What is your highest tested belt rank?

[Brandon Fisher]

On average lets say this

3 years to 1st dan
2 years to 2nd Dan
3 years to 3rd dan
4 years to 4th Dan
5 Years to 5th Dan
6 years to 6th Dan (23 Years to 6th Dan)
7 years to 7th Dan
8 Years To 8th Dan
9 Years to 9th Dan
10 Years to 10th Dan

57 Years to 10th dan

But the most common practice from what I have seen is:
3 years to 1st Dan
2 Years to 2nd Dan
2 Years to 3rd Dan
3 Years to 4th Dan
4 years to 5th Dan
5 Years to 6th Dan
6 Years to 7th Dan
7 Years to 8th Dan
8 Years to 9th Dan
9 years to 10th Dan
49 Years to 10th Dan
Note the red mark where I am personally at in my training.

This assumes of course the person stays active in their training and teaching and does not retire. Also that they have been able to train others to a rather high level of profiency over their career.

Does anyone disagree with this? If so why?

 

[searcher]

Searcher, maybe you should be looking for a new dojo... you and yours don't need that kind of crap.

I have been teaching on my own for over 10 years and I have been training in TKD for the past few years. I have recently decided to go back to training in EPAK. Problem is that I will only be able to work my TKD on my own due to class conflict. My Wife now trains in Tai Chi and has dabled in other CMAs. So we are good.

 

[Carol]

Hey Brandon, I just wanted to first give you a BIG congratulations to your 6th Dan promotion!

This assumes of course the person stays active in their training and teaching and does not retire. Also that they have been able to train others to a rather high level of profiency over their career.

Does anyone disagree with this? If so why?

I don't think it is just staying active in a system is enough for a dan promotion. In many ways that is not progress, that is stagnancy.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I agree with Carol, there are many systems in which time in grade seems to be the main factor, especially after a certain level(usually 5th dan). I agree that it (time) should be a minimum requirement, but the next level should require the candidate to grow and improve as part of the process.

BTW, the time in grade for our schools are very similar to Brandon's, except we require 4 years for 1st and 6 years between 4th-
5th and 5th and 6th (minimum time of training at least 3x/week plus teaching requirements).

 

[exile]

I have been teaching on my own for over 10 years and I have been training in TKD for the past few years. I have recently decided to go back to training in EPAK. Problem is that I will only be able to work my TKD on my own due to class conflict. My Wife now trains in Tai Chi and has dabled in other CMAs. So we are good.

Glad to hear that. BTW, I'm interested in any impressions you might have about the similarities and differences between EPAK on the one hand and TKD on the other. I've always wondered about that, but very few people seem to cross-train between the two...

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Hey Brandon, I just wanted to first give you a BIG congratulations to your 6th Dan promotion!



I don't think it is just staying active in a system is enough for a dan promotion. In many ways that is not progress, that is stagnancy.

First thank you I appreciate that.

Ok now let me clarify what I meant by active I was quite tired last night when I got home from the dojo. I feel that active doesn't mean just training and teaching. I think it needs to take in consideration the special things you do. For example I have taught at the Cleveland Sight Center for visually impaired and totally blind adults, I have taught at the local JCC working people iwth autism (spelling), and other mental disabilities. I have worked with hearing impaired and learned disabled students all throughout my career. I have given free common sense self defense courses at Ohio Northern University. I have also taught various seminars at internaitonal gatherings and various other dojos. These are things that help in promotion your dedication to the arts not just your art but the art. I agree 100% on growth and improvment with Kwan Jang. That is essential at all levels in my opinion.

I hope that helps describe better what I meant.

Now that I clarified please add your opinion?

 

[IcemanSK]

I agree with Carol that time shouldn't be the only factor. Growth is a vital part of what should be included in anyone's desire to attain higher rank.


Congrats to you, Brandon! Well deserved, sir!

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I agree with Carol that time shouldn't be the only factor. Growth is a vital part of what should be included in anyone's desire to attain higher rank.


Congrats to you, Brandon! Well deserved, sir!

Thank you!!

I guess I am just assuming people further their knowledge & training but I know that isn't always the case.

 

[Sempai Jamie]

In my opinion the most important rank is white belt, because you need the courage to start something new. Which is often harder then it sounds.

