Belt Testing advice

[Gerry Seymour]

well 2 weeks aint bad at all. in Japanese Goju-ryu a kyu rank only happens once or twice a year. students would have to wait until the next test. for black belt from what i am told only the head of the organization gives those so you would have to fly out to California again in a year or two to try again.

Yeah, that's where it becomes less problematic to be that picky. We could test at almost any time - usually took about a week or so to schedule it, and if you failed, you were required to wait at least 2 weeks (longer at higher ranks, IIRC) before re-testing. At brown and black belt, the possibility of "rechecks" showed up. So, if you didn't pass as well as you should have (so, the technique wasn't at BB level), but didn't actually fail it, you'd just get a re-check on that technique. Too many re-checks would also fail.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This was one of the biggest issues for me, for a while, and part of the reason it took me over a decade to get to black belt. I knew (and still know) all the techniques from my original art, up to black, which is probably 75+ separate techniques not including forms. My issue is that then we also needed to know which techniques were for which belt, and what order they were for that belt. I just flat out could not remember the order, especially since I learned many of them out of order to begin with. So you could ask me to perform a technique, any technique, and I would do it better than some of the black belts (whom had been training half as long as me), but then you say "perform brown belt 1 kempo 3" and I'd just give a blank stare and start laughing that you want me to remember what that is.

Yeah, that would be tough. I created mnemonics to remember the 5 Classical sets (1st set: "Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage."). My wife remembered them by how many had primary involvement by body part. Even with mnemonics, it's not entirely easy (4 techniques start with S in the 5th set, 2 in the 4th, and easy to confuse between them). The question eventually becomes whether the benefit of the added task of memorization is worth it, if it causes some folks to have trouble passing. The way I learned them, it was fairly easy, because we learned them almost entirely by set. The way I teach them is somewhat divorced of the sets, and probably becoming more so the next update I do. That might make it less useful to have folks try to memorize all that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What you describe is perhaps in a specific Goju-ryu organization but it wouldn't apply to all Goju-ryu dojos. I am training in Goju-ryu right now and from my experience it takes about four months to get a belt. Right now I am a yellow belt which comes right after white and my instructor said I might be testing for orange in January. As for higher kyu ranks or going from 1st kyu to 1st dan I suppose it might take longer to advance although I don't know of the specifics yet.

Interesting. I think I'd heard the once-a-year thing about Goju before, but I might be mixing it with a discussion of another style (perhaps an entirely different art, for that matter).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yup. I wasn't complaining or saying it's unfair, just relaying an experience, about why it took me so long. If the belt was important to me I would have spent more time figuring out the order, but I'd rather spend my time working on the techniques themselves. So I spent a couple years not testing.

I suspect my experience at my first test contributed to my long stays at each subsequent rank. By the time I tested, remembering each new set was a non-issue.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I suspect my experience at my first test contributed to my long stays at each subsequent rank. By the time I tested, remembering each new set was a non-issue.

We had a similar issue earlier but I think there' two additional things that made it tough for me. The first is everything was numbered, without names so no chance of mnemonics, just had to memorize color, type and number. The second is i started off in the kids class, and they learn things in a different order. So I couldn't remember things how I learned them. I had to figure out where everything I already knew fell into place.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Interesting. I think I'd heard the once-a-year thing about Goju before, but I might be mixing it with a discussion of another style (perhaps an entirely different art, for that matter).

Even within styles there is tons of variance on how its taught and what the standards of the instructors are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We had a similar issue earlier but I think there' two additional things that made it tough for me. The first is everything was numbered, without names so no chance of mnemonics, just had to memorize color, type and number. The second is i started off in the kids class, and they learn things in a different order. So I couldn't remember things how I learned them. I had to figure out where everything I already knew fell into place.

Yeah, I can see how both of those would complicate things. I need to find someone who started NGA in kids' classes and see if they experienced that, since the scattering of techniques they cover aren't in the same order as in the adult curriculum.

As for not having names, that's just sadistic, man.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, I can see how both of those would complicate things. I need to find someone who started NGA in kids' classes and see if they experienced that, since the scattering of techniques they cover aren't in the same order as in the adult curriculum.

As for not having names, that's just sadistic, man.

Honestly I found it funny. My senseis knew the issues I had with it, so when I started laughing when they asked for a technique it was no big deal.

