitement, no one needs. Searcher, maybe you should be looking for a new dojo... you and yours don't need that kind of crap. Just my two cents' worth, but I hate it when people get abused because of other people's personality defects....

 

[James Kovacich]

Rank is a tricky subject when it comes down to there are many martial artists out there that have many years training, even over 20 years and never received a black belt. Some of them are teaching and want to be recognized. I don't think that they should have to start over in a new school, learning a new system when what they really need is support and guidance.

Then theres the 1 & 2 year black belts that are not likely to have the skill level as those that bounced around between schools with a lot of time in.

My wifes uncles 1st degree black belt in Kenpo and Eskrima (in 1977) came from West Valley Karate. How does one authenticate that his cert is legit? I can tell you that he told me his instructor only promoted him to 1st degree (with 9 years TIG) because his instructor was only a 2nd degree Kenpo and Guro in Eskrima and on his own at that time.

His instructor Ray Subega was a student of Sam Brown in Kenpo and they were both students of Ralph Castellanos. Ralph is nearly impossible to trace his students and Ray is not listed under Sam Brown on the Kenpo family tree. Ray is one of the earliest instructors promoted by Mike Inay in Inayan Eskrima back in the '70's.

My wifes uncle was also Mikes student but was promoted by Ray. That makes him technically 2nd gen instructor under Mike but won't appear on the Inayan tree.

Many experienced martial artists slip through the cracks. There is a need for professional organizations that offer support but the "hollow federations" seem to be running rampant and making a bad name for "all," even the good orgs.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been covered. Until a year ago, I had never heard that one could receive advanced BB rank (legitimatly)without testing for it. I'd heard of the "magic plane" where you board it one rank & depart another (higher) rank, however.

Before I started my TKD school last year, I trained w/ & helped teach in a karate program under a 7th Dan. When I told him of my desire to test for my 3rd Dan in TKD he looked at me & said, "You've got a great atititude, are a good teacher & you have solid skills, I'll give a 3rd Dan." He wasn't kidding! I thanked him, but declined. I knew little about his art. It didn't seem right to me.

A few moths ago, he stopped teaching his class & gave it over to his 3rd Dan assistant. Before he left, he made him a 4th Dan. No test, no cert., nothing. The 7th Dan has zero respect for this guy, but he thought it only fair that he give him the rank when he gave him the class.

I'd never run across promotion like that before. My experience has always been that I need to test for what I receive. I realize this situation is out of the norm, & that most folks test for their rank.

 

[Blindside]

Iceman,

When I did BJJ (at least at our school) there wasn't a test, when your instructor thought you were ready he said "here put this on." Of course in BJJ it is pretty easy to gauge your level, if you can hang with the blues you should be a blue and so on.

Testing in a large group is only necessary if there is a big disconnect between student and instructor. I can see the need if you are learning over a distance, but if you are out on the mats regularly under an instuructor, he/she should know what you've got.

Lamont

 

[IcemanSK]

Iceman,

When I did BJJ (at least at our school) there wasn't a test, when your instructor thought you were ready he said "here put this on." Of course in BJJ it is pretty easy to gauge your level, if you can hang with the blues you should be a blue and so on.

Testing in a large group is only necessary if there is a big disconnect between student and instructor. I can see the need if you are learning over a distance, but if you are out on the mats regularly under an instuructor, he/she should know what you've got.

Lamont

I understand what you're saying, & I can agree if an instructor is that in tuned with his students. This was a case of an instructor wanting to retire & not set his students a drift. With this particular guy,(new 4th Dan) I've known him for nearly 2 years & I've yet to see him take his thumbs out of his belt to demonstrate anything to his students. When his instructor taught forms (by demonstrating them) this guy didn't participate. He just stood there w/ his thumbs in his belt. He wouldn't even correct students' form. He comes pulls up in full uniform & drives home the same way. But never breaks a sweat. The 7th Dan worked his butt off teaching!

It should be in an instructor's manual under, "how not to teach." IMO

 

[tradrockrat]

So I guess that the main point we're all agreeing with is that rank doesn't
necessarily translate to skill or ability and that many of us have trained to some level of proficiency without any rank at all.

So if this is the case (and I most certainly agree it is), has ranking become irrelevant in todays world?

 

[IcemanSK]

So I guess that the main point we're all agreeing with is that rank doesn't
necessarily translate to skill or ability and that many of us have trained to some level of proficiency without any rank at all.

So if this is the case (and I most certainly agree it is), has ranking become irrelevant in todays world?

I think rank should be put in it's proper context. It denotes time in & attention to an art. Sadly, we've made it mostly about skill level. If I may translate to another fighting style for a minute (I think it translates well). Eddy Futch was a great boxing trainer well into his 80's. Could he fight at 80 like he could when he was young? Of course not. But he had tons of knowledge & the ability to impart it well. His protege' Freddy Roach is a young man (40's) & was a very tough fighter in his day. He now has Parkinson's syndrome (like Ali) but he too is a great trainer. If there were belts in boxing, they would both be masters.

Not all trainers w/ that amount of experience are/were that good. Heck, a lot of fighters (of many fighting sports) can't impart the wisdom they possess. But the time & attention they give to their craft should result in some recognition.

If we look at it that way for MA, it puts belt rank in prospective. IMO

 

[Fluffy]

I'm a 5th Dan, tested for it in front of Grand Master Jack Pierce (Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do), Grand Master Andy Apho (Tang Soo Do) and Grand Master Clint Robinson (Taekwondo)