As for testing all my students tests are based on how much they want the their next belt level. I see them every class and I know when they are ready for their next belt, but if I didn't work them hard in a belt test they wouldn't have the same appreciation / since of accomplishment.

As for Dan rankings I'm not sure that a test IS needed each time. When you start talking years between gradings and levels that may not even have syllabus to them, keeping active in the style is probably enough of a test.

As for my level, I'm currently a brown belt in Jiu-jitsu and my brown belt test was 2.5 hour long and I grappled for over an hour for it.

Jamie

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Jamie,
Good thoughts on the white belt. Sounds like you have thought it out well. Also glad to hear you worked so hard for the rank. It does make it that much sweeter.

 

[James Kovacich]

On average lets say this

3 years to 1st dan
2 years to 2nd Dan
3 years to 3rd dan
4 years to 4th Dan
5 Years to 5th Dan
6 years to 6th Dan (23 Years to 6th Dan)
7 years to 7th Dan
8 Years To 8th Dan
9 Years to 9th Dan
10 Years to 10th Dan

57 Years to 10th dan

But the most common practice from what I have seen is:
3 years to 1st Dan
2 Years to 2nd Dan
2 Years to 3rd Dan
3 Years to 4th Dan
4 years to 5th Dan
5 Years to 6th Dan
6 Years to 7th Dan
7 Years to 8th Dan
8 Years to 9th Dan
9 years to 10th Dan
49 Years to 10th Dan
Note the red mark where I am personally at in my training.

This assumes of course the person stays active in their training and teaching and does not retire. Also that they have been able to train others to a rather high level of profiency over their career.

Does anyone disagree with this? If so why?

So you have 23 years in? 10th dan is almost inpossible. What rank is your headmaster and how many years in does he have?

Overall, I think that is average but rank and belts are a relaitively new concept not more than 100 + or - years old given Kano created Judo and was the first to use the belt system. Funokoshi was a Master I think around the age of 20 and "recognized" by a Kendo organization.

What was the rank and TIG for Ryu Ryu Ko and Kanryo Higaonna? And what were the ranks and TIG for Shinjo Choken and Tode Sakugawa? They were all the foremost authorities of nearly all Karate and some will argue all.

It seems we are stricter than our martial ancesters. Are we better?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

So you have 23 years in? 10th dan is almost inpossible. What rank is your headmaster and how many years in does he have?

Overall, I think that is average but rank and belts are a relaitively new concept not more than 100 + or - years old given Kano created Judo and was the first to use the belt system. Funokoshi was a Master I think around the age of 20 and "recognized" by a Kendo organization.

What was the rank and TIG for Ryu Ryu Ko and Kanryo Higaonna? And what were the ranks and TIG for Shinjo Choken and Tode Sakugawa? They were all the foremost authorities of nearly all Karate and some will argue all.

It seems we are stricter than our martial ancesters. Are we better?

Actually I am the headmaster of my system since I founded the school of thought. However I truly believe one can not recreate the arts, only found schools of thought. Under my first instructor is when it was originally founded only under another name. He was a 10th dan and was the advisor and supervisoer to its creation. A year ago he and I went separate ways for reasons I still don't know.

Now I have 2 main advisors for my system, both are 8th dan's with 40+ years in the martial arts.

Ok now the rank of the founders of karate jutsu (wasn't karate do whne it was founded) there was none. Rank and status were not the issue nor was it even an option. Are we better, well in some ways yes because experience over the years has made the arts better with age, however the flipside to that is no we are not. To much flash in the arts today has taken way from its original intentions. I agree the martial arts community is stricter today than ever before from what I have been able to tell not really. Some organizations are not strict enough and others are to much so. It really depends on the organization and situation.

As far as a 10th dan being almost impossible I don't under why that is. However that is the furthest thing from my mind and least of my concerns.

Sorry I didn't understand what you were referring to when talking about TIG.

Hope that answeres your questions.

 

[Blindside]

It seems we are stricter than our martial ancesters. Are we better?

Nope, just trying to slow down the blatant rank inflation.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Look at the guys who never held certain grades not even by paper. I know of a guy who was promoted from 3rd dan to 8th dan then tested for a 4th dan with his own instructor one year later. My old instructor did that. Then 2 years later was promoted to 10th dan without ever holding a 9th dan. I know this was one of the issues between my old instructor and I.

