What is a black belt test in your art like?

[CMack11]

I'm not going to get into the details of arguing this, because all of you have much more experience than I do when it comes to martial arts, but the outside induction of stress like this isn't really that unusual in the sports world.

Nearly every practice in football and basketball is conducted in a similar format. Conditioning first, strategy second. We would always get our active drills in at the beginning of practice, and scrimmage situations at the end, so you're going through the 'game type' situations when you're tired. The philosophy was that you would be able to execute in the 4th quarter, when it really mattered.

 

[7starmantis]

I know you weren't talking to me specifically. Although, what do you do with someone who can't run that distance due to problems outside their control? As I stated my knee doesn't let me run that far. Does someone not achieve the rank of black due to the lack of being able to run? You can't test them on their knowledge and how they teach in class? Judged by their piers? Judged by the attitude? Judged by commiting themselves to the martial arts? That's what a test is and should be. :asian:

Well, our focus is on fighting, and being unable to run that distance does put a hindrance on your fighting (whatever stops you from running will cause problems in your fighting). We have let a couple run on a treadmill rather than outside, but yes, if someone can't perform whats required, they are unable to achieve that "rank". I'm sure if someone really pushed themselves, and really trained hard and just couldn't run, sifu would think of a way to incorporate something else for them. We had a guy in a wheel chair training for a while, but he was even least interested in belts than I am (and thats pretty low interest). In our school, knowledge, teaching (our black belts do not teach), piers oppinions, attitude, and commitment dont mean anything if you can't fight. If you can't apply it in a real situation, it means nothing. We are a very physically focused school, while all of those things may make us work with you, or help you adapt to what your body can do, they cary no weight in an advanced test. Our tests are strictly physical skill. I know alot of people who are committed to the martial arts who have crappy skill. Just because of their commitment they should receive ranking? See, in reality a black "belt" or "sash" means little to nothing at our school except that you have pushed yourself past that hurdle and are really here to learn and increase your skill.

Like I said, just a different focus and goal.

7sm

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

In my Kenpo school, the Black Belt test typically lasted 5 to 8 years. By the time you were ready for your Black Belt, everybody knew you, knew what you could do, and knew what you couldn't do.

The actual "test" was somewhat of a formality. 8 Katas, A "Star" of basics executed at full speed, an 8-man mass-attack executed full-speed solo, a "Thesis" kata of your own invention, and a written thesis previewed by the testing panel and read aloud by the candidate. The tests were individual, closed door. Testing panel was the school owner, the head instructor, and the student's instructor. Maybe one or two other Black Belts as well. Test was followed by a casual pizza dinner and some beer.

In the BJJ school, no tests. Just surprise belt promotions after 6+ years of hard work and visibile proficiency.

 

[Sam]

What does running have to do with a Dan test? Unless running away is part of your self defense program.

You probably didn't mean this the way it sounded, but it bothers me nonetheless so I have to ask.

Why wouldn't running be a part of your self defense program? It's the most common form of self defense, and probably one of the safest (other than not getting yourself in yucky situations to begin with). I'm not a particulary large person, and if I'm in a situation I don't want to be in with some 240 lb 6 foot 2 nasty drunk, why shouldn't I run? That guy would be huge, I could out-run him in a heart beat.

It'd be incredibly stupid to fight someone you could out run, as well as irresponsible. Why take the effort to fight them and possibly do really bad damage to someone (even if they 'deserve' it) if unnecessary?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Samantha,

What I mean is running should not be part of an actual Dan test. Running is good self defense, if it is an option. But a Dan test should demonstrate your knowledge of the techniques your style practices at a certain level. Running is running. If I were a TSD judge, I'd want to see your form, your overall technique, your sparring, perhaps some self defense, some breaking, and maybe ask you some questions. The fact that you can run a mile in under 10 minutes is nice, but not relevant to the test itself.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Well, our focus is on fighting, and being unable to run that distance does put a hindrance on your fighting (whatever stops you from running will cause problems in your fighting). We have let a couple run on a treadmill rather than outside, but yes, if someone can't perform whats required, they are unable to achieve that "rank". I'm sure if someone really pushed themselves, and really trained hard and just couldn't run, sifu would think of a way to incorporate something else for them. We had a guy in a wheel chair training for a while, but he was even least interested in belts than I am (and thats pretty low interest). In our school, knowledge, teaching (our black belts do not teach), piers oppinions, attitude, and commitment dont mean anything if you can't fight. If you can't apply it in a real situation, it means nothing. We are a very physically focused school, while all of those things may make us work with you, or help you adapt to what your body can do, they cary no weight in an advanced test. Our tests are strictly physical skill. I know alot of people who are committed to the martial arts who have crappy skill. Just because of their commitment they should receive ranking? See, in reality a black "belt" or "sash" means little to nothing at our school except that you have pushed yourself past that hurdle and are really here to learn and increase your skill.