But I would not be surprised if people in your kids classes have the same issue, if you should learn things set by set. Definitely adds to confusion, unless they still progress differently once they switch.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yup. I wasn't complaining or saying it's unfair, just relaying an experience, about why it took me so long. If the belt was important to me I would have spent more time figuring out the order, but I'd rather spend my time working on the techniques themselves. So I spent a couple years not testing.

Well the way you describe it, for rank advancement your instructor required not only that you're able to perform the techniques themselves proficiently but to also name them and to know what belt they were for and the order they were in. The reason why I like to focus on meeting the instructor's standards for rank advancement is because by working to meet his standards that way Im developing the art the way he has it structured. The instructor has the standards he has for a reason. You say the belt wasn't important to you, earning rank is not about coming into possession of a belt of a certain color or putting on a belt of a certain color its about meeting standards set by your instructor. I would want to develop the art the way my instructor has it structured, not in my own way, because I've put my time and trust into the instructor so Im going to develop the art his way and I do that by working to meet his standards for rank advancement.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well the way you describe it, for rank advancement your instructor required not only that you're able to perform the techniques themselves proficiently but to also name them and to know what belt they were for and the order they were in. The reason why I like to focus on meeting the instructor's standards for rank advancement is because by working to meet his standards that way Im developing the art the way he has it structured. The instructor has the standards he has for a reason. You say the belt wasn't important to you, earning rank is not about coming into possession of a belt of a certain color or putting on a belt of a certain color its about meeting standards set by your instructor. I would want to develop the art the way my instructor has it structured, not in my own way, because I've put my time and trust into the instructor so Im going to develop the art his way and I do that by working to meet his standards for rank advancement.

How am I not developing in the way my instructor wants me to? The requirement is, in order to advance I had to memorize the order of material, and their numbers. I did not memorize them, so I did not advance. Instead I improved my techniques and spent years refining them, rather than learn anything new. That's well within their guidelines as, again, the requirement is "to advance I had to learn the order", not "to practice I had to learn the order". If any of them felt like I was not developing the art properly they would have told me that themselves.

 

[PhotonGuy]

How am I not developing in the way my instructor wants me to? The requirement is, in order to advance I had to memorize the order of material, and their numbers. I did not memorize them, so I did not advance. Instead I improved my techniques and spent years refining them, rather than learn anything new. That's well within their guidelines as, again, the requirement is "to advance I had to learn the order", not "to practice I had to learn the order". If any of them felt like I was not developing the art properly they would have told me that themselves.

I've never been to your school and I certainly wasn't there when you were there so as far as you developing the art the way your instructors wanted you to, I wouldn't know. All I know is that if I train under an instructor that I focus on the requirements he has for promotion which judging from your previous posts, included memorizing the techniques and their order and number and level in addition to improving upon them and refining them. In my BJJ class the requirements for rank advancement are to come to class, focus on what's being taught, and to train hard. And there's a minimum length of time you have to be at your current rank before you can advance further. Why I like to work on fulfilling the instructor's requirements for rank advancement is because whatever his requirements are he has them for a reason. I might not understand why he requires certain stuff but he's the instructor and therefore he has the experience and he knows what he's doing and so I work on fulfilling his requirements.

 

[Headhunter]

Well the way you describe it, for rank advancement your instructor required not only that you're able to perform the techniques themselves proficiently but to also name them and to know what belt they were for and the order they were in. The reason why I like to focus on meeting the instructor's standards for rank advancement is because by working to meet his standards that way Im developing the art the way he has it structured. The instructor has the standards he has for a reason. You say the belt wasn't important to you, earning rank is not about coming into possession of a belt of a certain color or putting on a belt of a certain color its about meeting standards set by your instructor. I would want to develop the art the way my instructor has it structured, not in my own way, because I've put my time and trust into the instructor so Im going to develop the art his way and I do that by working to meet his standards for rank advancement.

Personally I couldn't care less about meeting an instructors standards all I care about is meeting my own standards. I train for myself not for anyone else.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've never been to your school and I certainly wasn't there when you were there so as far as you developing the art the way your instructors wanted you to, I wouldn't know. All I know is that if I train under an instructor that I focus on the requirements he has for promotion which judging from your previous posts, included memorizing the techniques and their order and number and level in addition to improving upon them and refining them. In my BJJ class the requirements for rank advancement are to come to class, focus on what's being taught, and to train hard. And there's a minimum length of time you have to be at your current rank before you can advance further. Why I like to work on fulfilling the instructor's requirements for rank advancement is because whatever his requirements are he has them for a reason. I might not understand why he requires certain stuff but he's the instructor and therefore he has the experience and he knows what he's doing and so I work on fulfilling his requirements.