 

[terryl965]

I believe rank only means two thing to the serious Martial Artist and that is one it really means nothing at all for you do not need it to be a true MA and two any true MA'ist only cares about it as an after thought.

I rarely care who holds what rank but rather who holds the true knowledge of there respected system.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Nope, just trying to slow down the blatant rank inflation.

I don't think it could or would do any good. I often use this story to illustrate just how bad rank and obtaining it can be. At the time this took place, I was a 3rd Dan KKW and senior instructor at a school owned by a Korean Master. A new blue belt, who also was a young Korean, early to mid twenties, came into the dojang and I was told to show him all the hyungs up to and including 3rd Dan. About a month and a half went by, everyday training, 2 sessions and he didn't show up any longer. Didn't really think a whole lot about it until 6 months later at a tournament. This blue belt was now being introduced at the Masters table as a 4th Dan and every Master at the table was Korean and they all smiled and applauded and acknowledged his rank. All this was done with the blessings of the home office, I assume, for he was now running an affiliate school under my Masters banner and there were Kukkiwon certs on his wall. This is when I lost all respect for ranks and those that hide behind so-called legit organizations and bypass procedures, for the sake of taking care of one of their own, just to MAKE MONEY. There are so many weak and phoney instructors and masters and grand masters out there that it just makes the arts look sick. I know, a rant, but I thought it fit the subject.

 

[James Kovacich]

Actually I am the headmaster of my system since I founded the school of thought. However I truly believe one can not recreate the arts, only found schools of thought. Under my first instructor is when it was originally founded only under another name. He was a 10th dan and was the advisor and supervisoer to its creation. A year ago he and I went separate ways for reasons I still don't know.

Now I have 2 main advisors for my system, both are 8th dan's with 40+ years in the martial arts.

Ok now the rank of the founders of karate jutsu (wasn't karate do whne it was founded) there was none. Rank and status were not the issue nor was it even an option. Are we better, well in some ways yes because experience over the years has made the arts better with age, however the flipside to that is no we are not. To much flash in the arts today has taken way from its original intentions. I agree the martial arts community is stricter today than ever before from what I have been able to tell not really. Some organizations are not strict enough and others are to much so. It really depends on the organization and situation.

As far as a 10th dan being almost impossible I don't under why that is. However that is the furthest thing from my mind and least of my concerns.

Sorry I didn't understand what you were referring to when talking about TIG.

Hope that answeres your questions.

TIG is time in grade and I said 10th dan was nearly impossible because 57 years time in grade is nearly impossible.

I'm not attacking you or your system. I'm just working with your examples and trying to show that their can't be standard.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I know you are not attacking me but it sure is making for a interesting discusssion and a very intelligent one at that. I love conversations like this. I agree a set standard is really difficult I personally believe it should be based on the person. I have a student who is very intelligent and athletic from what I can see now he could potenitally make shodan in 2 - 2 1/2 years. But thats not the norm by any means. Look at me I have been in the arts since I was 7 now 30 I have not worked a full time job ever because of my dedication to the arts. But can everyone do that? No way I am lucky enough to have been able to run my own business since I was 20.

Just so ya know I took a look at your website. I think you have aligned yourself with a very powerful organization under Hanshi Angel. Good luck to you!!

 

[wade]

Brad, it does happen, it's wrong but it does happen. This is a true story and in advance I want to tell every one that no I am not a raceist nor am I bashing Koreans. I was at a tournament a few years back and they had all the masters setting at the front of the gym. Well, all the round eyes were sitting on the floor below the stage. They were all masters of the local school system (this system has about 10 or more schools under their banner and are very successful in what they do). On the stage were all the KKW masters. Well, there I was, at the end of a line of about 20 Korean Masters. No, I am not a member of this system. Anyway, a couple of the Korean Masters were a little peaved because I was up there with them till they found I that I out ranked all of them. It was a small thing but I have to admit I sure did enjoy it. RHIP, and in situations like this I will take advantage of it. To every one else, I still go by Wade.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Wade,
Thats poetic justice. Good story!!