Like I said, just a different focus and goal.

7sm

I'm curious as to why you need to run to test the endurance of your students. At my test everyone was dripping sweat at the end of the first 15 minutes at the end of two hours we were exhilerated but rubbery with fatigue. As OFK pointed out the real test is the matt time preceding the test. I respect everyone's right to choose how long to do the test but wonder if anything can be learned after the first 2 hours that isn't already known.

Jeff

 

[7starmantis]

Samantha,

What I mean is running should not be part of an actual Dan test. Running is good self defense, if it is an option. But a Dan test should demonstrate your knowledge of the techniques your style practices at a certain level. Running is running. If I were a TSD judge, I'd want to see your form, your overall technique, your sparring, perhaps some self defense, some breaking, and maybe ask you some questions. The fact that you can run a mile in under 10 minutes is nice, but not relevant to the test itself.

Not relevant to your test, very relevent to my test. Knowledge is nothing if you can't apply it in a stressful situation. Oh, and 10 minutes is way too slow, try 6 minutes.

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

Please don't take this as a smart *** comment here but what is or what do you do in 7star praying mantis kung fu? I don't know anything about your art and never heard of it until your group started on MT. I'm asking because I would like to know why you train in that particular art and what you do. :asian:

I agree with MichiganTKD. Your tests should be based upon skill, knowledge, and execution of self defense techniques, forms, basics, verbal questioning, application and so forth.

If your group requires a half marathon, full marathon, 5K, 10K; cool, it's ok with me as long as it is for you guys. Conditioning is obviously good and important but doesn't belong in the test.

As for belts I'm not so concerned about those as well. I have enough years in to know by watching what is good and what is not. As one wise man once said, "Just because the red shows doens't mean you know".

 

[MichiganTKD]

That's why it is a Martial Arts test. Now, if I were training for the U.S Olympic track team, of course they'd time my distance and speed. That's what I'd be training for-to be faster than the guy next to me.

 

[CMack11]

That's why it is a Martial Arts test. Now, if I were training for the U.S Olympic track team, of course they'd time my distance and speed. That's what I'd be training for-to be faster than the guy next to me.

MichiganTKD, could you please explain to me why it's a bad idea to wear somebody out before you test them? The point of the running prior to the test isn't to see if somebody can make a 4-minute mile. The point is to try and get them fatigued before they test. It's a mental factor that 7* mantis teachers add because they like to test their students after they are a little worn out. I'd like to hear, in your words, why you think that's a bad idea.

Would you shun another TKD instructor because they did this? If so, then why? They are still being tested on the same material that you tested on. They are just inducing a little fatigue in the mix.

Jcoffman--http://www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/

It isn't the neatest webpage in the world, but this is a page from a person in the same kung fu family as 7* and myself.

 

[CMack11]

And like I said before--this type of thing isn't anything new. It's common practice in nearly every major sport.

As per my above post--"Nearly every practice in football and basketball is conducted in a similar format. Conditioning first, strategy second. We would always get our active drills in at the beginning of practice, and scrimmage situations at the end, so you're going through the 'game type' situations when you're tired. The philosophy was that you would be able to execute in the 4th quarter, when it really mattered."

 

[7starmantis]

I'm curious as to why you need to run to test the endurance of your students. At my test everyone was dripping sweat at the end of the first 15 minutes at the end of two hours we were exhilerated but rubbery with fatigue. As OFK pointed out the real test is the matt time preceding the test. I respect everyone's right to choose how long to do the test but wonder if anything can be learned after the first 2 hours that isn't already known.

You dont have to, but you can't understand it until you sit in a 10 minute horse stance low enough for a staff to sit across your knees, then jump up and immediately run 5 miles. Immediately following you play all the forms you know, empty hand and weapon in low stances. I would like to see how your legs felt after that. ("You" as in a generic title for people in general) Then you have to fight. See, we focus heavily on leg strength and stamina, this is just one way to quickly push yourself. The run combined with the horse stance hits different muscles in your legs and really drains them. I would be hard pressed to find a way to drain my legs quicker or harder. Sweating isn't neccessarily being completely exhausted. Its hard to explain without having done it. I learn alot about myself, my technique and my skill after the first 2 hours.