My response is basically word for word @Headhunter's.

 

[Headhunter]

My response is basically word for word @Headhunter's.

I know how I word it sounds selfish...but at the end of the day martial arts is selfish...it's not a team activity you're there for yourself. Not for the others not for the instructor for me...to many get caught up with doing it fr their teacher and frankly I think some people have a very unhealthy attitude and dedication to their instructor...like you're grown adults and they'd jump to attention if they snap their fingers and follow them around like lost puppies. I've never been that way. I respect all my instructors for their skills and listen to their lessons but im my own person, they're human just like me and they're no better than me as people just because of some tape on their belts

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I know how I word it sounds selfish...but at the end of the day martial arts is selfish...it's not a team activity you're there for yourself. Not for the others not for the instructor for me...to many get caught up with doing it fr their teacher and frankly I think some people have a very unhealthy attitude and dedication to their instructor...like you're grown adults and they'd jump to attention if they snap their fingers and follow them around like lost puppies. I've never been that way. I respect all my instructors for their skills and listen to their lessons but im my own person, they're human just like me and they're no better than me as people just because of some tape on their belts

Absolutely agree. I'm paying them to get a service. If I'm getting a service, it's not up to them to decide when/how I'm satisfied with that service, it's up to me to get what I want out of it. Which isn't always what the instructor wants from me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Absolutely agree. I'm paying them to get a service. If I'm getting a service, it's not up to them to decide when/how I'm satisfied with that service, it's up to me to get what I want out of it. Which isn't always what the instructor wants from me.

The only temper to that is the needs of the other students.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The only temper to that is the needs of the other students.

True. But in general I don't think not focusing on rank can hurt the other students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True. But in general I don't think not focusing on rank can hurt the other students.

I agree. In most cases, that will have no real effect on others. My view is that the student should be there for what they want. If that REALLY doesn't align with the instructor's goals and approach, they're at the wrong school.

The only way I can think of off-hand that a person's approach (and not bothering with rank requirements) might matter to others would be something like terminology. If someone joined my program and didn't bother to learn (and use) the terminology we use - on the premise that terminology doesn't change their ability - that would almost certainly have a detrimental effect on those they train with. It would add confusion and leave more room for miscommunication. It would also probably hold them back in their development, since they wouldn't actually get the full teaching if they don't know the terms used. That example is probably a bit of a stretch, though.

 

[Headhunter]

Absolutely agree. I'm paying them to get a service. If I'm getting a service, it's not up to them to decide when/how I'm satisfied with that service, it's up to me to get what I want out of it. Which isn't always what the instructor wants from me.

Yeah I mean I see guys in their 40s who are married and have kids creeping around their instructors like they're god jumping to every command even outside the school...to me that's just pretty weird like your an adult have some self respect. As I say I like my instructors and respect them but if they try and tell how to live my life outside the class ill tell them where to go....which I've pretty much done with my old one

 

[PhotonGuy]

Personally I couldn't care less about meeting an instructors standards all I care about is meeting my own standards. I train for myself not for anyone else.

In the long run you're right in that eventually you do develop your martial arts in your own way and you work on meeting your own standards but the roots come from your instructor, at least that's my experience. If you focus on only meeting your own standards and throw your instructor's standards out the window on day one, first of all some instructors won't like that. Second of all you might not learn more advanced material. In some dojos you have to reach certain ranks to learn more advanced material but even if you're training at a dojo that does not require rank advancement to learn more material they will most likely at least require a certain level of proficiency in the current material that you've been taught before they teach you more advanced stuff. As to how much proficiency is required that depends on your instructor's standards and that's why it might be necessary to work on meeting your instructor's standards, not your own, if you want to learn more advanced material.

You train for yourself and not anyone else, that's your choice. People train for all different reasons and they've got all different sorts of goals and motivations for training. As for me, when I do select a martial art to train in I work on meeting my instructor's standards at least until making 1st dan, then I work more on developing the art my own way, as I've done with my primary art. But that's just me. Everybody has their own reasons for training and their own ways for going about doing it.