Please don't take this as a smart *** comment here but what is or what do you do in 7star praying mantis kung fu? I don't know anything about your art and never heard of it until your group started on MT. I'm asking because I would like to know why you train in that particular art and what you do. :asian:

No problem, it would take quite a bit to explain here. Let me send you to this article about the history and concpet of mantis.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=284733&postcount=10

I agree with MichiganTKD. Your tests should be based upon skill, knowledge, and execution of self defense techniques, forms, basics, verbal questioning, application and so forth.

I agree with the skill, execution, application.

7sm

 

[MJS]

I had to run for my first degree black. Your first black belt test is IMO one of the most exhausting and demanding, both physically and mentally. The run is just a part of that. Doing a run, and then having to go through numerous basics, SD, kata, sparring, etc., is common in many schools. The tests that I have seen are designed to push the student. The inst. wants to push the student to see how far they can go before they start to slow down.

Mike

 

[MJS]

MichiganTKD, could you please explain to me why it's a bad idea to wear somebody out before you test them? The point of the running prior to the test isn't to see if somebody can make a 4-minute mile. The point is to try and get them fatigued before they test. It's a mental factor that 7* mantis teachers add because they like to test their students after they are a little worn out. I'd like to hear, in your words, why you think that's a bad idea.

Would you shun another TKD instructor because they did this? If so, then why? They are still being tested on the same material that you tested on. They are just inducing a little fatigue in the mix.

Jcoffman--http://www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/

It isn't the neatest webpage in the world, but this is a page from a person in the same kung fu family as 7* and myself.

Good post!! All tests are going to be different. All instructors are going to conduct the test the way they see fit. Just because TKD, TSD, or whatever other art does not do it, it does not make the 7sm test bad because they do this. Its obviously something that the inst. wants to do.

You made a good point, and as I said in my post, the idea of the run, the idea of the countless reps. of punches and kicks, the countless sets of kicks, the numerous rounds of sparring, the heavy bag work...all of this is designed to be physically demanding on the student.

Mike

 

[MichiganTKD]

I'm not saying running in itself is bad. Running should be a training tool, not part of the test itself. In our tests, our Dan students have to fight at least three times. They are nervous, which they must be able to overcome, they are fighting other testers who want to pass as badly as they do, and Dan students who will make them earn their rank. Aside from pushing them, making them perform forms and fight forces them to demonstrate why the judges should let them pass. Every organization has their own rules, but I don't consider running a test of martial skill.

 

[Sam]

you guys are saying the same things over and over again.

Can this thread go back to "what a black belt test in your art" is like?

 

[47MartialMan]

I can tell you how the different levels of black is like in one of the syetms that I had studied.

 

[Sam]

ok, so tell us?

 

[7starmantis]

Here we go

 

[47MartialMan]

Hmmmnnn, sounds like some one is being sardonic. Such a offensive display. For the sake of one poster whom was sincere-I will reply.

I (our family) had changed residency often because my father was traveling around on business alot. In a small town in the State of Louisiana, I met a local martial artist that created his own system after 20 years or more-so. He had two primary instructors. A Master named Osatumura and a Master named Glover (I think I have their names spelled correctly.) I was looking for a school close by that I can continue martial art practice.

He had a unusual black belt test, but more unusual was further black belt level tests. Part of the test/study/phases was:

For anyone to get 1st Level (aka some will call dan) there was a sparring square taped on the floor. It was approx, if memoirs serve, 11x11. The testing "canidate" would be placed in the square and there will be two other black belters, (aggressors) mainly 1st level themselves, on the outside of the square.

The two on the outside will make every effort, using any means, to get the "candidate" on the inside to move, fall, or step-become outside. Anything goes.

There was a limitation per time. The "candiate" was not wearing any protective gear, but the outside aggressors, were. The theory behind this was that a confrontation would not last a given length of time. And the "candiate" had to strike a little harder in order to keep the aggressors at "bay". If the "candiate" should get ouside, then "grade" points would be taken away from a starting tally in the beginning of all of the testing phases.

Should the "candiate" get outside, for whatever reason, three times, there was a immediate disqualification and the whole tesing procedure with its many phases, repeated in a furture scheduling.

If the candiate passed and awarded rank, then a schedule would be made for the newly ranked "candiate" to prepare and test for the next level.

The 2nd Level, was almost the same as the 1st, with the exception of a liitle more information to be tested on and the sparring square would be lessor, 10x10, and there would be one extra outside aggressor, making a total of three.

For each level after that, the sparring square would get smaller and a additonal aggressor would be added. The time, for the sake of endurance, would be longer.

I had only made into 3rd Level in that. Many contusions/injuries were sustained from both "sides" of the sparring square. In the early years, the square was a circle, chalked. But the circumferance was not accurate.

Last, I resent acerbic posts made in such a manner. I consider it an insult to my ability and/or experiences. I could retort in a ill manner, but I will remain collective.